Windows 10 Has Gone Too Far

[Motor_Mouth]

In their efforts to appease the Luddites, Microsoft has made far more changes than was necessary, mostly at the expense of those who use touch-enabled devices. I am finding W10 all but unusable on my 10" Yoga 2 tablet. Yes, I know it's in beta but I'm not talking about that stuff, I am talking about the fundamental experience of "Tablet Mode" on a tablet. If you look at what everyone disliked about W8, it is relatively easy to come up with a few much simpler changes to keep everyone happy.

So, what are those issues? It's pretty straightforward, really. They don't like the full-screen Start Menu or the Live Tiles that go on it. They don't like being flung from the Desktop into the Modern UI by default file associations. They don't like hot corners, either. So if all those things ceased to be issues for desktop users, everyone could be happy without too much effort. What's quite disturbing is that Microsoft really haven't addressed all these issues, yet they have changed things that worked perfectly well before. The result of all this effort so far is a desktop experience that is largely the same as W8 but a touch experience that is barely functional. Here is what I think they should do.

1. W8.1 features. Keep some - hot corners optional, return to last app when you close an app, etc. - but get rid of the pop-up title bars and taskbar from the Modern UI, they just get in the way.

2. Start Menu/Screen. This is where Microsoft seem to have gone berserk. Nobody asked for all the useless dross from the Win7 Start Menu back, so get rid of it, please. Having the option for a non-full-screen menu makes sense and should stay and some options are handy, like Power, but we don't need an explorer button when there is one on the Taskbar. Get rid of all the Live Tiles. By default, have small tiles for installed apps and change the right-click menu so that medium and large tile entries have a "(Live Tile)" written after the size.

3. Touch. Leave it alone! We don't want or need a "tablet mode" or Continuum. They make the touch experience awful. Just give us a few options to set up the way we want to work. e.g. Instead of a million options for this or that, all you need to offer is "Optimise for Desktop" or "Optimise for Touch". If you choose the former, you get the new, changed stuff. If you choose the latter, you get what we have now in W8, with the changes I mentioned above. Also get rid of the hot corners but keep the swipe gestures.

Here are a few mock-ups I've made to show you what I mean.


This would be the basic Desktop Start Menu. To keep things consistent, all options would be shown in small tiles and those in grey would be persistent (always there). "Pin to Start" would put small tiles in the top area. (I would have manually resized some tiles in this example.)


This would be what you get when you click on All Apps. This would not be persistent.


This would be what you get when you click on Live Tiles. This would be persistent. (It would be there next time you opened the menu.)

And below are a few variations on how it could look for touchscreen work, if they put some of the options from W10 Mobile into it. Note that the grey tiles used for common functions remain in the same spot as on the Desktop and the Taskbar is double width to make the touch targets more finger friendly. Optionally, it could be done away with altogether, I reckon. I certainly don't need it and it just adds clutter.






Constructive discussion would be most welcome!

 

[Sunstorming]

A well done post good sir. Problem is I really like Windows 10 much more than 8 as far as work goes. Here's why: EVERYONE I have spoken to hates the start screen and wants their damn start menu back, even several years later. Just how it is and Microsoft is bridging the gap according to a lot of feedback at the very least.

 

[hiya15]

Nice, thanks for the screenshots !!!

 

[Zachary Boddy]

I like a few of your ideas, but altogether I honestly prefer what Microsoft has now.
I don't necessarily like Windows 8.1. I've grown used to it, and I'm okay with it, but I don't really enjoy using it. It's UI isn't cohesive enough, the desktop experience only gives you partial control over the system (compared to Windows 7), and the Start Screen is awful for anything except for touch devices. Some basic features, shortcuts, or actions that I expect and want just don't exist (a continuation of the 'partial desktop control'). Windows 8.1 wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. It was a collection of ideas Microsoft wasn't sure about. It was an attempt to leap into the future, but forgot about the present. Windows 10 changes a lot of these issues, and shows that Microsoft is willing to listen to feedback.
Now, people using an OS built to be used on desktop and laptop PC's are getting the desktop experience they expect. The intuitiveness of the Start Menu is back, along with all the control and fluidity it provided in Windows 7. Those basic features have been returned, and instead of trying to put a tablet OS on all devices whether they're touch or not, Microsoft has built an OS (using user feedback) that works on all devices, because it gives mouse and keyboard functionality without forgetting the imminence of touch devices. They didn't completely get rid of the Start Screen, just dialed down its importance to anyone but a touch-focused user.
But not only does Windows 10 bring touch and non-touch devices as close as possible (Windows 7 was all mouse and keyboard while Windows 8 was pretty much all touch...or felt like it), it brings a UI design and cohesion never seen before across a wider range of devices than any other OS can handle. I don't think Windows 10 is perfect, but the compromise is worth it when you consider what it brings to the table, or rather every device in our house. It's the best OS out there for what it does, hands down, even if it's not the best in every single way.
Even if I don't completely agree with your ideas, I enjoyed reading about them. I liked a couple of your design decisions. Thank you for taking the time to do this. And--if you've read this far--thanks for listening to my feedback.

