View Poll Results: 10 S or Pro on Surface Laptop?

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  • Windows 10 S

    4 23.53%
  • Windows 10 Pro

    13 76.47%
05-15-2017 09:12 PM
32 12
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  1. Elco Smits's Avatar
    Hey guys,

    First post on this platform and would like to start a little discussion with you. Will Windows 10 S help the mobile platform as more universal apps might be developed? Is that a planned strategy by Microsoft and if so, why do they allow the laptops to be upgraded to Pro?

    What would you do? Windows 10 S or Pro?
    05-14-2017 02:21 AM
  2. Drael646464's Avatar
    In a round about way.

    The centennial bridge, which is what most developers will use to get their programs into the store is only sort of a "part way" UWP app. There's additional work then to make it into a true UWP that runs across all devices. So Windows S encourages a sort of "phase one"

    To encourage that "phase two", I believe MSFT is relying on windows on arm tablets/notebooks and project scorpio. Or that's how I see it playing out.

    All going well, these two strategies however should increase true UWP together, and thus yes, help the whole "Onecore" vision across devices.
    kaktus1389 and ajcletus500 like this.
    05-14-2017 03:06 AM
  3. Rodgers Momanyi's Avatar
    Windows 10 S is the first real push to make people use the Windows Store as their primary source of UWP applications. If people actually use this they would be interested on a mobile device...not necessarily a phone but a new category device that has phone calls capability. I know I would want a 6 inch device that runs all Store apps....even centennial designed to run on a mid range screen
    05-14-2017 03:10 AM
  4. PieterDelagr's Avatar
    I think Microsoft wants 10s to become very popular so developpers make apps for it, when there are anough apps, Microsoft will launch a Surface Phone
    05-14-2017 04:08 AM
  5. lanakaryatna's Avatar
    Microsoft said UWP can be used for any device but in reality, UWP in pc store not all can installed on phone.
    05-14-2017 09:47 AM
  6. JohnnyRedLight's Avatar
    why can't Windows 10 just be slapped onto a phone? Mondern phones are more powerful than laptops and tablets with Atom CPUs.... is it just because of the GUI?
    05-14-2017 10:13 AM
  7. kaktus1389's Avatar
    In a round about way.

    The centennial bridge, which is what most developers will use to get their programs into the store is only sort of a "part way" UWP app. There's additional work then to make it into a true UWP that runs across all devices. So Windows S encourages a sort of "phase one"

    To encourage that "phase two", I believe MSFT is relying on windows on arm tablets/notebooks and project scorpio. Or that's how I see it playing out.

    All going well, these two strategies however should increase true UWP together, and thus yes, help the whole "Onecore" vision across devices.
    Actually ARM based devices that are going to run full Windows 10 won't need any special modifications of the centennial apps because of the emulation.

    Perhaps we shall see what is their plan for phase two in the upcoming events.

    It is not going to help mobile directly, but it's definitely going to make Windows Store more populated with quality apps, which they desperately need. That should show developers that the Windows Store can be profitable, so perhaps then they will start "converting" their Win32/Centennial apps to full UWP apps.
    05-14-2017 10:19 AM
  8. Drael646464's Avatar
    Microsoft said UWP can be used for any device but in reality, UWP in pc store not all can installed on phone.
    There are real UWP app and then their are "centennial bridge" apps which are not real UWPs, but sort of "started" rather than "finished", in the port from win32.

    Ontop of that developers can choose which devices their code will run on. We should see more real UWP apps over time, but still not all will run on everything, just most.

    It's a work in progress because coders have to do everything differently, port their apis. It's a big change windows 10, to make apps more flexible and secure.
    05-14-2017 10:22 AM
  9. Drael646464's Avatar
    Actually ARM based devices that are going to run full Windows 10 won't need any special modifications of the centennial apps because of the emulation.

    Perhaps we shall see what is their plan for phase two in the upcoming events.

    It is not going to help mobile directly, but it's definitely going to make Windows Store more populated with quality apps, which they desperately need. That should show developers that the Windows Store can be profitable, so perhaps then they will start "converting" their Win32/Centennial apps to full UWP apps.
    IoT core, HoloLens, Windows 10 mobile and console all require UWP apps not win32, and three of those are ARM based. At least some of those will not be running full windows 10 in any kind of quick timeframe due to hardware requirements, OS function, and to a lesser degree the construction of the shell.

    Take something like the Kodi centennial bridge app. It runs great on a big screen, and works fine on a larger tablet, but it would start to get a little cramped on a smaller tablet, and wouldn't work on a phone sized device. It's "somewhat" touch optimised, but not fully, doesn't scale well, doesn't run on xbox, or phones, or IoT core or HoloLens or mixed reality.

    I think like the software bridges, windows on arm, is like an "os bridge", to help the legacy uses move over to the modern way of doing things. Once most things are UWP, its served its purpose.

    But yeah, as you say, if MSFT can get developers into the store, they will probably want to create full UWP apps over time, so they can roll their software to console, mixed reality, IoT, phones, HoloLens, and so they scale well to different screen sizes and inputs for tablets as well.

    The genius of the arm move, is that LTE/telephony/GPS enabled tablets and hybrids will also benefit from all those mobility apps - things like snapchat, lyft, banking apps and so on that are missing from the UWP platform.

    And THOSE developers won't be coming in via the centennial bridge - they would come in through via islandwood (the porting gateway from iOS) to xamarin 2 - a revised codebase that enables an apparently large amount of code sharing across android, ios and uwp, whilst preserving UI features. For a fair bit of initial work in the port, those coders save work later on, in maintaining three OSes with greater ease.

    Resulting in, once windows on arm comes to tablets, fingers crossed, a bunch of mobility focused full UWP apps of the more "smartphone" variety.

    Between that (windows on arm/islandwood/xamarin 2) and the centennial bridge/window s, all things going well, the windows store will look considerably healthier by the end of next year in terms of scaling full UWP. Healthy especially because it will be gaining from desktop apps, not merely mobility apps.

    I know people complain about the store, how long things take, but the scale of what MS is trying to achieve is bigger than anything its really ever done. The shift to 32 bit and windows 95, or NT/XP is minor by comparison. And they have to move developers and users into the new way of thinking in terms of modernizing the app platform and creating a unified platform.
    It's a huge task. Even what MSFT themselves are doing at the OS end is mammoth (trying to get windows 10 to handle, virtual reality and mobile, and wearables and all that adaptively).
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-14-2017 at 10:48 AM.
    ajcletus500 likes this.
    05-14-2017 10:36 AM
  10. kaktus1389's Avatar
    IoT core, HoloLens, Windows 10 mobile and console all require UWP apps not win32, and three of those are ARM based. At least some of those will not be running full windows 10 in any kind of quick timeframe due to hardware requirements, OS function, and to a lesser degree the construction of the shell.

    Additionally UWP provides a framework for apps to be flexible across devices, whereas plain old ported win32, run exactly like they do on the desktop. It would definitely not be in MSFTs interest to have an app store only full of centennial bridge apps, with little or not modification from their win32 form, as it would lock them into a larger screen, mouse based input/output modality.

    But yeah, as you say, if MSFT can get developers into the store, they will probably want to create full UWP apps over time, so they can roll their software to console, mixed reality, IoT, phones, HoloLens, and so they scale well to different screen sizes and inputs for tablets as well.

    The genius of the arm move, is that LTE/telephony/GPS enabled tablets and hybrids will also benefit from all those mobility apps - things like snapchat, lyft, banking apps and so on that are missing from the UWP platform. And those developers won't be coming in via the centennial bridge - they would come in through via islandwood (the porting gateway from ios) to xamarin 2 - a revised codebase that enables an apparently large amount of code sharing across android, ios and uwp, whilst preserving UI features. Resulting in, once windows on arm comes to tablets, fingers crossed, a bunch of mobility focused full UWP apps.

    Between that and the centennial bridge, all things going well, the windows store will look considerably healthier by the end of next year in terms of scaling full UWP.
    I was talking about future Windows 10 on Arm devices, which are going to have Win32 emulation, didn't mention mobile, HoloLens or IoT.
    05-14-2017 10:38 AM
  11. Hafeez M's Avatar
    Well windows phones are dying mainly because of the lack of app support compared to Android and IOS so I think the Windows S is a strategic move by Microsoft to increase the development of windows store apps. If enough manufactures start using Windows S in there laptops(the budget ones) we may see a substantially more number of apps on the windows store.
    Last edited by Hafeez M; 05-14-2017 at 10:51 AM. Reason: grammar error
    05-14-2017 10:49 AM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    It's also a task (the hybrid OS side) all the other guys will probably have to attempt sometime too (apple and google), and because its such a huge task, this early days stuff actually gives MS a damn good lead, time wise. I'd be surprised if even apple could catch up now, and they have mega bucks, and healthy platform on two different scales.
    05-14-2017 10:50 AM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    I was talking about future Windows 10 on Arm devices, which are going to have Win32 emulation, didn't mention mobile, HoloLens or IoT.
    Well yeah, the WoA tablets/servers/hybrids/notebooks will be able to run win32s, at native scaling, but intel devices of those sizes can already do that. In that sense its not the software that changes, only the hardware.

    The main benefits of ARM there are the chipset features - cheap price, built in telephony etc. Which is what will attract the islandwood iOS angle, as windows s is attracting the centennial bridge angle from windows developers.

    They'll probably eventually have non-store apps default switched off. Eventually they'll want people to move from centennial, from win32, and from islandwood, to just coding UWPs (and other platforms via xamarin) and Cortana skills.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-14-2017 at 11:03 AM.
    05-14-2017 10:52 AM
  14. T-Jay1's Avatar
    I really hope Windows 10 S will give the Universal Winows Platform a great boost. If the app gap would become a little closer that way, MS might finally launch a surface phone or at least a new Windows 10 mobile device. However it's a good sign that iTunes and Spotify will be released.
    05-14-2017 11:03 AM
  15. kaktus1389's Avatar
    Well yeah, the WoA tablets/servers/hybrids/notebooks will be able to run win32s, at native scaling, but intel devices of those sizes can already do that. In that sense its not the software that changes, only the hardware.

    The main benefits of ARM there are the chipset features - cheap price, built in telephony etc. Which is what will attract the islandwood iOS angle, as windows s is attracting the centennial bridge angle from windows developers.

    They'll probably eventually have non-store apps default switched off. Eventually they'll want people to move from centennial, from win32, and from islandwood, to just coding UWPs (and other platforms via xamarin) and Cortana skills.
    Not only cheap price and telephony, the biggest benefit here is that devices can be thinner and lighter and also consume less battery. I agree that it's likely that they will come with Windows 10 S first.
    05-14-2017 11:05 AM
  16. Genex13's Avatar
    I really hope Windows 10 S will give the Universal Winows Platform a great boost. If the app gap would become a little closer that way, MS might finally launch a surface phone or at least a new Windows 10 mobile device. However it's a good sign that iTunes and Spotify will be released.
    If I remember correctly, Spotify will only be released as a PC application (not UWP) and they just recently put their Windowsphone app into maintainance mode. If this is the general strategy for major app developers, there won't be any profit for mobile and the app gap won't change at all. Sadly, this will be my prediction regarding the future of the store.
    05-14-2017 12:13 PM
  17. Ntokozo Mkhize's Avatar
    I hope it does hey. I miss Windows mobile.
    05-14-2017 12:20 PM
  18. Eric Edmondson's Avatar
    A lot of people are mad at them but I think it's a good idea releasing a desirable product which is initially locked down to store apps. We already see that Spotify and iTunes coming to the store which will be a good initial boost for other developers to make rich applications and I think the idea or the hope is that it will get to a point where a student will buy a windows 10S computer and not feel the need to search further than the store for the app they want. It has worked with the iPad and it could work with the Surface Laptop or any Windows 10S device in the future.
    And because people are developing apps as UWP apps it would just take a bit of encouragement from Microsoft for the developers to make them work well on Win 10 mobile
    05-14-2017 01:00 PM
  19. benbg55's Avatar
    I don't think Windows 10S will help for mobile cause the converted apps coming to the store are only working in Win32 and mobile is only ARM. If there's a phone working on Win32 architecture it will be good. Maybe future Surface Phone will be like that....
    #WaitinForIt
    05-14-2017 01:57 PM
  20. iharkins's Avatar
    I'd love to believe it will help Windows 10 Mobile but I (along with most everyone else) think it's too late now. Microsoft's retrenchment killed it.

