Welcome to the Windows Central Forums Create Your Account or Ask a Question Answers in 5 minutes - no registration required!

View Poll Results: What do you think why OEMs not including quad cores on WP?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • To just create one more in-between generation of phones.

    19 38.00%
  • They dont have capability to do so.

    3 6.00%
  • Windows Phone 8 dont need it.

    29 58.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 54
Like Tree11Likes
  1. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
    #26  
    Trouble isn't coding for multiple cores, it's that the current chipsets don't support LTE (which I find to be somewhat overhyped, especially with data caps).

    A WP OEM could release a quad-core 4G Windows Phone on T-Mobile right now that runs on HSPA+, but it wouldn't support LTE (so people would complain). Plus, it would be a specialized/"exclusive" phone only sold on one carrier, which is a bad idea.

    Once Qualcomm gets Snapdragon Quad core running with LTE and LTE-Advanced, you'll see a whole bunch of quad-core WP8 phones. Promise! :)
  2. power5's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,208 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,590 Global Posts
    #27  
    You realize of course that the first LTE phones did not have LTE in the chipset I hope.
  3. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
    #28  
    Yes... and performance, data speeds and battery life SUCKED as a result.
  4. alzaeem's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    10 Posts
    #29  
    OEMs don't have the capability to do so. In a smart phone all system components are intergrated into one chip (a system on a chip), which in windows phone's case is always made by Qualcomm. For a chip to work with an OS the chip maker needs to write drivers for the whole chip which allows the OS to control it, so OEMs can only work with the chips that are currently supported by WP8, which doesn't include any quad core at the moment.

    Now qualcomm only recently released their first quad core chip which is used in the nexus 4, so perhaps it's a shame that it's not supported, but there are reasons for that. This chip doesn't have integrated modem making it more expensive for OEMs by requiring a separate modem. Also, Qualcomm supports Android for all of their chips (owing to its wide user base and open source nature) but for WP they only pick certain models in agreement with Microsoft. From what I know this chip will not be supported, but the upcoming quad core chip with an integrated modem will be, possibly in the next major update of WP.

    But keep in mind that the current dual core in WP8 is one of the best in the market, second only to the chip in nexus 4 (but probably more efficient). Also, WP will be adding support to other lower end dual cores to enable lower price points and this should come much sooner.

    I do expect and hope that Microsoft will start supporting Nvidia chips in WP since they already do in Windows RT which has a shared core, and this whould spice things up and provide more options and make things more competitive with Android.
  5. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by power5 View Post
    Coding for DC is not very different than coding for 8C. You tell the OS to utilize as many cores as available. I am not a programmer, but there is no way MS Word is coded for DC, then recoded for TC, then recoded for QC, then recoded for HC, then recoded for 8C. Its coded to simply utilize as many cores as possible for certain tasks. The major tasks are handled with priority. At least that is how I envision it. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Hey power5. I am a software developer. I've developed software for very large systems with thousands of cores. Your hunch in regard to how software runs on multiple cores sounds reasonable, but it is very wrong. I described how this works (semi-detailed) in my very first post in this forum. Hope you find it useful.
  6. alzaeem's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    10 Posts
    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Hey power5. I am a software developer. I've developed software for very large systems with thousands of cores. Your hunch in regard to how software runs on multiple cores sounds reasonable, but it is very wrong. I described how this works (semi-detailed) in my very first post in this forum. Hope you find it useful.
    I was ready to blast you for this quote, but then I decided to read up your post. Well you know your stuff, and you are absolutely right with what you say there. That being said Power5 is 100% correct: you don't need to rewrite your code for the number of cores, the OS abstracts that and manages the cores as needed by all the tasks happiening in the system. Of course you knew that already but probably mis-understood.

    and I just want to add that it's funny that most laptops sold use dual core CPU's (hyper threading doesn't really count), and that's fine for majority of users running complex PC/Mac/Linux applications which are much more optimized for multiple cores. The only time you are limited is if you are doing crazy multi-tasking.
  7. #32  
    Hey alzaeem, possibly I still misunderstand you then. I've worked in large teems and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get software to scale well across multiple cores. I don't think anybody would pay that kind of money for something that works 'automatically'. This often involves a deliberate effort (depends on the software in question). Like I said in that post, software that uses two threads isn't always easily restructured to make good use of more, and if that isn't achieved, you can throw as many cores at it as you want.... it will never use more than two cores.
  8. PG2G's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    453 Posts
    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    Hey alzaeem, possibly I still misunderstand you then. I've worked in large teems and been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get software to scale well across multiple cores. I don't think anybody would pay that kind of money for something that works 'automatically'. This often involves a deliberate effort (depends on the software in question). Like I said in that post, software that uses two threads isn't always easily restructured to make good use of more, and if that isn't achieved, you can throw as many cores at it as you want.... it will never use more than two cores.
    I think power was saying that software is coded to make use of the max number of cores that it can and the OS will take care of the rest.

