What's our official line here?

[Muessig]

Okay. Does everyone agree on this and do you think those the official threads we need or do we need different ones?

 

[Laura Knotek]

Okay. Does everyone agree on this and do you think those the official threads we need or do we need different ones?

I like this. I can work on threads tonight and also work on a statement mentioning where posts should go.

 

[a5cent]

Okay guys, newbie moderator here ;-)

I sent a PM off to Laura, but this might be the better place for it. Basically, I'm not clear on what goes into the "Windows Phone 8.1" forum and what goes into the "Preview for Developers" forum. Why?

a) as far as I know, what we've got on our WP devices is the final version of WP8.1 (or at least it is intended to be).
b) at least for now, 99% of our discussion about WP8.1 is based on the preview.

Based on those two things, it seems to me any WP8.1 related post could go into either forum. Based on what I've seen so far, it seems I should be moving most threads (everything?) into the "Preview for Developers" forum, but that seems strange. It implies that the "Windows Phone 8.1" forum should, from now on and until the official WP8.1 release is rolled out via the OEMs, essentially be frozen, i.e. off limits to new posts...

Yes, I'm confused, and obviously our members are too. I don't think it is our members that are going crazy and arbitrarily posting whatever they want wherever they want (well, that happens too apparently), but it is our forum names and an unclear policy of what belongs where that is causing us this massive amount of work (moving/closing threads).

I think something requires re-thinking. Right now I'm not even really sure if the "Preview for Developers" thread still makes sense. I think the WPC article on the issue and hopmedic's stickied thread have all the bases covered that are directly related to the program itself. At least to me, everything else seems like it is WP8.1 related and separating some/most/all of that into two forums based on rules that nobody really understands is counterproductive.

So, to sum up: HELP! ;-)

 

[a5cent]

Okay. Does everyone agree on this and do you think those the official threads we need or do we need different ones?

Yep. I would definitely welcome something like that! It still leaves me in the dark about the ambiguity between the "preview for developers" and "Windows Phone 8.1" forums, but I definitely like the idea.

 

[Laura Knotek]

In the past we didn't have forums for official OSes until they were made official. I'd be in favor of killing the 8.1 forum completely at this point and putting everything into the Developer Preview forum, since there is no official 8.1 yet.

If we keep it like it is, we'll have a mess once official 8.1 is out.

 

[rockstarzzz]

In the past we didn't have forums for official OSes until they were made official. I'd be in favor of killing the 8.1 forum completely at this point and putting everything into the Developer Preview forum, since there is no official 8.1 yet.

If we keep it like it is, we'll have a mess once official 8.1 is out.

+1 on this!

 

[Muessig]

So the way I see it, we dissolve the current Windows Phone 8.1 forum, dissolve the posts into the Developer Preview forum and rename that to Windows Phone 8.1 Developer Preview with Cortana as a sub-forum.

And then we put the new [Official] threads at the top of the forum. This isn't going to stop people making new topics (nor is it supposed to) but maybe it'd stop people making 50 threads about the same thing.

I'm just wondering from a new member's position is there anything we're doing here that would be confusion or jarring? If I make a thread about something and they it's been merged into a different forum and lost, would that irritate me?

 

[Laura Knotek]

So the way I see it, we dissolve the current Windows Phone 8.1 forum, dissolve the posts into the Developer Preview forum and rename that to Windows Phone 8.1 Developer Preview with Cortana as a sub-forum.

And then we put the new [Official] threads at the top of the forum. This isn't going to stop people making new topics (nor is it supposed to) but maybe it'd stop people making 50 threads about the same thing.

I'm just wondering from a new member's position is there anything we're doing here that would be confusion or jarring? If I make a thread about something and they it's been merged into a different forum and lost, would that irritate me?

I like this idea for the renaming of the forums.

For new members, I think it would be less confusing if their threads got closed and they got a link to the [Official] threads instead of just getting threads merged. Merging can be really confusing even for experienced members, since it frequently makes the time stamp out of order and ruins a conversation, especially when quotes are involved.

