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  1. 1101x10's Avatar
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    #26  
    Best of luck sorting this out.
  2. Jazmac's Avatar
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    #27  
    What are the odds bumping into this thread? I decided to finally check out this app on my phone but stopped here first and I didn't expect this. Now I don't know which side is right but until this is ironed out, I'm removing InPic.
  3. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
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    #28  
    It's kind of well known that Daniel Gary of 'Instance' helped out the developer of InPic, so there's no mystery or "stolen code" there. Regarding the rest, it's not my place to get in the middle of a pissing match between developers, especially developers who are reverse engineering aka borderline hacking proprietary APIs.

    As far as I'm concerned, you're all engaging in somewhat illicit activity, so to be calling someone out for the same seems...ironic.
    Daniel Rubino
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    afgzee, zhoulhas and Sagar187 like this.
  4. HarisA1's Avatar
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    #29  
    This is pretty exciting to be honest. But I been a day 1 supporter of LastBattle!
  5. danviicente's Avatar
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    #30  
    InstaPic deleted on my Windows 8!
  6. Jas00555's Avatar
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    #31  
    Does that mean there's no instagram for Windows 8 now?
  7. LazywormApps's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by LastBattle View Post
    I just want to rant out my concerns, as I've made a discovery today regarding InPic's (Applify) shady practices during the production of the application. As a developer myself, this is totally unacceptable as they were one of the reputable developer around. I couldn't believe it myself as they have released a high quality YouTube app on the Windows 8 store, PrimeTube.

    The team at applyf have been using Metrotube as a blueprint for PrimeTube for some time now... at least from a design perspective. Your findings don't surprise us at all.

    We've just had to grin and bare it as there isn't much we can do :(

    Take it as a compliment and continue innovating would be our advice!
  8. sueha's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rubino View Post
    It's kind of well known that Daniel Gary of 'Instance' helped out the developer of InPic, so there's no mystery or "stolen code" there. Regarding the rest, it's not my place to get in the middle of a pissing match between developers, especially developers who are reverse engineering aka borderline hacking proprietary APIs.

    As far as I'm concerned, you're all engaging in somewhat illicit activity, so to be calling someone out for the same seems...ironic.
    I can imagine that Daniel Gary helped the developer of InPic. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the developer didn't steal code from other apps at all (without Gary being involved).

    Regarding your last sentence: Developers helped the WP community by providing apps which the actual service operator could not deliver. If done correctly, Instagram only benefits from these developers (see 6tag, they're fine with that and 6tag was the only reason I joined Instagram). Our interest is the growth of the platform and developers help that a lot by creating these apps. If somebody steals code from another developer just means adorning himself with borrowed plumes and in the end stealing money which should belong to the actual creator. We have no benefits from copycats. I cant believe how anybody could not be on #instawithmassivelove's side if this story is true!
    Phone: Nokia Lumia 920 (unlocked)
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  9. nimoranthu's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rubino View Post
    It's kind of well known that Daniel Gary of 'Instance' helped out the developer of InPic, so there's no mystery or "stolen code" there. Regarding the rest, it's not my place to get in the middle of a pissing match between developers, especially developers who are reverse engineering aka borderline hacking proprietary APIs.

    As far as I'm concerned, you're all engaging in somewhat illicit activity, so to be calling someone out for the same seems...ironic.
    It seems...ironic that you're taking this stance when you're the first to publicize these developers who engage in somewhat illicit activity. We all remember the mysterious Instagraph posts.
  10. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by sueha View Post
    I can imagine that Daniel Gary helped the developer of InPic. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the developer didn't steal code from other apps at all (without Gary being involved).

    Regarding your last sentence: Developers helped the WP community by providing apps which the actual service operator could not deliver. If done correctly, Instagram only benefits from these developers (see 6tag, they're fine with that and 6tag was the only reason I joined Instagram). Our interest is the growth of the platform and developers help that a lot by creating these apps. If somebody steals code from another developer just means adorning himself with borrowed plumes and in the end stealing money which should belong to the actual creator. We have no benefits from copycats. I cant believe how anybody could not be on #instawithmassivelove's side if this story is true!
    Quote Originally Posted by nimoranthu View Post
    It seems...ironic that you're taking this stance when you're the first to publicize these developers who engage in somewhat illicit activity. We all remember the mysterious Instagraph posts.
    Daniel's stance is what I stand with on this issue. As an editor if he runs a story of an app that the community benefits from - it is just his job. However, he is right in calling reverse engineering an illicit activity as far as proprietary APIs are concerned. Now, someone copying someone else's work which uses hacked APIs may be frowned upon by the community as a whole but asking Daniel to take sides on this? Nah.