 

[Jorge Holguin]

I love your background .... But very good post

 

[Motor_Mouth]

EVERYONE I have spoken to hates the start screen and wants their damn start menu back, even several years later. Just how it is and Microsoft is bridging the gap according to a lot of feedback at the very least.

I think if people don't like the W8 Start Screen, and clearly many don't (although I get the strong impression most of those people have not even tried it), then the simplest way to deal with it is to educate them, because the reality is that it is more functional, more customisable and much easier to work with. If people aren't seeing that, the solution is not to go back to something that doesn't work as well, it is to make people see how much better it is now. After all, the whole reason Microsoft made the Start Screen was that their user data showed that use of the Start Menu in W7 had declined to 40% overall, from how much it was used in XP, and to as little as 18% for some tasks. By any measure, that points to something that was not working for the majority of users and needed to be changed/fixed.

OK, they have kept most of what makes the W8 Start Menu superior, even if it has been partially diluted. The problem is they have added in features to mimic Vista, that do not add even the tiniest bit of functionality, but which break the tablet experience quite badly. It is a trade-off that benefits no-one but leaves a lot of previously happy users worse off. If there was even the tiniest benefit, I could live with it but no-one can say "now I can do this thing in Windows 10 that I couldn't do in Windows 8" so tablet users are being screwed over for zero benefit to anyone.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

I think if people don't like the W8 Start Screen, and clearly many don't (although I get the strong impression most of those people have not even tried it), then the simplest way to deal with it is to educate them, because the reality is that it is more functional, more customisable and much easier to work with. If people aren't seeing that, the solution is not to go back to something that doesn't work as well, it is to make people see how much better it is now. After all, the whole reason Microsoft made the Start Screen was that their user data showed that use of the Start Menu in W7 had declined to 40% overall, from how much it was used in XP, and to as little as 18% for some tasks. By any measure, that points to something that was not working for the majority of users and needed to be changed/fixed.

OK, they have kept most of what makes the W8 Start Menu superior, even if it has been partially diluted. The problem is they have added in features to mimic Vista, that do not add even the tiniest bit of functionality, but which break the tablet experience quite badly. It is a trade-off that benefits no-one but leaves a lot of previously happy users worse off. If there was even the tiniest benefit, I could live with it but no-one can say "now I can do this thing in Windows 10 that I couldn't do in Windows 8" so tablet users are being screwed over for zero benefit to anyone.

It's all a matter of opinion, of course. Just like everything I've said has been opinion. I've used Windows 8 and 8.1 since it was created, and although the Start Screen works for touch screen devices, it's horrid for anything else. The desktop experience has been compromised severely because of Microsoft's attempt to jump into what they believed people would want and/or need in the future. There's so many good ideas in Windows 8, but they weren't implemented correctly at first. Windows 10 is Microsoft's attempt to rectify the mistakes they made in Windows 8. If you're going to bring in statistics, remember that no matter which way you look at it, Windows 8 and 8.1 is Microsoft's worst received OS, and after two years it only just now has passed XP.
Maybe Windows 10 could be improved further upon, but it's not like the RTM release is going to be set in stone. Microsoft has already elaborated on the revolution of Windows 10, and how updates will be handled. Windows 10 will change constantly, according to user feedback. I like quite a lot of your ideas, but not really your reasons behind it.

 

[Motor_Mouth]

I like a few of your ideas, but altogether I honestly prefer what Microsoft has now.
I don't necessarily like Windows 8.1. I've grown used to it, and I'm okay with it, but I don't really enjoy using it. It's UI isn't cohesive enough, the desktop experience only gives you partial control over the system (compared to Windows 7), and the Start Screen is awful for anything except for touch devices. Some basic features, shortcuts, or actions that I expect and want just don't exist (a continuation of the 'partial desktop control'). Windows 8.1 wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. It was a collection of ideas Microsoft wasn't sure about. It was an attempt to leap into the future, but forgot about the present. Windows 10 changes a lot of these issues, and shows that Microsoft is willing to listen to feedback.
Now, people using an OS built to be used on desktop and laptop PC's are getting the desktop experience they expect. The intuitiveness of the Start Menu is back, along with all the control and fluidity it provided in Windows 7.