 

[James Falconer]

Folks... first off, thanks for all the discussion here. Very much appreciated.

Second, big thanks to Daniel, Laura and Muessig... we discussed this at length today, and think we have come up with a wonderful solution. Should make things clear for members.

Ok, take a look at this: http://forums.windowscentral.com/#windows-phone-operating-system

You'll notice, things are quite clear now. The preview for developers is at the top, and Windows Phone 8.1 is in upcoming/rumored. Members should know where to post now!

DO move any relevant threads from the WP 8.1 thread to the Preview for Developers forum... but keep in mind, general discussion of the upcoming official release should go in the upcoming/rumored 8.1 forum.

DO retitle any poorly titled threads. Think about what users are searching for out there... 'help Cortana on my 520' is a terrible title, I'd change that to read 'Help with Cortana on my Lumia 520'. Doing this on a regular basis is huge.

DO encourage discussion at all costs!

DO be friendly and welcoming! Things are incredibly busy at WPC, and this is an opportunity to really grow the community!

I could go on for awhile but I'm going to stop here for now.

/rant

 

[a5cent]

Much better! Thanks to all of you!

DO move any relevant threads from the WP 8.1 thread to the Preview for Developers forum... but keep in mind, general discussion of the upcoming official release should go in the upcoming/rumored 8.1 forum.

The above is the only part that I'm still not 100% clear on.

AFAIK the developer preview IS WP8.1. There is no difference, or at least MS doesn't intend for there to be any meaningful modifications between now and the official rollout. To my mind, that means there is no difference between a discussion of the "upcoming & rumoured\WP8.1" OS and a discussion of the "developer preview" OS. They are both, for all practical purposes, the same version of WP. Right? At least that is my current understanding (supported by Dan's article on the topic).

So, to my mind, the reorganization has made it quite clear that basically everything related to WP8.1 belongs in the "Windows Phone 8.1 Preview for Developers" forum (for now). I think you (James) already stated the one and only exception, which would be discussions related to the official release dates on various carriers. However, I do find the devotion of an entire forum to that single topic odd, to say the least.

To say the same thing differently... the only difference between these two forums seems temporal in nature:

• if we are discussing WP8.1 now, put it into the developer preview thread, or
• if we are discussing WP8.1 two months from now, put it into the official WP8.1 thread.

But what happens when some members start receiving WP8.1 through carrier OTA updates, while others are still on the developer preview version? To make matters worse, assume that both of these groups are likely to see the same OS build number on their devices (which is what we had for GDR3). Where do members post then? IMHO we are still asking for confused members... or maybe it's just me that is confused... that wouldn't be a first ;-)

IMHO the developer preview forum should be devoted to the actual program: How do I register? Is this a beta version? Is it safe? I'm not a developer, but can I get it anyway? Those kind of issues. Making the developer preview forum about the actual OS seems (to me anyway) like we are making a distinction between OS versions where there simply isn't one. Am I wrong?

I think it is much better than it was, but I'm not sure it is as good as it could be (sorry for being a pain in the ***). Any clarifications would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rockstarzzz]

The reason why it is a bad idea to think this preview to be the same as actual thing is because so called bugs in all these thread or lets say majority of them that are flooding the forum, are related to the fact that it is a preview. Yes, in the past preview has been what real deal is. This time it is the same. But the sheer influx of impatient and ill informed or below average knowledged users is massive this time. They are complaining about 80% stuff that are fixed either by hard reset or the fact that os has changed it now. Only real issue out there is xbox music. But do we really need 100 threads about integration, apps not throwing toasts in action centre etc to be in WP8.1?

All that does is fills up the forum with so much negativity where nn Microsoft deserves a round of applause here for what they've been able to pull off!