    I like Lazywormapps' approach to this as they've taken a massive hit from many angles for their really awesome app since WP7 days. Even with Store mess ups I am one of those customers who is enjoying it for free now after paying for the app twice whereas my cousin has never paid for it and is enjoying the "free unlimited trial". So, write to MSFT as they can be impartial judge on this and definitely has guidelines on what is illicit activity on their store and meanwhile there doesn't seem to be a need to take sides and make this thread go in a direction where it shouldn't.
    Patient Windows Phone User since October 2010 till cores and apps do us apart.

    Read the rules before you post. If you post, we will assume you've read this already.
    nocta likes this.
  11. rudyhuyn's Avatar
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    #36  
    As you know,I'm the developer of 6tag, an other instagram app but I'm independant in this story, I don't personally know these developers (of 2insta and inpic) BUT if I ignore that I'm a instagram app developer, here is my opinion of a simple windows phone developer and windows phone fan.


    There is a huge difference between reverse engineering to study algorithms/securities and reverse engineering to copy/paste competitor source code. Moreover, this function is not an related to instagram API, it is just a html parser, it takes a html source code in input and output a summarize of the information in the html. So it is a copy/paste of a feature of the application, not of instagram, so forget about instagram in this story, it is just the story of a developer who discovered that an other developer stole his property.

    I checked the two source code and this function is just an example, there is other copy/paste in the code.

    So, in my opinion, it is really not cool for 2insta and a very wrong move of inpic.

    Other thing: I don't understand what Instance do here, it is only a story between InPic and 2InstaWithMassiveLove


    I know that developer stuff is complicated, so to make an analogy , it's is like if someone created a windows phone website.

    * read wpcentral articles and be inspirated to write their own articles: not good, not wrong, grey zone

    * Check the html source code and copy paste JavaScript & html to create it owns website: totally wrong
    Last edited by rudyhuyn; 10-02-2013 at 07:26 AM.
  12. Ultimateone's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimoranthu View Post
    It seems...ironic that you're taking this stance when you're the first to publicize these developers who engage in somewhat illicit activity. We all remember the mysterious Instagraph posts.
    Well think about how much click bait and views the site got whenever they ran an Instagram story back in the spring, I almost find it rude to hear him talk like that about these apps.
    sueha likes this.
  13. #38  
    I agree 100% with rudy.

    It's exactly what they teach you in any COMSCI class, it is OKAY to look and be inspired, it's actually encouraged, but as soon as you copy and paste, you're basically looking at expulsion.
    Phones: Nokia Lumia Icon, Nokia Lumia 928, HTC Windows Phone 8x, HTC Trophy
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  14. techiez's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by rockstarzzz View Post
    Daniel's stance is what I stand with on this issue. As an editor if he runs a story of an app that the community benefits from - it is just his job. However, he is right in calling reverse engineering an illicit activity as far as proprietary APIs are concerned. Now, someone copying someone else's work which uses hacked APIs may be frowned upon by the community as a whole but asking Daniel to take sides on this? Nah.
    I agree that Daniel cant take any sides here but then the post was unwarranted he should not have posted at all.
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    sueha and Vikram Dinesh like this.
  15. desitunez's Avatar
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    #40  
    I am end user , I don't care if someone copied some code , I am happy to have another app in app store , at least they trying and putting effort .. is that paid app they selling? if not what's the big deal...
  16. LastBattle's Avatar
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       #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by desitunez View Post
    I am end user , I don't care if someone copied some code , I am happy to have another app in app store , at least they trying and putting effort .. is that paid app they selling? if not what's the big deal...
    That's the same thing as robbing from a store and giving it out free. Its certainly a big deal.
    Indie dev

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  17. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by desitunez View Post
    I am end user , I don't care if someone copied some code , I am happy to have another app in app store , at least they trying and putting effort .. is that paid app they selling? if not what's the big deal...
    That is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read! Another word for copying is STEALING, especially when you publish it as your own!
    Phones: Nokia Lumia Icon, Nokia Lumia 928, HTC Windows Phone 8x, HTC Trophy
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    Residing and sueha like this.
  18. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimoranthu View Post
    It seems...ironic that you're taking this stance when you're the first to publicize these developers who engage in somewhat illicit activity. We all remember the mysterious Instagraph posts.
    That's not irony.

    I just see one developer here making allegations with people submitting tips that we should report on it. I'm not a dev and don't analyze code, but I'm dubious when one side makes outrageous claims without the other side chiming in--I'm not up for taking someone's word, especially when they have a vested interest. Yet I see people here picking up the pitchforks because this is the internet, and that's what people do, evidently.

    We always report on controversial apps--torrent apps, clone apps, store hacks, etc. I make no apologies for that. Not sure what that has to do with anything, really or how it's "ironic".

    What's my stance? That I find it funny that devs who've cloned a service by reverse engineering APIs against the TOS of that company get upset when others allegedly "steal" their code? Yeah, I do find that funny, sorry. It's not a moral position--I'm not saying it's wrong or right, nor am I defending it (if it's true).