    I think there's a snobbery throughout the tech industry against Microsoft (due to their past ways) that still haunts them today. For all Balmer's talk they never really got developers on board. All the constant reboots (WP7, WP7.5, WP8, WP8.1, WM10) just showed they didn't have a clear vision for mobile. Ironically, WM10 was just starting to make some sense before they hammered the final nail in the coffin.

    If Microsoft are ever thinking of getting back into mobile then they must be playing a very long term game. The danger with that though is iOS and Android will have the market sewn up and dependent on them.

    I (still) hope I'm wrong.
    05-14-2017 03:59 PM
  21. L0n3N1nja's Avatar
    Combined with Arm later this year we may get some interesting tablets, and hopefully that improves the app situation.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    05-14-2017 04:43 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    why can't Windows 10 just be slapped onto a phone? Mondern phones are more powerful than laptops and tablets with Atom CPUs.... is it just because of the GUI?
    The UI is just one reason, but obviously an important one. Interacting with a UI made for mouse and keyboard with your finger is a major pain in the rear, even on a large screen (a finger can't hover over an element like a mouse, there is no right mouse button, etc) . On a small phone sized screen it's entirely unusable. It's only viable when hooked up to a larger screen with the required peripherals. Period.

    There is also the issue of expectations. Mobile OSes are basically maintenance free. Anybody can use them without requiring any formal understanding of IT whatsoever. That is simply not true of the maintenance-heavy and complicated desktop OSes. The simplicity of mobile OSes is why consumers have come to prefer mobile computing devices. Putting a desktop OS on a phone is guaranteed to annoy the majority of consumers for those reasons. The second the average consumer is told to update a driver, use a registry cleaner or reinstall Windows on their phone sized device (even if MS sells it as something different), is the second most consumers will throw W10-on-a-phone (at least mentally) in the trash bin.

    Security is another issue. A security breach on a Windows PC is already bad enough. That problem is compounded on a device that is loaded with sensors, used for payments and has precise tracking capabilities. That provides a gateway to acquire far more personal information than what can typically be gleaned from a compromised PC. W10 is very insecure compared to W10S or W10M, so as an OS, it's simply not a good match for such a personal device.

    There are more reasons, but I consider those the most important.

    Technically, putting W10 on a phone or phone-like device poses no problem whatsoever. The problem is that it's just fundamentally a bad idea. On a side note, that should also make us a bit skeptical of the potential behind the upcoming W10 on ARM, since it's exactly that.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-17-2017 at 11:47 PM. Reason: spelling
    tgp likes this.
    05-15-2017 09:51 AM
  23. nealcooper's Avatar
    I think that developers will use project centennial rather than creating an all new application for Windows 10 S even if that application would also work on Mobile.

    Even now we can see that some applications that are available thought the Windows store on mobile and PC are better on PC. I'm thinking about the Messenger and Facebook apps that have more features on PC than mobile.

    As long as there is no new successful flagship for W10M, developers will forget the Mobile part of Windows 10.
    05-15-2017 10:20 AM
  24. Joe Frazier's Avatar
    I don't think that S will help because I don't see a large adoption of the Surface laptop. It's a beautiful machine but doesn't bring anything new to the table. S may be deployed to places that really want to limit what users can download but enterprises already do that today and consumers have already indicated they don't want that limitation (RT). You can get equally nice laptops for less so I just don't see this having much impact even with the, now, diluted Surface branding.
    05-15-2017 10:37 AM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    Technically, putting W10 on a phone or phone-like device poses no problem whatsoever. The problem is that it's just fundamentally a bad idea. On a side note, that should also make us a bit skeptical of the potential behind the upcoming W10 on ARM, since it's exactly that.
    No, it's actually not, despite some serious confusion amongst fans that seems to get spread unfortunately.

    Windows on ARM is for tablets, notebooks (and servers); growing marketshare windows 10 devices (windows tablets for example are strongly growing in a marketplace that overall is actually shrinking - apple and Samsung have posted about 3-4 years of lost marketshare)

    Windows on ARM is not for phones. Its for devices where people appreciated the expanded capabilities of full windows 10.

    You raise some great points about full desktop OS on phones though. Makes one wonder how google's hybrid OS fushia, or apples if it ever turns up will deal with such issues.
    05-15-2017 10:43 AM
32 12

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