1. BenGutt's Avatar
    Hi All,

    For quite some time now I've watched as every opportunity to increase the market share slipped by Microsoft with them nearly managing to take advantage of it. The build it and they will come attitude of the marketing in my mind has been the cause of this failure. Bitter? Me? A little.

    We are well on the downward spiral from dizzy days of 11% market share. Microsoft themselves seem to be releasing more complete apps to competing platforms, which they are entitled to do. No point feeding the few when the money is where the masses are.

    I'm currently sitting here waiting on my first non windows phone since the day the Lumia 920 was released in the UK. The Galaxy S8 (it'll look like the Microsoft Edition when I'm done with it). My Lumia 950xl is sitting ready to be boxed and sent for recycling.

    This brings me to my question, "What, if anything, would bring you back to a phone running on the Windows platform?"
    04-21-2017 08:04 AM
  2. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Fluid functionality between user, apps, and OS. Over the past year, I've bounced back and forth between Android and W10M. If you allow Google/Android to do it's thing, it becomes evident rather quickly that the functionality of Android is far superior to that of W10M. But, all of this is based on my own user experience and needs. I'm sure others might disagree. Also, apps. MS desperately needs to solve their lack of apps problems.
    libra89, Guytronic, Elky64 and 8 others like this.
    04-21-2017 08:09 AM
  3. greedo_greedy's Avatar
    They don't have to bring me back because I'm still in it.

    For the other fans however, I think a simple announcement of new nice mid-range hardware (does not have to be the Surface Phone) should be enough to entice the die hard fans back. This little move will inform the fans that MS is still serious about the market.

    Heck, if MS invests the $1.1m Greg Murphy needs for the Cerulean Mobile, that will get fans interested.
    TgeekB, Elky64, aximtreo and 4 others like this.
    04-21-2017 11:46 AM
  4. tgp's Avatar
    Heck, if MS invests the $1.1m Greg Murphy needs for the Cerulean Mobile, that will get fans interested.
    Yeah, 98 interested fans so far...
    libra89 and mrdoubleb like this.
    04-21-2017 11:59 AM
  5. Rupert Holmes's Avatar
    Better keep that 950XL. Been there, and I am staying with WM as long as possible.
    kpo6969, Vincent Ryan and HaydenDE like this.
    04-21-2017 12:08 PM
  6. greedo_greedy's Avatar
    Remember the days when the Xbox One was under Don Mattrick? It was just bad news after bad news.
    When he was replaced by Phil Spencer, he miraculously was able to turn the Xbox One around.

    Man, whoever is behind W10M is even worse than Don Mattrick.
    04-21-2017 12:15 PM
  7. Guytronic's Avatar
    I'd return for a Sony beast phone running a stable version of Windows Mobile 10.
    04-21-2017 12:15 PM
  8. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yeah, 98 interested fans so far...
    That's because they lost their main investor. We'll never know how it would have sold if that didn't happen.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    editguy likes this.
    04-21-2017 03:13 PM
  9. tgp's Avatar
    That's because they lost their main investor. We'll never know how it would have sold if that didn't happen.
    We might find out. I've heard that Mr. Murphy won't necessarily call it quits if the crowdfunding campaign doesn't work out. I suspect there's more to the story about an investor pulling out. Crowdfunding is sometimes used to measure consumer interest. I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason for this one.
    Ariel Takom and aximtreo like this.
    04-21-2017 03:18 PM
  10. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    My only thought about thinking that way is the fact that a company like Microsoft couldn't even get their phones sold at a profitable rate, and they have billions of dollars to play with. WB was having to ask for the money to get their phone out. I guess we will never know, though. It's just a bad situation for W10M fans.
    Guytronic likes this.
    04-21-2017 03:18 PM
  11. TgeekB's Avatar
    We might find out. I've heard that Mr. Murphy won't necessarily call it quits if the crowdfunding campaign doesn't work out. I suspect there's more to the story about an investor pulling out. Crowdfunding is sometimes used to measure consumer interest. I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason for this one.
    I heard that too but I don't know. Without funding how can they move forward?

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-21-2017 05:24 PM
  12. Elky64's Avatar
    Still have three WPs in my possession just to toy with. As to the question "What, if anything, would bring you back to a phone running on the Windows platform?", at this point and time I'd say "it's too late", for me that is.

    I'm pretty much done due to MSFT's wayward ways. Essentially it'll take many moons to satisfy this guy they are NOW committed, and aren't into another change-of-direction or retrenchment. For a company of their stature, along with being the Software Gurus, they are sure having troubles deciding whether they want a steak or a peanut butter sandwich.
    Last edited by Elky64; Yesterday at 07:31 PM.
    04-21-2017 06:22 PM
  13. Nate Silver's Avatar
    A flagship on Verizon would absolutely bring me back. I think I've got about as much chance of that as I have of winning the lottery. I still fool around with my old Icon, but now that it is dead-ended....
    04-21-2017 06:49 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    It would take me leaving first. 😉

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-21-2017 06:52 PM
  15. ak_r7's Avatar
    Commitment from MS! Right now, it seems they are carrying a dead corpse. Invest in marketing, new hardware, Apple like support and yes - Apps!!!
    Rather than waiting for the next big shift, work and retain current users.
    Get these and I would gladly dump my android and iPhone.
    Sadly, looks like MS has already thrown in the towel.
    "what could have been the no. 2 mobile OS has been killed by morons"
    04-21-2017 11:38 PM
  16. Drael646464's Avatar
    I've never been in windows 10 mobile. But I'll probably go into windows 10 on arm, in some form of always with me device, next year, or the year after when:

    *windows on arm, and windows cloud have captured more budget tablet, hybrid, laptop marketshare
    *thusly app development for uwp has increased because of greater numbers of tablets and 2 in 1s.
    *Cortana's bot intergration has spawned a healthy skill ecosystem giving voice a lot more power

    I think my preference is for a watch, or some kind of small clamshell. I don't really like the glass slab FF, it feels like being tied to something.

    It's obvious to me that win 10 mobile is simply being kept alive, for a later time, when its viable to re-enter that market properly. With an app deficit of versus android 2.1 million apps, its not a problem one can just throw money at. I'm not really sure what this complaint about commitment to mobile is - being commited to a shrinking marketshare, lost profits, and a generally not very successful venture is pretty much just folly. That's just not a strategy to get mobile marketshare that makes any commercial sense.

    Tablets and other cellular connected PCs is the path to being able to compete in smartphones. Well that and a powerful voice platform. Until those things are in place, windows 10 mobile is basically in a life support pod.

    Its very fortunate MS is clever. If this were any other company they wouldn't have a way back in, and they wouldn't still be doing updates and the mobile platform would be 100% zero doubt dead, and done forever. If it was any other platform there wouldn't be any real app development ongoing (and yet with this platform, because of desktop and tablets, the store is still growing). Because its Windows, none of those things are true.

    If you feel hard done by, go check out the bb10 crowd over at crackberry. Have a gander and their ongoing "support", and their "app store". Get a little perspective.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-22-2017 at 01:31 AM.
    04-22-2017 01:03 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    Commitment from MS! Right now, it seems they are carrying a dead corpse. Invest in marketing, new hardware, Apple like support and yes - Apps!!!
    Rather than waiting for the next big shift, work and retain current users.
    Get these and I would gladly dump my android and iPhone.
    Sadly, looks like MS has already thrown in the towel.
    "what could have been the no. 2 mobile OS has been killed by morons"
    So how many billion dollars do you think it would take to bribe developers to write 2.1 million apps?

    To me, that just sounds completely unviable. Let's say each app is a 100,000 dollar investment, that would be what 210 trillion dollars?

    MS makes about 5 billion a year. Their cashflow is quite small compared to google (7 billion per +quarter+) and apple (18 billion per +quarter+)). If they put every cent of that into apps for mobile, assuming even say 50,000 per app, that would be 100,000 apps per year - taking 21 years of investing every cent of MS's cashflow to catch up to where google is this year. And that would be 21 years of no development on windows 10, or any other product. While competing against companies that could actually afford to do the exact same thing, and keep their companies running.

    I can't really understand why people keep suggesting this sort of thing as a legitimate market strategy. MS needs more than apps, it needs mindshare. The tech world is incredibly competitive, and this is like a game of superchess mixed with a little super poker, add a serious sprinkle of creative innovation -where the stakes are billions of dollars and you have shareholders breathing down your neck.

    Mobile can't be fixed by merely throwing money at it. No amount of "commitment" is going to deliver what windows 10 mobile fans want - apps, marketshare, mindshare and a real future in mobile devices. "Commitment" in MS's situation would be commercial suicide.

    It's a complicated thing, and fortunately MS does have a strategy, one that's quite clever and very visible if one thinks about it. If it plays out as expected, MS on pocket mobile devices will have a real future. That's the best possible commitment one could hope for in the situation.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-22-2017 at 01:44 AM.
    TgeekB, Jackalito and doctah like this.
    04-22-2017 01:08 AM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    Hi All,

    For quite some time now I've watched as every opportunity to increase the market share slipped by Microsoft with them nearly managing to take advantage of it. The build it and they will come attitude of the marketing in my mind has been the cause of this failure. Bitter? Me? A little.