    I'd say that is semi-accurate. Everything in software design and development has trade offs. Doing the above can drastically increase code complexity, which in turn can result in more software defects. Then you also have the fact that context switching and thread synchronization can have negative effects on performance (I'm sure its negligible on today's desktop chips, not sure about ARM)
  9. lhunter1130's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    27 Posts
    #34  
    ill end this discussion right now.. dual cores is what wp8 is designed for, it is optimized to run better than 4 cores with just 2 much as the wp7 was better than 99% of dual cores with just 1 core.. last but most important is PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT BATTERY LIFE.. AND UNTIL THEY CHANGE THE BATTERY TECH IN PHONES ALL A 4 CORE WILL DO IS DRAIN YOUR BATT 2X AS FAST. WHAT DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS??? MORE CORES= MORE POWER CONSUMPTION, WHEN THE BATTERY IS IN MY POCKET can only be so big or hot lol.. My laptop is 3 years old and is dual core i can open 15 web pages at a time most with videos on them and its just fine.. so your wanting a 4x core which is at almost the top of normal(note i said normal/average) PC tech in your phone??? get off your high horse and just CALL someone with it. I love tech but *****ing about something like this is retarded.
    Thanked by:
    Shadai 
    zolgi likes this.
  10. #35  
    I'd rather have dual-core support, but with little power consumption, lower cost and better execution. This is what Windows Phone 8 hardware has shown thus far. We argued Windows Phone doesn't require dual-core, yet we've got it. That's enough to power the system and provide the consumer more than a silky smooth experience. Could we improve the chips that are used? Sure, and I'm sure future handsets will make use of new innovations and improvements at the component manufacturer. I'd rather see optimisations made in execution and power management, rather than bundling more cores into the equation.

    We'll have to see how the OS matures to determine whether quad-core is required. Considering we've yet to have issues with single-core chips (prior to WP8), I doubt we'd be looking to add the extra two anytime soon.

    Richard Edmonds
    UK Editor - Windows Phone Central
    Newsroom UK Shift Manager - Mobile Nations

    Email: rich@mobilenations.com
    Twitter: @RichEdmonds
    Socl: RichEdmonds
    Thanked by:
    a5cent and lhunter1130 like this.
  11. dharmababa's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    67 Posts
    #36  
    Keep in mind these are just the first wave of WP8 devices.

    The S4 Pro is just an evolution of the S4. I wouldn't be surprised to see quad core WP8's announced early next year. Remember the HTC Zenith rumors?

    Definitely debatable if its needed, but it doesn't hurt to be competitive on specs with Android for those who care about that sort of thing.
  12. gwydionjhr's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    234 Posts
    Global Posts
    236 Global Posts
    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmababa View Post
    Keep in mind these are just the first wave of WP8 devices.

    The S4 Pro is just an evolution of the S4. I wouldn't be surprised to see quad core WP8's announced early next year. Remember the HTC Zenith rumors?

    Definitely debatable if its needed, but it doesn't hurt to be competitive on specs with Android for those who care about that sort of thing.
    The S4 Pro is just an evolution of the S4. I wouldn't be surprised to see quad core WP8's announced early next year. Remember the HTC Zenith rumors?
    CES is in January, yes?

    I suspect the Nokia Juggernaut and HTC Zenith would roll out at an event like that. As many phones as they're rolling out for the launch, they still have to keep attention on the platform into 2013.
    Regards,
    Joel Rushworth
    Victoria, B.C.

    Nokia 6188 - AudioVox PPC6600 - HTC 8125 - Lg eXpo GW820 - Lumia 710 - Lumia 920 - Lumia 1020
  13. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by PG2G View Post
    I think power was saying that software is coded to make use of the max number of cores that it can and the OS will take care of the rest.