Can you please expand on this? Because for me, the worst thing about Windows 7, the reason I stayed on XP until 2010 and jumped onto Win8 at the first public preview, was how bad the Vista Start Menu was and how much it impacted my workflow.

Those basic features have been returned

No they haven't. This is just the W8 Start Screen, repackaged in a far less useful way, with one of the less useful features from the XP Start Menu chucked in for good measure. It is completely obvious to anyone who looks at it that the developers are flying blind - they know every one hates the W8 Start Screen but they have no idea why and, therefore, no idea how to fix it. So they are just randomly throwing things in to see what works. At this point, the only thing I can see that actually works is the non-full-screen option. Everything else is just bringing back issues that had previously been resolved, like finding things in All Programs/All Apps, and adding visual clutter for no real benefit.

instead of trying to put a tablet OS on all devices whether they're touch or not, Microsoft has built an OS (using user feedback) that works on all devices, because it gives mouse and keyboard functionality without forgetting the imminence of touch devices.

First of all, that is not what they have done. My almost new Yoga 2 tablet is all but unusable as a tablet. Touch targets are way too small and are packed too close together and Tablet Mode opens desktop software full-screen for no reason and no benefit to anyone. Trust me, nobody needs Notepad full screen and there is no advantage in opening a dialog box full-screen if all the contents of the window are still stuffed into the same small area and 90% of the screen is blank.

Secondly, exactly how has the keyboard/mouse experience changed at all between W7, 8 and 10? Everything I have experienced has been identical between them. In fact, W8 works much better with a scroll-wheel mouse and all the new hot key combos than it does with touch and there is not one, single thing that is harder to do with a mouse/keyboard in W8 than in any other version of Windows. Maybe it is a matter of perception but the reality is that W8 is great with a mouse/keyboard.

They didn't completely get rid of the Start Screen, just dialed down its importance to anyone but a touch-focused user.

Really? Care to explain to me how scrolling through a single column of icons in All Apps to find something is easier for anyone than being able to see all of them on one or two screens? It is worse for mouse/keyboard users and all but completely unusable for touchscreen users.

it brings a UI design and cohesion never seen before across a wider range of devices than any other OS can handle.

You could not be more wrong. Where is the cohesion between the wireframe icons in Settings and the full colour icons in Control Panel? Where is the cohesion between the Wi-Fi options in Action Centre and the Windows 95 style Network Settings dialog? And look at this - three different styles of icons all in one place.

I don't think Windows 10 is perfect, but the compromise is worth it when you consider what it brings to the table, or rather every device in our house.

But it doesn't. You can't download one ISO and install it on your PCs, X-Box and phone. They are all based on the same NT kernel but it's not one OS for every device. Not even close because I will still need a 32 bit version for my tablet and a 64 bit version for my laptop. Then I'll need Windows 10 Mobile for my phone and X-Box owners will have a different version of the OS again.

The Universal Windows Platform is NOT Windows 10, it is a different project that will certainly make Windows 10 more attractive for some, although I think the ****house tablet experience will put a lot of developers off bothering to make apps for it.

 

[fatclue_98]

The fact remains there are way too many mouse and keyboard users that depend on a more traditional Windows set up. Enterprise customers stayed away from 8/8.1 in droves due to the "touch-optimized" UI of Metro. There's too much riding on 10 to disenfranchise the core customer - business. Continuum is squarely aimed at this base and I'm sure Microsoft has received plenty of feedback from this sector. Obviously, we're not privy to these comments because we're lowly "enthusiasts" and not exactly the cash cow that big industry is.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

Can you please expand on this? Because for me, the worst thing about Windows 7, the reason I stayed on XP until 2010 and jumped onto Win8 at the first public preview, was how bad the Vista Start Menu was and how much it impacted my workflow.

No they haven't. This is just the W8 Start Screen, repackaged in a far less useful way, with one of the less useful features from the XP Start Menu chucked in for good measure. It is completely obvious to anyone who looks at it that the developers are flying blind - they know every one hates the W8 Start Screen but they have no idea why and, therefore, no idea how to fix it. So they are just randomly throwing things in to see what works. At this point, the only thing I can see that actually works is the non-full-screen option. Everything else is just bringing back issues that had previously been resolved, like finding things in All Programs/All Apps, and adding visual clutter for no real benefit.

First of all, that is not what they have done. My almost new Yoga 2 tablet is all but unusable as a tablet. Touch targets are way too small and are packed too close together and Tablet Mode opens desktop software full-screen for no reason and no benefit to anyone. Trust me, nobody needs Notepad full screen and there is no advantage in opening a dialog box full-screen if all the contents of the window are still stuffed into the same small area and 90% of the screen is blank.

Secondly, exactly how has the keyboard/mouse experience changed at all between W7, 8 and 10? Everything I have experienced has been identical between them. In fact, W8 works much better with a scroll-wheel mouse and all the new hot key combos than it does with touch and there is not one, single thing that is harder to do with a mouse/keyboard in W8 than in any other version of Windows. Maybe it is a matter of perception but the reality is that W8 is great with a mouse/keyboard.

Really? Care to explain to me how scrolling through a single column of icons in All Apps to find something is easier for anyone than being able to see all of them on one or two screens? It is worse for mouse/keyboard users and all but completely unusable for touchscreen users.

You could not be more wrong. Where is the cohesion between the wireframe icons in Settings and the full colour icons in Control Panel? Where is the cohesion between the Wi-Fi options in Action Centre and the Windows 95 style Network Settings dialog? And look at this - three different styles of icons all in one place.

(Sorry, this image will have to wait until I get home because Edge can't handle an image upload.)

But it doesn't. You can't download one ISO and install it on your PCs, X-Box and phone. They are all based on the same NT kernel but it's not one OS for every device. Not even close because I will still need a 32 bit version for my tablet and a 64 bit version for my laptop. Then I'll need Windows 10 Mobile for my phone and X-Box owners will have a different version of the OS again.

The Universal Windows Platform is NOT Windows 10, it is a different project that will certainly make Windows 10 more attractive for some, although I think the ****house tablet experience will put a lot of developers off bothering to make apps for it.

You say these things as if they're facts, indisputable and undeniably correct, regardless of the thoughts of others. I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree with your logic. In my opinion (emphasis on 'my'), Windows 8 is far inferior to Windows 7 (and in extension XP) when using a mouse and keyboard. It's far from useless, as I predominantly use a mouse and keyboard, but I still prefer Windows 7's intuitiveness.
But what I really don't understand is how you claimed the "developers are flying blind" when this OS was built on user feedback. Microsoft has too much riding on the success of Windows 10 and their universal plan to experiment blindly and throw out another Windows 8 without testing it first. That's why the Insider Preview exists, and why four million users are currently running a beta version of Windows 10 and providing feedback on their opinions on usability and design. Microsoft has changed a lot of design decisions and added a lot of little details to improve fluidity, all on the basis of user feedback. From what I've seen, people prefer the Start Menu to the Start Screen. And this has come from both amateur users and more professional, experienced users of the OS.
I'm no expert, but I can follow logic, and from where I'm standing yours doesn't quite add up. Honestly, mostly because you claim what you say is fact (even if you don't say that outright).

 

[Zachary Boddy]

The fact remains there are way too many mouse and keyboard users that depend on a more traditional Windows set up. Enterprise customers stayed away from 8/8.1 in droves due to the "touch-optimized" UI of Metro. There's too much riding on 10 to disenfranchise the core customer - business. Continuum is squarely aimed at this base and I'm sure Microsoft has received plenty of feedback from this sector. Obviously, we're not privy to these comments because we're lowly "enthusiasts" and not exactly the cash cow that big industry is.

Well said.

 

[Kram Sacul]

 

[SonOfDad]

Yes they should have just created alternate options to 'swipe from edge' for those not using touch screens and brought back a very Windows 7 like start menu, much like Start8 from Stardock. While I think I could adapt to Windows 10 on desktop no way is it landing on my Surface Pro 3!

 

[DavidinCT]

...Because for me, the worst thing about Windows 7, the reason I stayed on XP until 2010 and jumped onto Win8 at the first public preview, was how bad the Vista Start Menu was and how much it impacted my workflow.

See this is the problem with you. This is clearly your thoughts. You don't like Windows 7 because you could not be productive with you. On a global scale, you ARE one of the oddballs. Windows 7 is still the best and most popular OS in the WORLD. 90% of the people find Windows 7 useable and can be productive with it. There is a reason why Windows 7 has about 55-57% of the GLOBAL market share and Windows 8.1 is struggling to catch up to what Windows XP still is (around 10-14%). Anyway you look at it, these ARE the facts NOT someone's thoughts on it.

