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  1. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come on. That's like saying it scans GPS positions of Android phones on train 569, then calculates it's 30 minute late and sends an alert out to all the people with Androids waiting for train 569, by their GPS position that it's 30 minutes late according to their latest Crowd Source data calculations.
    Actually, that's exactly what happens. For traffic at least. If you're route is seeing slow traffic And Google has that info, you get an alert.

    I've only used the transit feature once in Chicago. The train showed up exactly when Google Transit said it would though.
  2. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by JerseySal View Post
    Oh look. My phone is telling me where I'm at, what surrounds me, and where I should go and what I should do next...as if my eyes, ears, and brain, don't work anymore
    If your eyes, ears and brain were all that one needed to get to where they were going, and knowing what to do once they got there the travel guide industry would have never existed.

    Further, neither MS or Nokia would have wasted all of that money creating map, navigation and local apps.

    Google Now has little to do with your statement though. It would be more prudent to use Navigation and Local. Now would only show you reminders of places that you've actually searched for if you have Places enabled in settings.
  3. tk-093's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come on. That's like saying it scans GPS positions of Android phones on train 569, then calculates it's 30 minute late and sends an alert out to all the people with Androids waiting for train 569, by their GPS position that it's 30 minutes late according to their latest Crowd Source data calculations.
    Who said they were doing it on trains? We are talking about traffic.

    Here you go: Real-time traffic returns to Google Maps directions - GadgetBox on NBCNews.com
  4. tk-093's Avatar
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    #54  
    Holy smokes. I'm not sure how I feel about what just happened, but it’s timely to our discussion.. A few minutes ago I googled a restaurant on my PC. I didn’t realized I was signed into my Google account but I guess I am. (I only have a google account as a necessary evil to use Android and I’m using Android because I support our mobile users and we use Good and there is no Good on WP8 yet.)

    Anyway, I just now notice that I have a Google Now card with that restaurant and an ETA. (2+ hours away, I have no plans to go there.)

    It’s kinda cool, but I dunno. Why would it think I’m planning on eating at a place 142 miles away?
  5. palandri's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by tk-093 View Post
    Who said they were doing it on trains? We are talking about traffic.

    Here you go: Real-time traffic returns to Google Maps directions - GadgetBox on NBCNews.com
    Everyone is talking about how smart Google Now is, so it should be out calculating everything for everybody, by car, train, plane or boat. I read Athima Chansanchai article, who is she? Sure it can combine user data, with other 3rd party data available. Trust me, it doesn't have a brain of it's own.
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  6. tk-093's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Everyone is talking about how smart Google Now is, so it should be out calculating everything for everybody, by car, train, plane or boat. I read Athima Chansanchai article, who is she? Sure it can combine user data, with other 3rd party data available. Trust me, it doesn't have a brain of it's own.
    Maybe it does, I only travel by car. :)

    Who is Athima? I don't have a clue, I could care less. She's just writing about what came from a Google Blog about how they do traffic.
    http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/...n-traffic.html
    palandri likes this.
  7. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Aside from app size and overhead of a client side app doing all of this work on my device, there's storage and a real risk of data from phone to tablet being different. You have your preferences and I have mine, but if client side (on phone and tablet) were so easy it would already be done by MS, BlackBerry and Apple.
    Your position was that Microsoft can't possibly implement those three features you mentioned in post #34. I explained why Microsoft can, and you've begrudgingly admitted that is true (not easy, but possible). End of story.

    Apparently, you have preferences in regard to where profiling occurs, but your preferences don't make the alternatives impossible. While I agree with your reasoning to a degree, you are stretching a bit too far to rationalize your preference. The computational resources required to profile an e-mail and store the results are barely relevant. Yes, implementing such software requires some serious skills... but the complexity of these programs manifests itself at design time, not at runtime. It's nothing like simulating weather patterns or nuclear explosions. The only people who need a datacentre to profile e-mails are those that profile billions of them each day and store the results for later use. Profiling a few dozen e-mails a day would barely register as a blip on a smartphone CPU's daily schedule.

    However, if you insist, Microsoft could also profile our e-mails exactly the same way Google does. I see no problem with that. The only thing Microsoft needs to worry about, to avoid looking hypocritical (I'm assuming that is your problem with the Scroogle campaign), is where the results are stored. IMHO, as long as the results of profiling our personal information are stored on our personal devices, Microsoft is just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    MS is already scanning your email and storing that information on their servers.
    Maybe they are. I certainly don't know what every last Microsoft employee is up to at all times. But as of now, and to the best of my knowledge, they do not. Have you got a source?