    I'd say that is semi-accurate. Everything in software design and development has trade offs. Doing the above can drastically increase code complexity, which in turn can result in more software defects. Then you also have the fact that context switching and thread synchronization can have negative effects on performance (I'm sure its negligible on today's desktop chips, not sure about ARM)
    If that is what power5 and alzaeem meant to say, than yes, absolutely agree.

    I would also agree it is semi-accurate, although it is far less accurate in the smartphone-app-business than elsewhere.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-03-2012 at 11:01 PM.
  14. Shadai's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    24 Posts
    Global Posts
    26 Global Posts
    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by lhunter1130 View Post
    ill end this discussion right now.. dual cores is what wp8 is designed for, it is optimized to run better than 4 cores with just 2 much as the wp7 was better than 99% of dual cores with just 1 core.. last but most important is PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT BATTERY LIFE.. AND UNTIL THEY CHANGE THE BATTERY TECH IN PHONES ALL A 4 CORE WILL DO IS DRAIN YOUR BATT 2X AS FAST. WHAT DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS??? MORE CORES= MORE POWER CONSUMPTION, WHEN THE BATTERY IS IN MY POCKET can only be so big or hot lol.. My laptop is 3 years old and is dual core i can open 15 web pages at a time most with videos on them and its just fine.. so your wanting a 4x core which is at almost the top of normal(note i said normal/average) PC tech in your phone??? get off your high horse and just CALL someone with it. I love tech but *****ing about something like this is retarded.

    +1

    As much as I would like the extra power since I like to think of myself as a power user......

    This right here is exactly why I would rather have the dual core over quad. All the power in the world is awesome except when the following apply:

    1. Apps aren't optimized for that power meaning it is essentially wasted.

    2. I'd rather get a full day of moderate to heavy use out of my phone rather then have to charge my phone 2 or 3 times a day.

    TL;DR dual core is just more efficient both for use and power length
  15. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    241 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,097 Global Posts
    #40  
    I'd like to write in a fill in poll option by saying most OEMs just haven't prioritized their limited supply of quad core chips for Windows Phones.

    Those S4 Pro chips are scarce and, right now, only LG and Meizu have released devices with them. Other OEMs will use the chips for Android devices first since they are better sellers.

    On the bright side, you should be happy to know that early benchmarks are out and the Lumia 920 is faster than both iPhone and Android on Sunspider. (Against Android, Lumia wins by a wide margin even pitted up against the next gen quad core S4 Pro.)

    By Engadget's numbers:
    914 ms on Lumia 920 vs 1,975 on Nexus 4 vs 1,283 on Optimus G (lower scores are better)

    So you really have nothing to worry about. Dual core Windows Phone is currently faster than Android by quite a bit if you're a power user and that's what you worry about.
    Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 11-03-2012 at 07:22 PM.
  16. power5's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,208 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,590 Global Posts
    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Yes... and performance, data speeds and battery life SUCKED as a result.
    And those users who wanted the max performance of their data turned the LTE on when needed, and off when not needed. They still had the most powerful CPU for all tasks.

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    If that is what power5 and alzaeem meant to say, than yes, absolutely agree.
    I assumed that if software is coded for a certain number of cores, its obviously not capable of adapting to more cores. I had assumed that all software in the modern age was coded to utilize as much hardware that is available. At least in the consumer market. Specialized thousand core systems may have software written to utilize a certain number of cores for each task that needs to be done to better balance the load on the entire system.

    Again, I am just using common sense to try and understand, but according to a5cent, it may just not work that way in real life. While I can accept that, I still don't like it. :happy:
  17. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by power5 View Post
    Again, I am just using common sense to try and understand, but according to a5cent, it may just not work that way in real life. While I can accept that, I still don't like it. :happy:
    Hey Power5, there is no shame in that false assumption. What you assumed really is the way it should be, but alas it isn't, and believe me, most software developers aren't happy about it either. It's just the way computing technology works. Like I said in this thread, researchers have been hacking away at this problem for 20 years, and although progress has been made, we are still nowhere near software automatically exploiting an arbitrary hardware configuration to its fullest (that statement applies to far more than just the general purpose computing cores). Exploiting hardware to its fullest is only possible, if software engineers have the luxury of targeting exactly one precisely defined hardware configuration. It's one of the reasons why current generation console games still look relatively modern, despite the hardware being almost a decade old (the performance characteristics of each and every component in every XBOX are well known and identical). It's also one of the reasons Android devices never seem to get as much out of high-end hardware as they should (because Google can make only few assumptions about the wide range of hardware their OS will end up running on).

