Welcome to the Windows Central Forums Create Your Account or Ask a Question Answers in 5 minutes - no registration required!
Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 228
Like Tree61Likes
  1. imem's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    87 Posts
    #76  
    Well if I my tell you what I think!
    They should sit down and talk this true.
    If they find a solution for all to coexist I think there would be a better for the costumer
    Apple and Microsoft are working together and that's not bad for any one is it?!
    So if Google is targeting this as a strategy I think many more going to us Bing and that will give less add money for them. Well you se where I'm going with this.
    So I like the idea of free software but as I live in the real world it's not always the best solution , and not for every one.
    So Google think one more time don't think that your in a place where no one can touch you.

    P's I can change my mail to another client it's no problem. And this move will give me a reason to do that.

    Skickat frn min HTC Sensation XL with Beats Audio X315e via Tapatalk 2
  2. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    Thanks for clarifying what you meant. When I read or hear "open", I think of FOSS, which most certainly does not indicate any Microsoft products.
    IMO, FOSS isn't open -- it's propellerhead stuff that has no relevance to the consumer.

    Openness, for 99.9% of users, means that a solution will work across platforms, without any restrictions or efforts to "firewall it out."

    Google's a great example of a company that uses FOSS "standards" that it modifies and frequently changes in order to create a closed, proprietary experience.
  3. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    Chrome has an incognito mode. Does IE?
    It's called "InPrivate." And read the license agreement for Chrome -- it still sends data about your browsing history to Google, even in "Incognito mode."
  4. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    It's called "InPrivate." And read the license agreement for Chrome -- it still sends data about your browsing history to Google, even in "Incognito mode."
    I used to use incognito mode to have 2 Gmail accounts open at the same time. Then when they made additional accounts a feature I stopped caring.

    I guess if that's your porn more, you'd be more concerned about local caching of that data than anything Google might be keeping on you.
  5. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Openness, for 99.9% of users, means that a solution will work across platforms, without any restrictions or efforts to "firewall it out
    When I think of something that works across platforms, I think of having the exact same data on different devices running different OS version without issues.

    That's not what EAS does. If you've customized your Google Contacts phone, email or mailing address descriptions EAS doesn't sync any of that data. If you add more than 3 or 4 email addresses to a contact, EAS doesn't sync that as email addresses it syncs that as notes. If you have more than 2 mailing addresses for a contact, they're all ignored.

    EAS doesn't work for everyone. Beat the drum about how secure or battery efficient or ubiquitous it is, but also realize that there are serious limitations in what it will do.
  6. Laura Knotek's Avatar

    Posts
    16,922 Posts
    Global Posts
    32,311 Global Posts
    PIN
    Email
    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    IMO, FOSS isn't open -- it's propellerhead stuff that has no relevance to the consumer.

    Openness, for 99.9% of users, means that a solution will work across platforms, without any restrictions or efforts to "firewall it out."

    Google's a great example of a company that uses FOSS "standards" that it modifies and frequently changes in order to create a closed, proprietary experience.
    LibreOffice is an example of a FOSS product that is available to consumers whether they use Windows, OS X or Linux.
  7. AngryNil's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,383 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,387 Global Posts
    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    If you've customized your Google Contacts phone, email or mailing address descriptions EAS doesn't sync any of that data. If you add more than 3 or 4 email addresses to a contact, EAS doesn't sync that as email addresses it syncs that as notes. If you have more than 2 mailing addresses for a contact, they're all ignored.
    Disingenuous argument, EAS does not fail as a cross platform solution because Google's implementation of contacts is different. It might not work for you, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid cross platform implementation that should be supported. (Would you rather have POP?)

    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    LibreOffice is an example of a FOSS product that is available to consumers whether they use Windows, OS X or Linux.
    If it was not open source yet still available on those three platforms, would anyone care? Open source is, for the most part, absolutely meaningless to the end user. Yes, it can mean everyone can contribute. Doesn't mean it's always like that (Google drives Android, no one else does) and doesn't mean it's an advantage (if Libre was developed by many but the source code wasn't released, who cares?).
  8. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    Disingenuous argument, EAS does not fail as a cross platform solution because Google's implementation of contacts is different.
    It's hardly disingenuous. Any Google Contacts user that has used the options available to customize their contact descriptions isn't going to be happy with EAS.