    We are well on the downward spiral from dizzy days of 11% market share. Microsoft themselves seem to be releasing more complete apps to competing platforms, which they are entitled to do. No point feeding the few when the money is where the masses are.

    I'm currently sitting here waiting on my first non windows phone since the day the Lumia 920 was released in the UK. The Galaxy S8 (it'll look like the Microsoft Edition when I'm done with it). My Lumia 950xl is sitting ready to be boxed and sent for recycling.

    This brings me to my question, "What, if anything, would bring you back to a phone running on the Windows platform?"
    You wanna send me your old Lumia? I'd happily pay for shipping. I wouldn't mind having a good play with a windows 10 mobile device. Plus there's good odds, seeing as its still getting upgrades that it will be up to windows 10 on arm when it comes.
    04-22-2017 01:48 AM
  19. captaincalamity's Avatar
    Already returned, couldn't be without the live tiles and dynamic home screen, pin to start, screens full of icons and unhelpful widgets just don't cut it.... there is the apps, but they just annoy me with all the constant adverts.
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-22-2017 03:38 AM
  20. Sedp23's Avatar
    More hardware, more developer support, and more Microsoft support.... They are making me wish i never bought Windows Phone at this point and I've always been on Windows since the HTC touch pro 1

    Sent from Idol 4s
    04-22-2017 04:52 AM
  21. buzzard75's Avatar
    Take a page out of Apple's book. Introduce a single flagship device that works on all major carriers. Don't do multi-tiered devices. Pull the software updates out of the carriers hands. And if you're not going to make the device yourself, find someone to do it for you (hint, hint, Nokia would have been good for this). On top of that, populate the app store. Invest in it. Pay developers of currently popular Android and iOS apps upfront to create apps for the W10M platform with guaranteed support for X-number of years. You'll make your money back and they'll make money on top of it. I think that is a big one and it shows commitment to the platform. No one wants a smartphone if they can't do anything with it. In order to gain more market share, focusing solely on enterprise is not a viable option. There isn't enough market share there to make a difference. Besides that, most people would rather have one device that does it all, unless they are forced to use a specific device for business by whatever company they work for. Thus, devices tend to serve dual purpose and most consumers aren't going to buy a device that has an app store that is dying. I personally don't use a lot of apps, but there are some that would be nice to have that just don't exist on W10M. And no, I'm not talking about just games and time wasters. Don't get me wrong, I love my W10M device. I just know there's going to come a day sometime soon when I have to make a decision to stick it out just a little while longer or make the switch. And if things continue the way they are, my decision to switch will be that much easier.
    04-22-2017 09:32 AM
  22. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Sounds like a good plan to me. 👍
    04-22-2017 10:20 AM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    Take a page out of Apple's book. Introduce a single flagship device that works on all major carriers. Don't do multi-tiered devices. Pull the software updates out of the carriers hands. And if you're not going to make the device yourself, find someone to do it for you (hint, hint, Nokia would have been good for this). On top of that, populate the app store. Invest in it. Pay developers of currently popular Android and iOS apps upfront to create apps for the W10M platform with guaranteed support for X-number of years. You'll make your money back and they'll make money on top of it. I think that is a big one and it shows commitment to the platform. No one wants a smartphone if they can't do anything with it. In order to gain more market share, focusing solely on enterprise is not a viable option. There isn't enough market share there to make a difference. Besides that, most people would rather have one device that does it all, unless they are forced to use a specific device for business by whatever company they work for. Thus, devices tend to serve dual purpose and most consumers aren't going to buy a device that has an app store that is dying. I personally don't use a lot of apps, but there are some that would be nice to have that just don't exist on W10M. And no, I'm not talking about just games and time wasters. Don't get me wrong, I love my W10M device. I just know there's going to come a day sometime soon when I have to make a decision to stick it out just a little while longer or make the switch. And if things continue the way they are, my decision to switch will be that much easier.
    In what parallel universe is "the app store dying"? At least if you make such claims, back it up with something, IMO, give some examples or evidence. The stores getting bigger all the time, dying just doesn't make any sense.

    Google play has 2.8 million. The windows store is only up to 700,000 so far, its only slightly bigger than the amazon app store.

    I really don't think spending major cash on Spotify and snapchat is going to sell the platform. You need a great deal more than that. And MS is a company that makes less than a quarter of what alphabet makes, and less than a tenth of what apple makes

    If it were to play the game of bribing developers, not only would it just be a "me too" product, it would be doing so in a manner than could easily be outclassed by its competition who have vastly more cashflow.