    You don't have to take my word for it. Any software developer in the world (intermediate to advanced level) will tell you the exact same thing. PG2G is also a very knowledgeable guy and he would tell you no differently.

    One last thing you've got mixed up:

    Quote Originally Posted by power5 View Post
    Specialized thousand core systems may have software written to utilize a certain number of cores for each task that needs to be done to better balance the load on the entire system.
    It's often the exact other way around. If a "specialized" software application has 10'000 simultaneous users (e.g. a website), one can sometimes get away with ignoring the issue almost entirely, and still end up with a system that scales very well across an arbitrary number of CPU cores. You simply delegate each user request (such as composing and delivering a single web-page) to the CPU core which at that moment is least busy. It's consumer software where this almost never works that easily, and which rarely (actually never) takes full advantage of the hardware platform it's running on.
    Thanked by:
  18. Squachy's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    432 Posts
    #43  
    Quad cores from Qualcomm are only JUST coming out, and theres really only a few devices right now that have it: The Optimus G and the Nexus 4. Theres that HTC Butterfly thats only announced for China right now (basically an 5" HTC Note...). I think the Galaxy Note 2 might be using it but im not really sure.

    All other quads are either Exynos (Samsung) or Tegra3 based. And in many cases the Snapdragon S4's Krait cores in dual configuration.

    The HTC One X+ is going Quad, but i think its using the Tegra3 processor at 1.7ghz.

    The Next Galaxy S4 is rumored to have the next gen Exynos processor (quad core) and probably wont make any kind of appearance until later in Q1 2013. Tegra4 is also a next year part so you wont see that either.

    there is absolutey no need for quad cores, especialy on a phone. Just like how 1080p resolution is not going to make any kind of difference for the screen because of how small a smartphone screen is. Quad cores on a big destkop/laptop computer is already still being underutilized by everything except the absolute newest games (and thats even stretching it.....) and/or some really hardcore worksation computers (but those costs retarded amounts of money and raw power is key for those)

    The whole core situation for Windows was based on the fact that the windows CE core in WP7 did not support multicore. They needed excuses to say why only single core was good enough even though the rest of the world was on dual cores already.

    Quads are probably on their way, but to get something out NOW they needed the more abundant Snapdragon S4 pro duals. There IS a rumor that HTC is going to bring out a windows phone based on the hardware on that HTC J Butterfly (who the **** named that thing?? lol) monster.
  19. brmiller1976's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    2,092 Posts
    Global Posts
    2,578 Global Posts
    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by power5 View Post
    And those users who wanted the max performance of their data turned the LTE on when needed, and off when not needed. They still had the most powerful CPU for all tasks.
    And that is an awful requirement. Reminds me of the original Sprint EVO, which would run out of juice in two hours if you kept the wiMax radio on.

    WP would not be helped by such an approach. The lion's share of reviews would say "lousy battery life and poor performance out of the box."
  20. #45  
    Other than apps not being optimized for too many cores, I speculate that there's another reason: the wait for A15 designs to be out.

    MS has been late playing the specs war game with Android. Instead of focusing on catching up on A9 designs or its derivatives, they could take advantage of A15's capability in big.LITTLE configurations and finally catching up.

    Of course, I could be wildly mistaken and maybe MS will only show off quad core when the hype goes to big.LITTLE...but I think MS is getting smarter. After all, they did say they are making the 64 bit variant of the next desktop OS in ARM.
  21. power5's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,208 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,590 Global Posts
    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    And that is an awful requirement. Reminds me of the original Sprint EVO, which would run out of juice in two hours if you kept the wiMax radio on.

    WP would not be helped by such an approach. The lion's share of reviews would say "lousy battery life and poor performance out of the box."
    Yeah and that has stopped all the different platforms from pushing out new features and devices. Lets take a quick journey. ip4, had to get a bumper given out for free by apple because holding it normal was the "wrong" way. Apple did not get wiped out of the market. ip4s, battery issues were very prevalent. Many users complained. Apple issued a new OS update to help with the issues. Apple again did not get wiped out of the market. ip5 and the maps debacle. Apple told users if they wanted usable maps, they could download working apps from the app store like google maps. Again, apple did not get wiped out of the market.