 

[a5cent]

The reason why it is a bad idea to think this preview to be the same as actual thing is because so called bugs in all these thread or lets say majority of them that are flooding the forum, are related to the fact that it is a preview. Yes, in the past preview has been what real deal is. This time it is the same. But the sheer influx of impatient and ill informed or below average knowledged users is massive this time. They are complaining about 80% stuff that are fixed either by hard reset or the fact that os has changed it now. Only real issue out there is xbox music. But do we really need 100 threads about integration, apps not throwing toasts in action centre etc to be in WP8.1?

Yeah, we definitely have that problem. I guess I just think we could find a better solution. One that doesn't suggest differences where none exist, and which avoids the issues I mentioned in my previous post. Why don't we just make it explicit? Something like this:

Windows Phone Operating System
___Windows Phone 8.1
______Cortana
______Problems with the Windows Phone 8.1 Developer Preview

Wouldn't that be even better at localizing the complaints to a specific forum?
Wouldn't that save us from having to re-shuffle forums and posts again down the road (much of the stuff in the preview forum is not just preview related)?
Wouldn't that be a lot less ambiguous than having separate "WP8.1" and "developer preview" forums, which are ultimately expected to be one and the same thing?

Just to be clear. I have no problem falling in line here, but I'd at least need more help in determining what goes into the developer preview (I'd currently say everything...) and WP8.1 forums (...except discussions of carrier release dates).

 

[Laura Knotek]

I've gone through the first 24 pages of the Windows Phone 8.1 forum and moved most of the threads to the Windows Phone 8.1 Preview for Developers or Cortana forums.

I believe I've looked at everything that was posted since 14 April.

The forums should be more manageable now, as long as the threads related to WP8.1 Preview for Developers get moved there quickly if in the wrong place now.

 

[James Falconer]

I can understand the concerns here for sure... and how some members may still end up in the WP8.1 forum instead of the developer preview forum. We may need to make things clear (again), and that's OK! The good news is, since I last logged in it looks like the majority of posts are going in the right place now. Folks get it. But we can still do better. Here's what I'm suggesting... I've bolded the suggested changes:

Windows Phone 8.1 Preview for Developers
- Cortana

Windows Phone 8
- Windows Phone 8 Guides and How to's

Windows Phone 7

Upcoming/Rumored OS's
- Microsoft Preview for Developers Program ( <-- for the official program discussion only)
- Windows Phone 8.1 (official release)
- Windows Phone 8.2

@a5cent - regarding your suggestions. I love it... my only concern is, I think many folks would still post in the main 8.1 forum instead of the 'problems' forum... We might end up where we started if we lay things out in that manner?

 

[Laura Knotek]

@a5cent, my main concern is that if we had a "problems" forum, that might end up being a top trending forum. In my humble opinion, it would not look good for the site if a forum about problems ended up in the top trending list. That would make Windows Phone look very bad and scare off people who might be considering Windows Phone.

As for the differences and similarities between 8.1 Preview and 8.1 Official, I am not sure how many similarities and differences there will be in the preview and in the various carrier official releases.

 

[Muessig]

Okay, I can only give my opinion here and share the concerns that I have. Here goes.

So it seems that most people have figured out which forum they need to be posting in. That's a huge success. We still don't have [Official] forums setup as of this post, and yesterday at peak we had nearly 28,000 concurrent users. Today at peak we had about 17,000. To me that makes me wonder if we've already been too late on this front. I dunno.

As far as a5cents concerns go, I think they're very valid and it's all about our understanding and the purpose of these forums. I think you're right in saying the developer preview as it is right now IS fundamentally WP8.1. What else could it be, right? My take on this is that we have the current version of 8.1 on our phones, so I'd be really surprised if they didn't update the OS a time or two before we all get it OTA. I'm confident in saying that the individual carriers have this preview and are testing the bugs and feeding back to MS themselves. All this makes me think that the version of 8.1 we get OTA especially for some carriers like AT&T will be different in functionality than they are now, which validates the need for a developer preview for me.