    If they added too many email or mailing addresses, that's a problem too. I tried to add my Google Contacts to my Lumia and EAS failed to do the job.

    This entire discussion is about how wonderfully open and restriction free EAS is. About how it works across platforms and how evil Google is for dropping it, even though there are serious compatibility issues between the two.

    Try to marginalize the point all that you like, but I still have a Lumia with only about 30 of my 400+ contacts on it because
    EAS has serious limitations.
  9. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #84  
    If you want Google's proprietary customization features and don't mind the lock-in that such a proprietary approach entails, an Android phone is your best bet.

    (And yes, the Google "customization" of standard contact fields and "open standards" are proprietary.)
  10. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    If you want Google's proprietary customization features and don't mind the lock-in that such a proprietary approach entails, an Android phone is your best bet.

    (And yes, the Google "customization" of standard contact fields and "open standards" are proprietary.)
    Thunderbird (using whatever plugin I have installed) works just fine. An iOS device (not setup as an Exchange account) works just fine. My Lumia does not.

    If you want to get twisted in semantics, fine. Let's just go ahead and Google's customizations proprietary. Why do other devices and applications work fine but EAS doesn't? Because MS has a financial interest in not supporting CardDAV.

    The fact that I can't properly import my contacts and calendar to Outlook.com means that I'll never be able to switch to WP8. It will be my secondary phone until my contract is up, then I'll try something else.
  11. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    I guess if that's your porn more, you'd be more concerned about local caching of that data than anything Google might be keeping on you.
    I don't really buy the effort to try and classify everyone who is concerned about privacy (and violation thereof) as a terrorist porno-consuming fiend.

    something that works across platforms
    Which Gmail no longer does...

    having the exact same data on different devices running different OS version without issues
    Which Google Services do not do...

    If you've customized your Google Contacts phone, email or mailing address descriptions EAS doesn't sync any of that data.
    For the same reason why Google Contacts doesn't work well with other devices and OSes -- Google's proprietary approach.

    If they used a standard like EAS for contacts, it wouldn't be a problem. It works fine for every other competitor in e-mail. Google's proprietary implementation is the issue.

    EAS doesn't work for everyone.
    That's fine. Nobody's saying that EAS works well for Google's proprietary and closed products. Just don't finger the end user, who wants an open experience, or the open EAS standard as the culprit.

    The only way you'll get usable synchronization with Google's proprietary and closed solution here is to run Google's proprietary app (on iOS) or Google's own OS with its support for Google's proprietary and closed contact app (Android).

    If you value all the proprietary extensions to that degree, you should be okay with the lock-in. But please don't infer that Google's proprietary and closed service is somehow open.
  12. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    I don't really buy the effort to try and classify everyone who is concerned about privacy (and violation thereof) as a terrorist porno-consuming fiend.
    I didn't try to classify anyone as a terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    Which Gmail no longer does...
    Which Outlook.com never has done. Ever tried Outlook on Mac?

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    Google Services do not do...
    Neither do Microsoft's

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    For the same reason why Google Contacts doesn't work well with other devices and OSes -- Google's proprietary approach.
    I didn't set my Gmail account up as an Exchange account when I had my iPad. I can't say that absolutely everything was fine, but I noticed very few issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    That's fine. Nobody's saying that EAS works well for Google's proprietary and closed products. Just don't finger the end user, who wants an open experience, or the open EAS standard as the
    I'd like to have my contacts and calendar, as well as push email from Outlook.com in Outlook on my Mac. Who do I blame for the fact that it isn't possible? Windows users get those features but Mac users don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    The only way you'll get usable synchronization with Google's proprietary and closed solution here is to run Google's proprietary app (on iOS) or Google's own OS with its support for Google's proprietary and closed contact app (Android).
    that's an inaccurate statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976
    If you value all the proprietary extensions to that degree, you should be okay with the lock-in. But please don't infer that Google's proprietary and closed service is somehow open.
    I do value some of the custom capabilities in Google Contacts as they've made my life much easier and my contact list much smaller. The notion that I totally reject (and apparently so does Google) is that Contacts should be dumbed down to provide better compatibility with EAS.
  13. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #88  
    Sure, I use Outlook.com on my MacBook Pro every day. Works great.

    And I'm not attacking your choice to embrace Google proprietary services. By all means, if Google's approach works best for you, grab that Android and par-tay.
  14. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
       #89  
    Make sure to check in and tell us how you're enjoying not having push services on your iPhone (without using Google's proprietary app), and if 45% less battery life (or alternatively, sync-every-hour) is worth having support for oddball custom contact fields. ;)
  15. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanR47 View Post
    If all webpages works with every other browser in the world except for Microsoft(IE mobile & desktop ); they should go back to their drawing board and rethink their strategy.

    Now, if Microsoft can do that, they are competing and deserves to be in First Place in this EcoSystem War. If they are not bothered and is happy being in 3rd/4th place with a system full of compromise, then I take my words back and will stop whining.
    Sorry to say, but your post proves you understand nothing of what you are talking about. If Microsoft does what you say they should, they in fact cease to compete on the mobile web. That would allow Google (and to a lesser extent Apple) to control everything related to internet standards. These issues have been explained elsewhere, so I won't repeat them here. There are more then enough threads on the subject. Inform yourself.

    I'm not going to assume that you and others might actually prefer a single company dominate the mobile web, although that isn't unheard of. It certainly would rid us of the incompatibilities we currently experience. Unfortunately, that implies asking for a strict dictatorship to replace a somewhat more messy democracy. IMHO, those who would sacrifice freedom for compatibility deserve neither.
    Last edited by a5cent; 12-26-2012 at 10:01 AM.
  16. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    It's hardly disingenuous. Any Google Contacts user that has used the options available to customize their contact descriptions isn't going to be happy with EAS.

    If they added too many email or mailing addresses, that's a problem too. I tried to add my Google Contacts to my Lumia and EAS failed to do the job.

    This entire discussion is about how wonderfully open and restriction free EAS is. About how it works across platforms and how evil Google is for dropping it, even though there are serious compatibility issues between the two.

    Try to marginalize the point all that you like, but I still have a Lumia with only about 30 of my 400+ contacts on it because
    EAS has serious limitations.
    Arrowrand, nobody is claiming you had a great synching experience with EAS. Yet your view on the issue is still fundamentally flawed. That basic misunderstanding of yours still exists, and for some reason all of us are failing at explaining it to you. I'll try one more time with an analogy:

    Last weekend I went mountain goose hunting. I took my new Ferrari up into the snowy alps and golly me, the damn thing just failed to do the job. With the 4x4 jeep I previously owned things worked much better. This entire discussion is about how restriction free my Ferrari is, even though there are serous compatibility issues between the two. Try to marginalize the point all you like, but I caught 400 geese last month using my jeep. Using my Ferrari I returned with but 30.

    Yes, an utterly ridiculous argument. It could come from nowhere but an insane asylum, but it is exactly what your argument sounds like.

    Ferraris and Jeeps aren't designed to do the same thing. Neither are EAS and CardDAV.

    Nobody here is going to argue that using a Ferrari to go mountain goose hunting will result in a great experience, but blaming the Ferrari for that poor experience is insane. Simple as that.

    If you want to blame somebody, blame Microsoft and Google for not having gotten together to develop a compatible contacts managements system. Although there's no chance of that ever happening, it at least makes more sense than blaming EAS.

    I'm fully aware that this ridiculous analogy can be twisted to reflect an entirely different point of view. That isn't the point. The analogy serves only to point out the reason why it doesn't make sense to blame EAS for your poor syncing experience.
    Last edited by a5cent; 12-26-2012 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Poorly written. Reworked
  17. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Sure, I use Outlook.com on my MacBook Pro every day. Works great.
    Oh, how convenient, you've totally ignored the WITH OUTLOOK part. That's fine. Yes, Outlook.com works just fine in Chrome on my MacBook.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    And I'm not attacking your choice to embrace Google proprietary services. By all means, if Google's approach works best for you, grab that Android and par-tay.
    You just don't get it. You said earlier that I "shouldn't point the finger at the end user", yet that's exactly what you're doing.