    Even if Microsoft did do both, it only concerns me if I can't control what data is being handed out to whom. As long as my personal data isn't being made available to third parties (which is what Google legally reserves the right to do, but Microsoft doesn't), then I don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    To compete with Google Now MS would have to unify your profile within the service to bring it all together...
    That is another statement that requires backing up. I don't believe that to be true, but I reserve the right to change my mind if you can explain why... IMHO, just as before, the requirement is only that information can be brought together from various services. Precisely where it is brought together isn't important.

    As for the rest of your statements, I appreciate reading them, but I don't think either of us need spend time debating them, as we are unlikely to convince each other of much.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-15-2013 at 10:27 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  8. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Your position was that Microsoft can't possibly implement those three features you mentioned in post #34. I explained why Microsoft can, and you've begrudgingly admitted that is true (not easy, but possible). End of story.
    Not the end of the story. Possible does not mean feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Profiling a few dozen e-mails a day would barely register as a blip on a smartphone CPU's daily schedule.
    But it's not just email. It's search history, location history, calendar entries and on and on and on.

    However, if you insist, Microsoft could also profile our e-mails exactly the same way Google does. I see no problem with that.
    Neither do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    The only thing Microsoft needs to worry about, to avoid looking hypocritical (I'm assuming that is your problem with the Scroogle campaign), is where the results are stored. IMHO, as long as the results of profiling our personal information are stored on our personal devices, Microsoft is just fine.
    That's not how it happens.

    Maybe they are. I certainly don't know what every last Microsoft employee is up to at all times. But as of now, and to the best of my knowledge, they do not. Have you got a source?
    Go to Outlook.com and search your email for a subject that you know exists in your email archive. Where do you think those results came from? Your mail is scanned, indexed and that info is stored on the MS side.

    Don't take my word for it though, read this from Scroogled:

    Outlook.com only scans the contents of your email to help protect you and display, categorize, and sort your mail appropriately.

    Machine scanned, indexed and stored.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Even if Microsoft did do both, it only concerns me if I can't control what data is being handed out to whom. As long as my personal data isn't being made available to third parties (which is what Google legally reserves the right to do, but Microsoft doesn't), then I don't care.
    Actually, Google's privacy policy states pretty clearly that your consent is required before they share your information with any outside company. They've never asked me for that permission, so they've never shared it.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    That is another statement that requires backing up. I don't believe that to be true, but I reserve the right to change my mind if you can explain why... IMHO, just as before, the requirement is only that information can be brought together from various services. Precisely where it is brought together isn't important.
    Bing Now would have to unify your information in one common interface to present it in a useful way.
  9. falconrap's Avatar
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    #59  
    I'll be brutally honest...this reminds me of all the annoying emails I get from places like Amazon.com trying to send me information they think is relevant too me because I searched for something once on their site. This is just more extraneous information being jammed in your face. Worse still, it shows how much Google is willing and capable of conglomerating all of your search history and targeting you (i.e they are making even more money off you and know more about you than you may really want them to know). I get the geek factor in all of this. I do. But I prefer getting information when I want it and how, not how some algorithm thinks I want it, and when.
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  10. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Not the end of the story. Possible does not mean feasible.
    Ok, but as long as possible means possible, I'm okay with that. Nothing anyone can say will convince you it is feasible (someone must do it), so we might as well leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    But it's not just email. It's search history, location history, calendar entries and on and on and on.
    You are not seriously suggesting that any of those things are insurmountable obstacles, are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Go to Outlook.com and search your email for a subject that you know exists in your email archive. Where do you think those results came from? Your mail is scanned, indexed and that info is stored on the MS side.
    lol, okay, you got me. However, what people are concerned about is profiling. Profiling also involves scanning, indexing and storing, and in the context of this discussion, that is what I thought you were referring to. I don't think anybody cares about the types of processing you mentioned. If that was all Google did, they would have gone bankrupt long ago. But I'll give you that, Microsoft does need to give us the ability to sort and search our own e-mails.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Actually, Google's privacy policy states pretty clearly that your consent is required before they share your information with any outside company. They've never asked me for that permission, so they've never shared it.
    Yes, I saw that. However, since I'm a software engineer and not a legal expert, I won't argue with you on this one. It is my understanding that Google does ask you for permission. They do so every time you sign up for a new service. You grant them permission every time you tick the "accept terms of service" checkbox. They certainly aren't going to ring you up and ask you in person now, are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Bing Now would have to unify your information in one common interface to present it in a useful way.
    Yes, a common interface is required. I agree. At least I can't imagine what an alternative would look like. However, a unified interface doesn't necessitate a unified data repository. That should be obvious and it is also the basis for most of my argument.
  11. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    You are not seriously suggesting that any of those things are insurmountable obstacles, are you?
    When you want my phone or tablet to do all of that processing and storage, yeah, I think that's a pretty tall mountain to climb.

    As for the whole legal thing, you made a statement that Google is claiming the legal right to share info with 3rd parties, then you said you're not a lawyer. We'll just leave that there.
  12. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    , a common interface is required. I agree. At least I can't imagine what an alternative would look like. However, a unified interface doesn't necessitate a unified data repository. That should be obvious and it is also the basis for most of my argument.
    So, this Bing Now app that would run on my phone, instead of having data pushed to it, would have to go out and poll these disparate data sources to collect the information that it needs to be useful? Polling increases CPU cycles, reduces battery life, increases storage and data usage. I like your idea less and less as we go.
  13. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Profiling also involves scanning, indexing and storing, and in the context of this discussion, that is what I thought you were referring to.
    If it weren't damn neat 3 in the morning, I would have made these points all at once.

    Microsoft does absolutely profile you for advertising purposes. I guess it's Ok that they go so far as to pull in your Experian profile to better match you and ads up because they lay off of your email.

    FFS, this whole "only Google profiles people to sell ads against" is old, tired and wrong.

    Your MS profile doesn't just include your online life, they pull in your offline life as well.

    http://advertising.microsoft.com/profile-targeting

    Yes, Google builds profiles of their users and they sell ads against it. So does Microsoft. Go ahead, this is the part where you tell me that Microsoft's way is better because they don't scan your email for ads. Your MS ad profile is pretty complete without it.
  14. tgp
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Originally Posted by arrowrand
    MS is already scanning your email and storing that information on their servers.

    Maybe they are. I certainly don't know what every last Microsoft employee is up to at all times. But as of now, and to the best of my knowledge, they do not.
    I don't know what Microsoft employees are up to at all times either, but I'm sure they're not scanning emails. However, neither are Google's employees. Do you really think the emails are scanned manually? While I found humor in the Scroogled campaign ads, I did think they were a bit deceptive in giving the impression that Google emails are read by humans. I'm guessing that few, if any, messages are ever read unless they're turned over to the government.
  15. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by tgp View Post
    Do you really think the emails are scanned manually?
    This discussion revolves partly around the question of whether that scanning process is automatable on consumers' devices, or if it is only automatable on Google's servers. That sufficiently demonstrates that nobody here believes anything that silly. Does it not?
  16. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    So, this Bing Now app that would run on my phone, instead of having data pushed to it, would have to go out and poll these disparate data sources to collect the information that it needs to be useful? Polling increases CPU cycles, reduces battery life, increases storage and data usage. I like your idea less and less as we go.
    It seems we have decided to assign Google Now to the far left corner, representing the server-only approach, and a hypothetical Bing Now to the far right corner, representing a client-only approach. As if both must necessarily occupy positions on polar opposites of the server- / client-side spectrum. I doubt this is an accurate representation of how Google Now actually works. Google Now doesn't necessarily have to be (and likely isn't) a purely server-side solution. My point is, that we mustn't necessarily picture a hypothetical Bing Now as a purely client-side solution either. I suspect that is what you are doing, and that is why you believe Bing Now would have a problem polling data from disparate data sources. You are unnecessarily restricting your own creative thinking process.

    All the data required to recreate the "intelligent" part of Google Now is already synced to all our devices. Mails, calendar data, GPS location, search history, etc... no polling is required beyond what is already common practice. For any other data, a hypothetical Bing Now could easily register with a Microsoft server to receive push notifications whenever necessary, e.g. when flight information for a particular flight is updated.

    Anyway, my goal wasn't to make you like a particular solution. It was only to show that other solutions exist.