    Android is easy. New OS update from 2-2.1 blah blah blah, caused lag. Solution was to update OS again and fix some of the lag. LTE pioneered in android handsets and those become the fastest at browsing the web. However, early LTE radios sucked power very fast. Solution was to turn off LTE radio unless using web. Very easy on android, simple place a quick switch settings icon, or whatever they are called, on start screen. Result is that Android has become the global leader in mobile OS with the biggest app store.

    However, if MS pushed out QC before they had integrated low power LTE radios the outcome would be immediate collapse of the entire MS empire. :dry I guess its possible.
  22. AngryNil's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,383 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,387 Global Posts
    #47  
    Quad, particularly next-gen quad such as the S4 Pro, next Exynos and any A15-based designs will be helpful to drive the 1080p resolutions. People forget that you need processing power to push out those extra pixels.

    Based on that, the 820 and 8S should theoretically perform much better than the HD devices.
  23. power5's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    1,208 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,590 Global Posts
    #48  
    They will. No way they wont. In games you will see significantly better performance with the low res screens than the 720P screens. Unless the game is changing the resolution on the device which I do not even know if that is possible in the API.
  24. Mahesha999's Avatar
    Member

    Posts
    52 Posts
    Global Posts
    53 Global Posts
       #49  
    Benchmarks, yes Lumia 920 is ought to win in SunSpider as it has IE10. IE10 wins even over latest Chrome 22 run on Windows 8. But sure it looses in other benchmarks say V8.

    But I am not strictly talking about apps optimized for quad cores.

    Let me summarize
    1. As I am developer working in MS tech, I believe very clearly that soon there will be really-smarter app. You should say next-gen apps that are considerably advanced over the traditional Android & iPhone apps. And yeah apps does not need to explicitly coded for extra cores.

    2. But still its all mainly related to multitasking, because ...

    3. It should shape as productivity device like Windows8 but in mobile form factor. I honestly feel switching between apps should be quicker. Long pressing back button takes time.

    4. Lament because there are no such quad core Windows Phone 8 device & yes will see them in future for sure.
  25. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    Quad, particularly next-gen quad such as the S4 Pro, next Exynos and any A15-based designs will be helpful to drive the 1080p resolutions. People forget that you need processing power to push out those extra pixels.
    Pushing out those extra pixels on 1080p displays is something only the GPU is concerned with, so you are absolutely correct that the quad-core S4 Pro would be most welcome in that regard, but only due to its much more powerful GPU. In comparison to the GPU, those two extra CPU cores are practically worthless for this purpose. Whether or not a CPU design is A15 based is also irrelevant, as that only refers to the CPU architecture which is barely involved in pixel pushing.
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    Based on that, the 820 and 8S should theoretically perform much better than the HD devices.
    Quote Originally Posted by power5 View Post
    They will. No way they wont. In games you will see significantly better performance with the low res screens than the 720P screens. Unless the game is changing the resolution on the device which I do not even know if that is possible in the API.
    You were both quite smart in how you worded those statements, using the words "theoretically" and "unless" ;)

    In fact, Power5 got it exactly right, as it just so happens that "changing the resolution" is exactly what most games do (more relevant for fast 3D games like hydro-thunder than a simple tic-tac-toe game).

    Of course, the resolution of a device's display never actually changes. Instead, games simply render their content at much lower resolutions. Virtually all fast-paced/highly animated/3D games render their frames at half WVGA resolutions (i.e. 400x240 pixels). On WP7 games often used even lower resolutions, but I don't expect games to go any lower on WP8. Up-scaling to the devices physical display resolution is done by a hardware scaler, and is therefore computationally "free of charge".

    Thanks to this functionality, game developers can choose to lower rendering resolution in exchange for higher frame rates and vice verse, which gives them more flexibility to tune their graphics engines. This also allows developers to target a single resolution, independent of the varying physical display resolutions that may exist, and that is exactly what developers are doing.

    Because every high-performance game will determine its own sub-WVGA rendering resolution, which is likely to be very similar (if not identical) across all handsets, it is safe to expect games to perform almost identically, independent of varying physical display resolution. That includes WVGA devices like the 820 and the 8S. This ensures all customers get identical frame rates and a consistently good gaming experience across all devices. I think that is a pretty awesome feature.

    I couldn't find anything simple to back this up with, but Microsoft has documented the feature in the WP7 and WP8 SDK (see DXGI_SWAP_CHAIN_DESC1.Scaling)
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-11-2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Added last paragraph
    AngryNil likes this.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions