1. matt john2's Avatar
    Does it give you a chill knowing that your beloved Windows OS is becoming a joke with all the security holes and backdoors lurking in the wild? Perhaps it's about time to give a try to the free software alternatives(aka linux)?
    05-16-2017 02:34 AM
  2. Drael646464's Avatar
    Does it give you a chill knowing that your beloved Windows OS is becoming a joke with all the security holes and backdoors lurking in the wild? Perhaps it's about time to give a try to the free software alternatives(aka linux)?
    lol. The NSA weaponized SMB server exploit was patched as soon as it was released.

    The people effected are running outdated unsupported OSes like windows xp.

    If anything that makes me happier to be running windows 10 with its automatic updates. I know, if there's a risk not only does MS have my back, but it'll come to my machine with no effort or concern.

    If there was any serious consumer base of Linux distro's, and ransom hackers saw actual profit in hacking Linux desktops, I'm sure you'd get hacked too.

    Makes me wonder- do you get malware over the otherside? Lot of hackers like Linux, so must be you get some ever if it isn't a popular platform.
    05-16-2017 02:54 AM
  3. matt john2's Avatar
    lol. The NSA weaponized SMB server exploit was patched as soon as it was released.

    The people infected are running outdated unsupported OSes like windows xp.
    True, but with the vast amounts of those affected machines is astonishing. Machines that all of us relies on everyday, hospitals, atm machines, business computers, etc etc. It's scary.

    This is a really big deal now that we know the computers that are running our lives can be compromised this easily and someone somewhere (NSA) have the ability to take full control without us even knowing.
    Last edited by matt john2; 05-16-2017 at 04:20 AM.
    05-16-2017 04:09 AM
  4. Drael646464's Avatar
    True, but with the vast amounts of those affected machines is astonishing. Machines that all of us relies on everyday, hospitals, atm machines, business computers, etc etc. It's scary.

    This is a really big deal now that we know the computers that are running our lives can be compromised this easily and someone somewhere (NSA) have the ability to take full control without us even knowing.
    Unfortunately this whole cyberwar thing is a little unsettling. Whether its the android/ios/Samsung tv CIA leaks, or the windows nSA ones, there seems to be increasing dependency in the modern day on computers and governments are battling to see who can create the most devastating electronic hacks.

    With IoT, contactless payment, electronic ID/signatures, location tracking/data mining, cameras....this all only seems to increase in risk.

    It seems like the biggest risk to that society, and to our privacy are the tools being developed by the government, particular the US government.

    One day, it'll all probably come to a head, and people will be wary of such reliance. Something like an infrastructure hack, or a mass electronic theft.
    05-16-2017 04:19 AM
  5. matt john2's Avatar
    Unfortunately this whole cyberwar thing is a little unsettling. Whether its the android/ios/Samsung tv CIA leaks, or the windows nSA ones, there seems to be increasing dependency in the modern day on computers and governments are battling to see who can create the most devastating electronic hacks.

    With IoT, contactless payment, electronic ID/signatures, location tracking/data mining, cameras....this all only seems to increase in risk.

    It seems like the biggest risk to that society, and to our privacy are the tools being developed by the government, particular the US government.

    One day, it'll all probably come to a head, and people will be wary of such reliance. Something like an infrastructure hack, or a mass electronic theft.
    The worse thing is this kinds of attack always happens only to those devices running closed source non 'Free Software' operating systems that all of us relies on. I've never heard or read anything this bad that happened on Linux as a whole.
    05-16-2017 04:35 AM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    The worse thing is this kinds of attack always happens only to those devices running closed source non 'Free Software' operating systems that all of us relies on. I've never heard or read anything this bad that happened on Linux as a whole.
    Well of course, they target the biggest userbase. If everyone in the world used Linux, you bet your nuts the CIA/NSA/Russian govt and other hackers would be spending their time on that.

    Funny they targeted Samsung TVs too. Didn't know they were that popular. Clearly they must be.

    That said, there was a big infrastructure hack in China some years back, where they killed a powerstation. Possibly that was running Linux. Infrastructure attacks might well focus there.
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    05-16-2017 04:48 AM
  7. matt john2's Avatar
    Well of course, they target the biggest userbase. If everyone in the world used Linux, you bet your nuts the CIA/NSA/Russian govt and other hackers would be spending their time on that.

    Funny they targeted Samsung TVs too. Didn't know they were that popular. Clearly they must be.

    That said, there was a big infrastructure hack in China some years back, where they killed a powerstation. Possibly that was running Linux. Infrastructure attacks might well focus there.
    It's not about the amount of users but how the developers developed and configured their softwares. If it is about the user base then all of the major servers and mainframes like Google, Facebook, IBM, Amazon, and etc would have been compromised because they all use Linux.

    If a user only do basic computing then he should be using Linux instead
    05-16-2017 05:23 AM
  8. Drael646464's Avatar
    It's not about the amount of users but how the developers developed and configured their softwares. If it is about the user base then all of the major servers and mainframes like Google, Facebook, IBM, Amazon, and etc would have been compromised because they all use Linux.

    If a user only do basic computing then he should be using Linux instead
    Facebook has been hacked a few times, as I understand it. Amazons been hacked with some massive password and credit card detail leaks. Not sure I'd trust amazons security too much given this.

    Google has their 'Google Vulnerability Reward Program' where they pay anyone that hacks them. And I'm talking decent pay here - find an exploit and get thousands of dollars. Googles been hacked in the past, or at least there are credible claims, but I think they take patching vulnerabilities incredibly seriously.

    Amazon also has its own bug bounty program, even though they have been majorly hacked at least twice.

    So its really not a case of Linux can't be hacked, its more that people who run Linux servers are beholden to constantly plug exploits, much like desktop OS makers have to constantly fix exploits.

    The problem with desktops, is those people don't update their software, fix the holes - or if the exploit is discovered by the hacker before the security people. Its really more like an arms race. There is no OS in the world which is unhackable.

    Most of the hacking is actually done by governments attacking other governments, or corporations or governments spying on citizens or other governments/corporations. Hacking is big money - if your good at it, you'd be a fool to not work for somebody.

    Using a desktop Linux platform, is for security purposes like using a sailfish, windows 10 mobile, or bb10 phone - there's not many people using it, so that's going to make you pretty safe on its own.

    Linux does have a pretty tight permissions system. that is slightly better than windows though. But it also doesn't sandbox applications, which windows 10 uwp apps do maiing it vulnerable to malware exploits, should anyone be motivated to write one.

    Android of course users Linux's permission system, but its still possible to get in through the user, via malware or other related exploits. It's a little more complicated, as one has to essentially exploit one's way through the layers of permission levels to get root access, but its not impossible. as many have proven.

    Would I say Linux is more secure? Yeah it probably is, at a basic level. But who's plugging the exploits when it is vulnerable? If it were mass adopted, someone would need to seriously, commercially manage that end. I wouldn't trust a free open sourced distribution, if engaged at a massive consumer scale to be secure at all - because every exploit that exists would have to be patched by a centralised software distribution agency, and with some rapid speed.

    If Linux had a centralised application store, like windows or osx, running sandboxed applications that have been through some level of basic scrutiny, AND it received centralised security updates, via automatic update - it would undoubtably be the most secure OS there is, very very hard to hack. It already has some strong advantages in terms of security, no doubt. But invulnerable - no, it ain't.

    Plus Linux in a way is a sort of legacy OS. It's going to struggle to keep up in the age of machine learning, and VR/AR, multiple devices hybridization and so on. There is SO many coding hours involved in these sort of projects, and because Linux is open source, it tends to lag behind.

    Something like Linux mint for example, can't run on a smart phone, can't run in mixed reality. Linux has no smarthome hub, no voice assistant, no machine learning apis. It's hard not to imagine Linux being left behind in what essentially is another arms race- the race between google, Samsung, amazon, sony apple etc for the future.

    Certainly if it could become competitive in these future areas - mixed reality, machine learning, voice recognition, hybridization/form conversion, varying input and output methods (voice, stylus, touch, gesture, hologram projection, little screen, no screen), as windows 10 is trying to do. If it could even keep up, it would offer a competitive advantage over the others paid or advertising funded offerings.

    But jesus those unpaid open source devs would have to literally work their behinds off for a great many years. I can't see that even being possible without commercialisation. Even then, there's the software gap. You'd have to market it well enough, or have enough of a competitive offering vs the others, that users would switch.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-16-2017 at 06:14 AM.
    05-16-2017 05:39 AM
  9. matt john2's Avatar
    Facebook has been hacked a few times, as I understand it. Amazons been hacked with some massive password and credit card detail leaks. Not sure I'd trust amazons security too much given this.

    Google has their 'Google Vulnerability Reward Program' where they pay anyone that hacks them. And I'm talking decent pay here - find an exploit and get thousands of dollars. Googles been hacked in the past, or at least there are credible claims, but I think they take patching vulnerabilities incredibly seriously.

    Amazon also has its own bug bounty program, even though they have been majorly hacked at least twice.

    So its really not a case of Linux can't be hacked, its more that people who run Linux servers are beholden to constantly plug exploits, much like desktop OS makers have to constantly fix exploits.

    The problem with desktops, is those people don't update their software, fix the holes - or if the exploit is discovered by the hacker before the security people. Its really more like an arms race. There is no OS in the world which is unhackable.

    Most of the hacking is actually done by governments attacking other governments, or corporations or governments spying on citizens or other governments.

    Using a desktop Linux platform, is for security purposes like using a sailfish, windows 10 mobile, or bb10 phone - there's no one really using it, so that's going to make you pretty safe.

    Linux does have a pretty tight permissions system. that is slightly better than windows though. But it also doesn't sandbox applications, which windows 10 uwp apps do. Android of course users Linux's permission system, but its still possible to get in through the user, via malware or other exploits.

    Would I say Linux is more secure? Yeah it probably is, at a basic level. But who's plugging the exploits when it is vulnerable? If it were mass adopted, someone would need to seriously, commercially manage that end.
    You are correct and that's why Windows is terrible for basic users, unlike Linux Windows is only being maintained by one company and for that matter no one (except to those who were granted) is able to look and inspect whether there are malicious codes in the system and that's why these catastrophic exploits happens. And by nature, a community driven Open Source OS is far more secure because it's been inspected very well by the public and companies that relies on it to make sure that no foreign codes are lurking and that everyone has agreed before releasing it.
    05-16-2017 06:18 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    You are correct and that's why Windows is terrible for basic users, unlike Linux Windows is only being maintained by one company and for that matter no one (except to those who were granted) is able to look and inspect whether there are malicious codes in the system and that's why these catastrophic exploits happens. And by nature, a community driven Open Source OS is far more secure because it's been inspected very well by the public and companies that relies on it to make sure that no foreign codes are lurking and that everyone has agreed before releasing it.
    Your basically plugging democracy right there. I can counter - Donald trump :P Its not only possible for billions of people to be wrong at once, its probable that the on average opinion is usually wrong.

    Seriously though I do believe Linux is a pretty secure system. It's not perfect, it can be hacked.

    I just don't see how it can stay modern as a desktop platform, or acquire software developers or a larger userbase. Already both other desktop platforms sandbox applications, apple and MS are both buying AI companies left right and centre. They have marketing, teams developing innovative new features. Linux has taken long enough just to create a simple to use GUI.

    Anything along that line of future proofing would require a commercialized IP version. And so far, the makers of such products have been pretty small beans outside of server services.

    Have you heard any talks of an open sourced voice assistant, or smart home hub on friendly simple Linux distro? At/VR? Machine learning for content curation, content creation, or recognition?

    Is there an open sourced google search? Can hardware be open sourced, so that Linux can develop new hardware models?

    Do you believe open source can actually meet the future?

    Commerce, as bloody as it can be, and less than ideal, is the way we have of driving people, motivating them, and having them sacrifice for the next thing. It's probably going to get us all nearly killed one day, but a unpaid model just does not seem likely to compete to me. The devs and contributors would have to be driven by something more powerful that the ability to put food on the table, like religion or similar.
    05-16-2017 06:33 AM
  11. matt john2's Avatar

    Would I say Linux is more secure? Yeah it probably is, at a basic level. But who's plugging the exploits when it is vulnerable? If it were mass adopted, someone would need to seriously, commercially manage that end. I wouldn't trust a free open sourced distribution, if engaged at a massive consumer scale to be secure at all - because every exploit that exists would have to be patched by a centralised software distribution agency, and with some rapid speed.

    If Linux had a centralised application store, like windows or osx, running sandboxed applications that have been through some level of basic scrutiny, AND it received centralised security updates, via automatic update - it would undoubtably be the most secure OS there is, very very hard to hack. It already has some strong advantages in terms of security, no doubt. But invulnerable - no, it ain't.

    Plus Linux in a way is a sort of legacy OS. It's going to struggle to keep up in the age of machine learning, and VR/AR, multiple devices hybridization and so on. There is SO many coding hours involved in these sort of projects, and because Linux is open source, it tends to lag behind.

    Something like Linux mint for example, can't run on a smart phone, can't run in mixed reality. Linux has no smarthome hub, no voice assistant, no machine learning apis. It's hard not to imagine Linux being left behind in what essentially is another arms race- the race between google, Samsung, amazon, sony apple etc for the future.

    Certainly if it could become competitive in these future areas - mixed reality, machine learning, voice recognition, hybridization/form conversion, varying input and output methods (voice, stylus, touch, gesture, hologram projection, little screen, no screen), as windows 10 is trying to do. If it could even keep up, it would offer a competitive advantage over the others paid or advertising funded offerings.

    But jesus those unpaid open source devs would have to literally work their behinds off for a great many years. I can't see that even being possible without commercialisation. Even then, there's the software gap. You'd have to market it well enough, or have enough of a competitive offering vs the others, that users would switch.
    I'm guessing you've never used linux before that's okay tho.
    05-16-2017 06:37 AM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'm guessing you've never used linux before that's okay tho.
    A little bit. Not recently. I wouldn't dream of using it for my main OS, it has none of the software that I use regularly. Plus, I am pretty clumsy with the commandline, compared to dos/powershell. I like to understand by system, and I can't be arsed learning Linux shell commands.

    Are you implying that there's a Linux distro with machine learning in built and VR baked into the system? That there's a Linux smart home centre, that's compatible with smart home things? Sandboxing? Auto-updates? Or that any of those things are somewhere being actively developed?

    What did you think I missed?
    Chintan Gohel and neo158 like this.
    05-16-2017 06:44 AM
  13. matt john2's Avatar
    Your basically plugging democracy right there. I can counter - Donald trump :P Its not only possible for billions of people to be wrong at once, its probable that the on average opinion is usually wrong.

    Seriously though I do believe Linux is a pretty secure system. It's not perfect, it can be hacked.

    I just don't see how it can stay modern as a desktop platform, or acquire software developers or a larger userbase. Already both other desktop platforms sandbox applications, apple and MS are both buying AI companies left right and centre. They have marketing, teams developing innovative new features. Linux has taken long enough just to create a simple to use GUI.

    Anything along that line of future proofing would require a commercialized IP version. And so far, the makers of such products have been pretty small beans outside of server services.

    Have you heard any talks of an open sourced voice assistant, or smart home hub on friendly simple Linux distro? At/VR? Machine learning for content curation, content creation, or recognition?

    Is there an open sourced google search? Can hardware be open sourced, so that Linux can develop new hardware models?

    Do you believe open source can actually meet the future?

    Commerce, as bloody as it can be, and less than ideal, is the way we have of driving people, motivating them, and having them sacrifice for the next thing. It's probably going to get us all nearly killed one day, but a unpaid model just does not seem likely to compete to me. The devs and contributors would have to be driven by something more powerful that the ability to put food on the table, like religion or similar.
    My simple answer to this is that the community behind Linux and Linux distros don't want anything that violates the user's privacy and it's up to those who wants to use Linux as a tool to do whatever they want whether for good or bad things, it's free after all.
    05-16-2017 06:47 AM
  14. Drael646464's Avatar
    My simple answer to this is that the community behind Linux and Linux distros don't want anything that violates the user's privacy and it's up to those who wants to use Linux as a tool to do whatever they want whether for good or bad things, it's free after all.
    That pretty much rules out machine learning then. Machine learning requires data to train.

    It'll certainly be interesting to see what Linux developers do, after windows 10 starts to reach its lofty goals, and later google and apples release their latest technologies (I know apple is heavily investing in both AR, and machine learning).

    Do you think when all the other OSes are doing this stuff, Linux will want to follow? Or do you think Linux distrubitors are generally opposed to these sorts of technologies?

    I think in my next life, I'll learn Linux commandline. I'd like to come back as a hacker.
    05-16-2017 06:55 AM
  15. matt john2's Avatar
    A little bit. Not recently. I wouldn't dream of using it for my main OS, it has none of the software that I use regularly. Plus, I am pretty clumsy with the commandline, compared to dos/powershell. I like to understand by system, and I can't be arsed learning Linux shell commands.

    Are you implying that there's a Linux distro with machine learning in built and VR baked into the system? That there's a Linux smart home centre, that's compatible with smart home things? Sandboxing? Auto-updates? Or that any of those things are somewhere being actively developed?

    What did you think I missed?
    Auto updates? Yep there are "app stores" auto updating everything. And commands if so you choose

    Apps? Like I said there's an app store

    Actively being developed? Depends on what you mean

    Sandboxing? Not sure, I dont have the knowledge for that yet and since I use non proprietary(Open Source) apps then it's already safe and secure

    Machine Learning? : Does it invade your privacy? Yep everything so no machine learning for the mainstream Linux distros or at all.
    05-16-2017 07:05 AM
  16. etphoto's Avatar
    I played with Linux for a few years a while back. It was fun but every time I tried doing something different I had to spend a few hours learning. It got to a point it was too big a hassle for the casual user so I went back to Windows for the UI and ease of use. Its like everything else. Its nice to have open windows to air out the house and get a slight breeze but you have to remember to close the windows when you leave. If not, you're taking chances.

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    05-16-2017 07:08 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    Auto updates? Yep there are "app stores" auto updating everything. And commands if so you choose

    Apps? Like I said there's an app store

    Actively being developed? Depends on what you mean

    Sandboxing? Not sure, I dont have the knowledge for that yet and since I use non proprietary(Open Source) apps then it's already safe and secure

    Machine Learning? : Does it invade your privacy? Yep everything so no machine learning for the mainstream Linux distros or at all.
    What Linux do you run out of curiosity?

    I might play with some virtualized machines at some point, just for fun.
    05-16-2017 07:08 AM
  18. matt john2's Avatar
    What Linux do you run out of curiosity?

    I might play with some virtualized machines at some point, just for fun.
    I use Manjaro KDE, beautiful desktop and the most customisable with almost everything that I need, I blame Adobe
    05-16-2017 07:15 AM
  19. matt john2's Avatar
    I played with Linux for a few years a while back. It was fun but every time I tried doing something different I had to spend a few hours learning. It got to a point it was too big a hassle for the casual user so I went back to Windows for the UI and ease of use. Its like everything else. Its nice to have open windows to air out the house and get a slight breeze but you have to remember to close the windows when you leave. If not, you're taking chances.

    Twitter: @PhotographyET
    My first encounter was 10 years ago at my school and it was daunting. Then about a year or two ago from now I started playing with ElementaryOS but never understood a thing about Linux. It was only until recently, about a couple of months ago, that I started using it again and there was already some big changes. It's way simpler than ever before. The GUI of the mainstream distros are now optimised for beginners.

    My main tip is to give yourself a chance to learn and be open minded for new things as they mostly are different in Linux. But it'll soon be very rewarding after taking your first baby walk and learn how to talk.
    05-16-2017 07:57 AM
  20. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Does it give you a chill knowing that your beloved Windows OS is becoming a joke with all the security holes and backdoors lurking in the wild? Perhaps it's about time to give a try to the free software alternatives(aka linux)?
    Did for over 16 years. Windows 10 does a better job to be honest. Especially if you're into gaming. Doesn't matter what happens to windows and how many exploits will come and go, it will always own the market. Just like android continues to.
    editguy, Guytronic and neo158 like this.
    05-16-2017 12:30 PM
  21. editguy's Avatar
    Linux isn't a solution for many people. I'm a professional video editor and the NLE's that I use are not available on Linux. Because of that I have no compelling reason to invest time in it (even though I have it on a separate boot drive).
    05-16-2017 01:01 PM
  22. Travis Flenker's Avatar
    If you think a properly patched and updated W10 machine is less secure than some random Linux flavor, you're kidding yourself.
    TgeekB, Drael646464 and neo158 like this.
    05-16-2017 01:50 PM
  23. TgeekB's Avatar
    Does it give you a chill knowing that your beloved Windows OS is becoming a joke with all the security holes and backdoors lurking in the wild? Perhaps it's about time to give a try to the free software alternatives(aka linux)?
    No, because I use Windows 10 with latest updates.

    Oh, and this isn't linuxcentral. You must have made a wrong turn in Albuquerque (said in Bugs Bunny voice). 😉

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    neo158 likes this.
    05-16-2017 05:19 PM
  24. T Moore's Avatar
    Does it give you a chill knowing that your beloved Windows OS is becoming a joke with all the security holes and backdoors lurking in the wild? Perhaps it's about time to give a try to the free software alternatives(aka linux)?
    No chills here. An updated Windows PC has not been effected.
    What joke, what security holes and what backdoors are your referring to.
    TgeekB, Rainar Angelo and neo158 like this.
    05-16-2017 07:02 PM
  25. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Actually, I am. And I will continue to. Why?
    Because nothing I own was even remotely effected. I'm using Windows 10, a supported and consistently updated operating system. Is it impregnable? Absolutely not. But any time a security exploit threatens me or my personal information, there is a patch the next day to fix it. That and a combination of my own internet safety intelligence protects me from these attacks.

    In fact, I'll go a step beyond saying I'm still using Windows 10. I am going to applaud Microsoft for trying to wake the world up. For too long governments and large corporations have been stuck to the past, using technology but refusing to acknowledge their importance in protecting their citizens or their consumers. So many organizations refuse to update their systems properly (like still using Windows XP years after it has become outdated and unsupported) even when Microsoft warns them years in advance and offers them the chance to continue support (as long as they, you know, pay Microsoft. Because it's not Microsoft's job to keep everyone safe forever, and for free). The UK government tried to blame Microsoft for not update Windows XP, which is 16 YEARS OLD. Windows XP has been around longer then my little sister, who is a freshman in high school. And yet, they were actually given an offer to keep XP safe and secure that the UK government REFUSED.

    For too long governments and organizations have been refusing to fund a proper IT infrastructure that could help them monitor and protect the millions of people who's personal information are entrusted to them.

    For too long these same organizations have been stockpiling the very same exploits that are stolen from the very same organizations and turned against us, instead of turning these exploits into the companies that can protect us. The NSA KNEW about this exploit, but did they tell Microsoft? No, they didn't. Instead, the exploit was stolen and was used against thousands of people, including the UK's NHS.

    The world needs to wake up. Technology like Windows 10, Google's Android and ChromeOS, and Apple's many (many) operating systems are all an integral part of society now, and security on the web and on the devices in our home needs to be taken just as seriously as security out there on the battlefield. Our own government has (on multiple occasions), been the reason our privacy has been compromised. Have we forgotten what happened with the CIA? I don't think people realize just how hard companies like Google and Microsoft have to work to keep us safe, especially when the very governments that lord over them and control them are keeping these exploits hidden from them.

    If anything, these attacks should set a precedent. I applaud Microsoft for standing up and calling these organizations out, and then being the bigger person by turning around and releasing a patch for outdated, unsupported, and archaic operating systems at a LOSS. Yes, we call it "free," but you know it costs Microsoft thousands, if not millions, to do this.

    And, no, this doesn't end at the governments and how they treat us as citizens, and how they treat internet security like it's a game. This also extends to the companies I've been referring to, like Google and Microsoft. Companies who use exploits to attempt to destroy the PR of their rival. Like when Google informs Microsoft (publically) of a security issue then gives them three whole days to find it, patch it, and release that patch before releasing the exploit publically.

    Ah, you know what? I think I'm done ranting, haha.
    05-16-2017 09:29 PM
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