    Windows on mobile devices needs to be more than a third copycat. It needs to be noteably better at something that people want. There is no room for a third look-a-like.

    And this is 100% out of apples book. When apple was nearly beat in desktop, and nearly when under, steve jobs came back, cut costs, leaned up the company and focused on development and innovation. They also "betrayed their users" by switching to intel over risc, and reduced the total number of macs, to just one.

    Years later they came out with the ipod. Then the iPhone. And that's how we arrive at today. He is on record as saying his strategy was "to wait for the next big thing". MS is cutting costs, slimming down, and focusing on innovation. It's a basic steve jobs play, straight out of apples playbook.

    And that's why they are not pouring money into phones, but trying to fight battles they have better odds of winning, while focusing on future technologies.

    Also, premium markets are literally just about to start shrinking. They already are in mature markets. The make money from iphones model is a well that's going to run dry. Which is why google, apple, Samsung, are all also looking for 'the next big thing".
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-22-2017 at 12:09 PM.
    04-22-2017 11:43 AM
  24. RumoredNow's Avatar
    Bribing developers has been done before. It gets you poorly performing apps that aren't maintained and go bad. The devs take the payment, cobble something together and walk away.
    04-22-2017 11:54 AM
  25. buzzard75's Avatar
    In what parallel universe is "the app store dying"? At least if you make such claims, back it up with something, IMO, give some examples or evidence. The stores getting bigger all the time, dying just doesn't make any sense.

    Google play has 2.8 million. The windows store is only up to 700,000 so far, its only slightly bigger than the amazon app store.

    I really don't think spending major cash on Spotify and snapchat is going to sell the platform. You need a great deal more than that. And MS is a company that makes less than a quarter of what alphabet makes, and less than a tenth of what apple makes
    If it were to play the game of bribing developers, not only would it just be a "me too" product, it would be doing so in a manner than could easily be outclassed by its competition who have vastly more cashflow.

    Windows on mobile devices needs to be more than a third copycat. It needs to be noteably better at something that people want. There is no room for a third look-a-like.

    And this is 100% out of apples book. When apple was nearly beat in desktop, and nearly when under, steve jobs came back, cut costs, leaned up the company and focused on development and innovation. They also "betrayed their users" by switching to intel over risc, and reduced the total number of macs, to just one.

    Years later they came out with the ipod. Then the iPhone. And that's how we arrive at today. He is on record as saying his strategy was "to wait for the next big thing". MS is cutting costs, slimming down, and focusing on innovation. It's a basic steve jobs play, straight out of apples playbook.

    And that's why they are not pouring money into phones, but trying to fight battles they have better odds of winning, while focusing on future technologies.

    Also, premium markets are literally just about to start shrinking. They already are in mature markets. The make money from iphones model is a well that's going to run dry. Which is why google, apple, Samsung, are all also looking for 'the next big thing".

    It just seems like not a day goes by that you don't hear about a developer closing up shop on the Windows Store. Yes, there are a lot of apps on the store, but how many of those are quality apps? How many of those are knock-off alternatives that don't work as well? You could ask the same for the rest, but I would say the ratio of good to bad apps are much better on Google, Amazon, and Apple than they are on Windows. And even if they are the same apps as the other platforms, they tend to run better because they are spending development funding on them. That money is coming from app purchases.

    It may not be the best solution, but they have to do something to shore up the store and give people more reason to pick up a Windows phone when comparing it to an Android or iOS device. Paying them off up front may not be the best or the right answer, but a deal has to be made somewhere to get them to even consider coming to the Windows Store. You're absolutely right, one or two apps is not going to do it. They need to improve the overall health of the store with high quality apps across the board. If you don't even have the user base to guarantee sales of apps, you have to get creative to sell the developers on Windows. It's the chicken and the egg problem. Which comes first, the users or the apps? No one's going to buy your devices if you can't do anything with them other than basic functions, and no developer is going to design an app for your device if no one is there to buy it.

    In my opinion, Windows is a better platform. As I've said elsewhere, I love my Nokia Lumia. I've had it for over three years now and it's the most stable phone I've ever owned. I have had essentially zero issues with it. It's been supported up to this point and I see no reason why that support should stop given the specs of my phone until something like Windows on ARM is on a telephony device and becomes the norm. But with the limited list of devices for the Creator's Update, I've come to the realization that I'm going to have to make a decision very soon.
    04-22-2017 01:41 PM
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