    I've met Microsoft half way, I bought a Lumia. You're trying to tell me that it's perfectly acceptable for MS to tell me to go screw because I dare choose to use evil Google's services.

    MS got me on this first phone, but they can't afford for me throw in the towel. They need me to buy a Surface. They need for me to ditch my Mac and go Win 8. They need market share, and telling me that I'll have to work out my own contacts and calendar issues is a mistake for them.

    It would be nice for me, the end user that's already given MS a shot by buying their phone if they would meet me half way and work out their own issues with sync.
  18. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Make sure to check in and tell us how you're enjoying not having push services on your iPhone (without using Google's proprietary app), and if 45% less battery life (or alternatively, sync-every-hour) is worth having support for oddball custom contact fields. ;)
    My next iPhone will be my first iPhone, but if I ever choose to buy one I'll be sure to let you know how it goes for me.

    If you're talking about my iPad, I used the Google Gmail app with it for several months before I sold it. I had push. I had my contacts and I had my calendar. I had no issues with battery life at all.

    When my Gmail account was set up in the Mail app (not as EAS) I had no issues with battery life at all, so your facts and figures came straight from your backside.
  19. Big Supes's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,698 Posts
    #94  
    We all know Microsoft would be screwed sideways in court if they kicked Skype users out of their accounts, made them open an Outlook account in order to keep using it, then tampered with Skype's architecture so it didn't work well on other platforms...
    Google - "Don't be evil. . . much!"
    HeyCori likes this.
  20. arrowrand's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    138 Posts
    Global Posts
    151 Global Posts
    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    We all know Microsoft would be screwed sideways in court if they kicked Skype users out of their accounts, made them open an Outlook account in order to keep using it, then tampered with Skype's architecture so it didn't work well on other platforms...
    Since Google Contacts was never available outside of a Google account, I can only assume that you're stirring YouTube into the pot as well.

    That change happened 2 years or more after Google bought YouTube. Given that MS has owned Skype for just a little over a year it would likely be wise to wait and see what they do with it. At $8.5 billion, MS will do what they have to do to try to make that investment pay off.

    Aside from that, you're insinuating that Microsoft's history is as pure as the driven snow. We both know that is as far from the truth as you can get.
  21. crystal_planet's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    996 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,044 Global Posts
    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post


    Aside from that, you're insinuating that Microsoft's history is as pure as the driven snow. We both know that is as far from the truth as you can get.
    Name me one of the current players that is.
    My next phone...
  22. stmav's Avatar
    Retired Moderator

    Posts
    3,685 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,767 Global Posts
    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrowrand View Post
    Oh, how convenient, you've totally ignored the WITH OUTLOOK part. That's fine. Yes, Outlook.com works just fine in Chrome on my MacBook.

    You just don't get it. You said earlier that I "shouldn't point the finger at the end user", yet that's exactly what you're doing.

    I've met Microsoft half way, I bought a Lumia. You're trying to tell me that it's perfectly acceptable for MS to tell me to go screw because I dare choose to use evil Google's services.

    MS got me on this first phone, but they can't afford for me throw in the towel. They need me to buy a Surface. They need for me to ditch my Mac and go Win 8. They need market share, and telling me that I'll have to work out my own contacts and calendar issues is a mistake for them.

    It would be nice for me, the end user that's already given MS a shot by buying their phone if they would meet me half way and work out their own issues with sync.
    Actually, it's google telling you to go screw because you want to use their services on a MS phone. They are the ones refusing to make apps and stopping EAS, not the other way around. If it means that much and you are this unhappy, android is obviously better and less stressful and less argumentative for you.
  23. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    <snipped>
    Hey socialcarpet

    Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

    Although we pretty much disagree on every single point you made in that last post, I like your thinking-mans approach

    Anyway, I will gladly attempt a rebuttal of every issue you mentioned in your previous post, but before I do, it is important to ensure we have a mutual understanding of a few things (big topic):

    1)
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    I'm not asking Microsoft to give up on IE, I'm asking them to GTFO of the way so that we can use alternative WebKit browsers on WP if we want.
    If I understand you correctly, you also oppose putting a single company in control over internet standards. You just don't understand why that should be a consequence of allowing other browsers on WP. Is that correct?

    I suspect this issue is central to our disagreement, which is why I would also ask you to imagine, just for a moment, that allowing other browsers on WP would in fact give dictatorial power to Google (and to a lesser extent Apple) over the internet standards used on the web. Imagine that this actually would kill IE, FireFox and Opera on mobile devices. Assuming that were all true, would you still want other browsers on WP?

    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    No. WebKit is an open, free standard that doesn't belong to Google. CardDAV is an open, free standard. Microsoft's EAS and their Trident browser are NOT.
    No. WebKit is not a standard. EAS is not a standard. Trident is not a standard. None of the things you call a standard actually are! WebKit and Trident are implementations of standards. That is a huge difference. In practice, people will often refer to CardDAV and EAS as standards. Although that isn't technically correct, it isn't too far off either. They are actually protocols. Often times protocols are also standardized, such as CardDAV and EAS.

    [BOX=Examples]The HTML5 standard is developed and maintained by the W3C. WebKit and Trident both implement that standard, although they aren't equally faithful to it.

    The EAS protocol is developed and maintained by Microsoft, the specifications of which are publicly available. One of many products which use the EAS protocol is Microsoft's Exchange Server, but Apple, Google, RIM, Nokia and many others also have licenses to use the standard.[/BOX]

    I agree that WebKit is a de facto standard on the mobile web (and only on the mobile web). Note however, that a de facto standard isn't a standard at all. A de facto standard is something that is treated as though it were a standard but isn't, often due to being overly dominant in one specific area, just as WebKit is on the mobile web.

    None of this is really debatable, so I'm sure you will agree. Correct?

    3)
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    As far as WebKit goes, it is what EVERYONE else uses except Microsoft.
    Not really. Of the five big browsers (Firefox, IE, Chrome, Safari and Opera), the majority is not based on WebKit.

    If you were referring to users instead of browser developers, then you would almost be correct, but only almost, as owning 90+% of the worlds mobile browser market share isn't 100% and thus still not everyone.

    Agree?
  24. StevesBalls's Avatar
    Banned

    Posts
    167 Posts
    Global Posts
    183 Global Posts
    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by stmav View Post
    Actually, it's google telling you to go screw because you want to use their services on a MS phone. They are the ones refusing to make apps and stopping EAS, not the other way around. If it means that much and you are this unhappy, android is obviously better and less stressful and less argumentative for you.
    I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but you do realize that Google has to pay licensing fees for EAS to Microsoft, right? Their competitor? It makes absolutely sense that they will not want to support a protocol of a competitor that they also have to pay for. It's a very simple business decision, I don't understand what the big fuss is about...
  25. psychotron's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    499 Posts
    Global Posts
    557 Global Posts
    PIN
    No
    #100  
    I really don't think the word you're looking for here is "proprietary". I believe the term "predatory" would be more appropriate for how you're trying to describe Goggle's practices. Using the term "proprietary" in any discussion involving Microsoft accusing another company of exhibiting a certain behavior would be somewhat laughable and most assuredly hypocritical as they've had the proprietary software market cornered for decades now. IBM may have started the proprietary software game, but MS perfected it based on Bill Gates' manic desire to see it locked it down starting as early as 1976.
Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-28-2012, 11:26 PM
  2. Microsoft finally sues Google directly for patent infringement
    By 12Danny123 in forum The "Off Topic" Lounge
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  3. Replies: 54
    Last Post: 10-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  4. I think Google just cleared the way for Windows Surface with Nexus 7
    By ninjaap in forum General Tablet Discussion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-29-2012, 11:11 AM
  5. Microsoft says they're in it for the (very) long haul
    By HeyCori in forum Windows Phone 7
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 03-03-2012, 08:23 AM

Posting Permissions