So what's the 8.1 forum itself for? To get this answer I think we need to understand what the developer preview forum is for. In my mind it's for all of the questions, comments and reactions related to the developer preview - that's what you do like, what you don't like, bugs, how this works or what's changed here. So if the developer preview forum is a reaction forum for right now (like the GDR 3 Preview was) I think the 8.1 forum should be what the WP8 forum is right now; it should have wider questions and comments that relate to the OS as a whole - why does backup work like this?, anything related to the OS that is persistent and not an immediate reaction to something new and shiny.

Ultimately though, you're completely correct - if we organise like this it's all temporal. Except for the bugs and complaints... and is that a bad thing? The developer preview forum right now is a place for people to get help and advise and learn their new phones. It's filling that need now. We don't need that when 8.1 goes OTA - we'll have different needs and comments then. And if we have people that haven't updated or tried 8.1 at that point asking the same questions they are in a much better position to get direct solutions in the new threads they create then - as a direct result of letting the developer preview forum act as a reactive forum right now.

This is how I think we might need to go from here:

Make the [Official] threads if we agree it's not too late to steer people's reactions into constructive threads at this point.
Once the 8.1 update goes live we move the 8.1 developer preview down to a subforum in the Developers Corner
We make a new subforum within the Developer's corner discussion the developer preview as an initiative
Make sure we're all retitling threads to be as useful as possible
We need to go through the huge threads like dislikes, bugs and initial thoughts and put the most useful info (e.g. bugs and solutions) in the OP's.

Doing this keeps everything clear for the members - if you want to talk about the developer preview as a program, go here. If you want to discuss the 8.1 developer preview, go here. If you want to discuss where MS are headed with the 8.1 OS update as a whole, go here.

I'm sure there are problems with these thoughts, but it at least means each forum we've discussed have definite roles and we still keep the 8.1 forum as a means to ramp up interest in the OS when it's about to go live OTA. It also keeps more people coming to the forum and finding us through Search Engine Optimisation (SEO), as we'll have forums for the important parts of Windows Phone.

Thus end the ramblings of a mad man.

 

[HeyCori]

So I'm going to toss this out there.

Should we have the ambassadors create an official "solutions" thread?

A simple collection of the most asked questions and changes. It could be built inside the ambassador's forum, locked and then moved to the official 8.1 when carriers/Microsoft releases the final version. I think it would help a ton with repeat questions.

 

[Muessig]

So I'm going to toss this out there.

Should we have the ambassadors create an official "solutions" thread?

A simple collection of the most asked questions and changes. It could be built inside the ambassador's forum, locked and then moved to the official 8.1 when carriers/Microsoft releases the final version. I think it would help a ton with repeat questions.

Heh funny you should say this. We've got a conversation thread spreadsheet for the ambassadors to draw from when making new threads. I've been adding 50-60 new thread ideas over the last day or two for them and they are all questions focused on 8.1 and the most common questions we're seeing. My idea is that the thread title is the common question and in the thread itself is a mini-guide thread that shows the problem and then the solution. I'm thinking we can get all these really common issues talked about now and when the OTA comes out we can have a separate area or section where people can find their answers really quickly.

Here's the link to the conversation starters document, anyone with this link can edit and add new ideas - please feel free to add some whenever you think of any (please bookmark it!)

http://1drv.ms/1qHnlRB

 

[HeyCori]

That's some good work there!

 

[a5cent]

I think I've used up my being-a-pain-in-the-*** quota for this thread, so I won't add any more to what has already been said ;-)

I think if we make a few sticky threads dedicated to the most common complaints and problems, like Muessig suggested, we'll already be a lot better off than we are now.

Ultimately, I'll be fine with whatever you more experienced folks decide, as long as you let me know what goes where. As it is now, I'm still thinking everything goes into the preview forum, except carrier release discussions. Tell me if this is correct, or give me clear guidance, and I'll get to work ;-)

On a side note: I'll be heading off to Paris in the next few days and won't have a lot of time to spend online, so please excuse my absence. I will be attempting a marriage proposal so wish me luck ;-)