    I'm just not prepared to run a story on the front page burning one dev because another has made claims. We do that and our site could become a dev tabloid pretty soon.
    Daniel Rubino
    Editor in chief - Windows Phone Central
    Email: daniel@wpcentral.com
    Twitter: @Daniel_Rubino
    Socl: Daniel Rubino
  19. rhodri22's Avatar
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    #44  
    100% agree with you Daniel. If the developer is of the opinion that this is theft, he should contact Microsoft who can make a judgment. It is not the place of a Windows Phone news site to become the war ground for two devs making accusations that are as of yet unfounded.


    This needs to be dealt with by someone who can look impartiality and knowledgably on the evidence and come to a judgment that is fair for both parties, whether that be in favour of the developer above or against, and then take the appropriate action.
  20. karryt's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rubino View Post
    What's my stance? That I find it funny that devs who've cloned a service by reverse engineering APIs against the TOS of that company get upset when others allegedly "steal" their code? Yeah, I do find that funny, sorry. It's not a moral position--I'm not saying it's wrong or right, nor am I defending it (if it's true).
    Daniel, I just recently started reading wpcentral but your comments here have been kind of off-putting to me. I didn't see anyone in the thread suggest that you should run a story on this before all of the facts were known. And even if you did want to run a story you could have done some fact checking yourself first. You say you're not defending any supposed theft, but your comments to me were pretty out of line. The original dev put in a lot of time to develop his app and he definitely has the right to protect his work. I agree with the poster above that it would have been better if you had not commented on this at all.
    sueha, berty6294 and HarisA1 like this.
  21. Jas00555's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by karryt View Post
    Daniel, I just recently started reading wpcentral but your comments here have been kind of off-putting to me. I didn't see anyone in the thread suggest that you should run a story on this before all of the facts were known. And even if you did want to run a story you could have done some fact checking yourself first. You say you're not defending any supposed theft, but your comments to me were pretty out of line. The original dev put in a lot of time to develop his app and he definitely has the right to protect his work. I agree with the poster above that it would have been better if you had not commented on this at all.
    huh??? He clearly states 2 paragraphs above what you quoted that people were submitting tips on their site or within the app. You only quoted that one paragraph, but deleted the rest. So you clearly saw the rest, but what? Forgot about it?
  22. karryt's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jas00555 View Post
    huh??? He clearly states 2 paragraphs above what you quoted that people were submitting tips on their site or within the app. You only quoted that one paragraph, but deleted the rest. So you clearly saw the rest, but what? Forgot about it?
    No of course not, I clearly stated that there was no mention within this thread that he should bring this to anyone's attention, until he said he wouldn't do so himself. He was free to ignore the "tips" that folks were sending in, and not post comments that I, and apparently others, found to be rather demeaning to the application developer. It was just a surprise to see the kind of attitude the editor in chief of the site has towards developers that are actually putting forth the effort to develop for Windows Phone.
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  23. #48  
    This reminds me of a classic dialogue

    Steve Jobs: What is this? This is like doing business with a praying mantis. You get seduced, and then eaten alive afterwards?
    Bill Gates: Get real, would ya? You and I are both like guys who had this rich neighbor - Xerox - who left the door open all the time. And you go sneakin' in to steal a TV set. Only when you get there, you realize that I got there first. I got the loot, Steve! And you're yellin'? "That's not fair. I wanted to try to steal it first." You're too late.


    As a developer , I understand LastBattle's pain. You work hard only to get ripped off. Also Daniel's remark is fine. We violated the TOS to give us an instagram client , so one un fair move gets another un fair move.

    My advise (and I copy from Lazy Wom's comment) - Imitation is the best form of flattery !! So Take it as a pride that they copied your code and Move ahead cheerfully !

    you are doing a good job and My best wishes for your future apps
  24. FourTonMantis's Avatar
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    #49  
    Meanwhile in the recent updates...:

    untitled.jpg

    But apart of that - the sad truth is that if you are afraid of your intellectual work getting copied - you should not become an author.
    I know it's not right and it doesn't feel good (I've been copied a few times), but there's nothing that can be changed at the moment. And yes, it feels a bit like a flattery :)
  25. Jas00555's Avatar
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    #50  
    I'm not sure if these apps actually stole the source code, but for the people saying it's okay to steal someone's app, let me give you a scenario:

    So lets say you're a drug dealer (great way to start this, but follow me here). So you know you're doing something that your country (instagram) doesn't approve of and you know you're breaking the law (ToS) by smuggling (reverse engineering) your products (instagram client) into a market.

    Suddenly, you find out that another drug dealer has been stealing your drugs and giving them away for free even though you spent tons of time smuggling your drugs.

    You tell people that someone has been stealing your drugs and giving them away and your clients say "dude, I'm an end-user, I don't care where the drugs come from, the more deals the merrier, stop freaking out."

    Yeah, that would suck wouldn't it? Stealing someone's work is never okay.
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