    The original assumption was that Microsoft has no chance of recreating the Google Now experience, because they don't aggregate the same amount of user data on their servers. This is the only unimaginative silliness I'm attempting to debunk. A vast number of solutions exist between the two extremes we've been discussing (we have, after all, long entered the age of distributed computing), and I'm sure not just one or two of those solutions are plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    As for the whole legal thing, you made a statement that Google is claiming the legal right to share info with 3rd parties, then you said you're not a lawyer. We'll just leave that there.
    Based on that cheap shot answer, I can only assume you aren't a lawyer either, as I'm sure someone who actually knew what they were talking about could easily convince me I'm wrong. I've read Google's legal mumbo jumbo. I was just trying to explain what my simple self came away understanding. I had hoped that you, being amongst the strongest resident Google supporters around, might have been motivated enough to do more research, but obviously I was mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Go ahead, this is the part where you tell me that Microsoft's way is better because they don't scan your email for ads.
    Look arrowrand, I know this is your favourite topic, but I really couldn't care less about it. I think this just wastes our time. Why? Because it is none of your business where I draw the line when it comes to my personal privacy. That is everyone's own personal choice to make. Not yours. For me, profiling my mails goes beyond what I am willing to accept.

    I know you care nothing about your own privacy. I know you also care nothing about the privacy of your friends and family members who send mails to your gmail accounts. I do care. Deal with it.

    I hope you will now finally stop trying to steer the discussion towards this topic.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-18-2013 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Spelling only
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  17. palandri's Avatar
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    #67  
    I am trying to get bumpers for my Nexus 4, and every time i check for them I get this message:

    Nexus 4 Bumper (Black)
    $19.99
    Temporarily Out of Stock
    We are out of inventory. Please check back soon.

    Why can't it just tell me when they're in stock so I don't waste time checking all the time? Maybe they're too busy calculating drive times.
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  18. arrowrand's Avatar
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    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    I know you care nothing about your own privacy. I know you also care nothing about the privacy of your friends and family members who send mails to your gmail accounts. I do care. Deal with it.
    That's laughable. That's a guy that having his emails machine scanned and indexed by one company wagging his finger at a guy having his emails machine indexed and scanned by another company.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    I hope you will now finally stop trying to steer the discussion towards this topic.
    Said the guy pulling the wheel in the other direction.
  19. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    That's laughable. That's a guy that having his emails machine scanned and indexed by one company wagging his finger at a guy having his emails machine indexed and scanned by another company.
    As previously stated, what now feels like a dozen times, I don't care if my mails are "indexed and scanned". I do care if that is being done with the intent of profiling the account owner. If you ever want to get back to the actual topic, I'll do that too.
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    #70  
    People are pathetic.
    ~Sal
  21. Chetan Takyar's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by sirgrant618 View Post
    Yeah, I won't lie, feeling pretty bummed out about google now and how much better it is than anything currently offered on WP.

    I will say that the thing that attracted me to WP is the UI, but the feature set of Android is very compelling. I just wish it weren't so ugly.
    Look at stock Android on the Nexus 4, it's beautiful.
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    I'll be brutally honest...this reminds me of all the annoying emails I get from places like Amazon.com trying to send me information they think is relevant too me because I searched for something once on their site. This is just more extraneous information being jammed in your face. Worse still, it shows how much Google is willing and capable of conglomerating all of your search history and targeting you (i.e they are making even more money off you and know more about you than you may really want them to know). I get the geek factor in all of this. I do. But I prefer getting information when I want it and how, not how some algorithm thinks I want it, and when.
    I can tell you've never used Google Now. Because you wouldn't be saying this if you have.
  23. palandri's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by return_0 View Post
    I can tell you've never used Google Now. Because you wouldn't be saying this if you have.
    It depends on his settings. I get recent searches when I bring up maps. I eat at a restaurant and it will ask me to do a review of that restaurant.
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  24. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by sirgrant618 View Post
    Yeah, I won't lie, feeling pretty bummed out about google now and how much better it is than anything currently offered on WP.

    I will say that the thing that attracted me to WP is the UI, but the feature set of Android is very compelling. I just wish it weren't so ugly.
    EXACTLY what I think. I just wish Android was not so much UGLY, In android, the action buttons are just anywhere, sometimes on top right corner, sometimes in bottom corner, and the new CARD UI, it is so difficult to precisely press the 3 dots.

    In WP, all buttons are at bottom and all apps follow design language.

    I wish Google brings Maps (I want better than Gmaps Pro).

    And Google Now is an UPDATE to Google search app, so if WP gets more users, Google might UPDATE the WP search app to Google Now, just like IOS.
  25. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chetan Takyar View Post
    Look at stock Android on the Nexus 4, it's beautiful.
    But many apps still don't follow HOLO UI.

    Even in Holo apps, Menu button placement just varies app to app.
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