So, XP's extending start menu, where things open up as you select them(like in past OS's going from my fav Windows 95) ? When it comes down to day to day use of Windows, that was the big thing that was removed starting in Vista, and 7 ? Is that what your putting up such a fuss for ?

So, yea, I agree with you on that (one of the few things), I do miss the popping out menus of XP and before. Although out of all the OS's that has come from 7 (including your 8.1), the only big advancement that I find useful is in Windows 10 believe it or not. In the last build they added a feature that is on Windows phone, when you get a lot of apps to click a letter and it brings you to the apps starting by that letter, This is SO MUCH faster to get to an app than ANYTHING (unless you pin it to the start) I have seen in windows yet. And if it was not pinned to the start menu in 8.1, I found it WORSE to find an app manually than any other Windows OS.

Although it's known that I dislike Windows 8/8.1 it's tablet/touch screen is very usable compared to my beloved Windows 7 (and I did love XP but, gave up when modern apps and games didn't support the newest Directx and hardware), that is something that works pretty well on a touch screen. Windows 10 has a ways to go to fit what Windows 8.1 did on a touch screen.

I still really LOL at the fact that it will be hitting the market on July 29th, it needs way too much work on some parts of it to be ready in little over a month and 1/2. The only thing I am really going to be afraid of, is when I install it on release day there will be 165 updates on it (AKA bug fixes).

Microsoft is gearing up to make Windows 10 be Vista Take 2 (Rushed out the door and was not ready go to, nor drivers). And this will be the last OS ? LOL !!!!

I am STILL pissed off about Windows Media Center....but, leave that for another discussion.

 

[anon(9308532)]

A friendly reminder that this is still Beta and they're now in the process of cleaning up the UI. Hopefully they'd have stumbled upon this forum and take some of these suggestions before the end of July.

I like the progress they're making, but I hope they bring some features back from 8.1 like the charms bar. I will say I'm loving the new wireframe logos. Shame I'm the only one though.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

Yes they should have just created alternate options to 'swipe from edge' for those not using touch screens and brought back a very Windows 7 like start menu, much like Start8 from Stardock. While I think I could adapt to Windows 10 on desktop no way is it landing on my Surface Pro 3!

See this is the problem with you. This is clearly your thoughts. You don't like Windows 7 because you could not be productive with you. On a global scale, you ARE one of the oddballs. Windows 7 is still the best and most popular OS in the WORLD. 90% of the people find Windows 7 useable and can be productive with it. There is a reason why Windows 7 has about 55-57% of the GLOBAL market share and Windows 8.1 is struggling to catch up to what Windows XP still is (around 10-14%). Anyway you look at it, these ARE the facts NOT someone's thoughts on it.

So, XP's extending start menu, where things open up as you select them(like in past OS's going from my fav Windows 95) ? When it comes down to day to day use of Windows, that was the big thing that was removed starting in Vista, and 7 ? Is that what your putting up such a fuss for ?

So, yea, I agree with you on that (one of the few things), I do miss the popping out menus of XP and before. Although out of all the OS's that has come from 7 (including your 8.1), the only big advancement that I find useful is in Windows 10 believe it or not. In the last build they added a feature that is on Windows phone, when you get a lot of apps to click a letter and it brings you to the apps starting by that letter, This is SO MUCH faster to get to an app than ANYTHING (unless you pin it to the start) I have seen in windows yet. And if it was not pinned to the start menu in 8.1, I found it WORSE to find an app manually than any other Windows OS.

Although it's known that I dislike Windows 8/8.1 it's tablet/touch screen is very usable compared to my beloved Windows 7 (and I did love XP but, gave up when modern apps and games didn't support the newest Directx and hardware), that is something that works pretty well on a touch screen. Windows 10 has a ways to go to fit what Windows 8.1 did on a touch screen.

I still really LOL at the fact that it will be hitting the market on July 29th, it needs way too much work on some parts of it to be ready in little over a month and 1/2. The only thing I am really going to be afraid of, is when I install it on release day there will be 165 updates on it (AKA bug fixes).

Microsoft is gearing up to make Windows 10 be Vista Take 2 (Rushed out the door and was not ready go to, nor drivers). And this will be the last OS ? LOL !!!!

I am STILL pissed off about Windows Media Center....but, leave that for another discussion.

I like what you've said.
And Windows 10 is the last Windows OS, but not the last iteration of Windows. Windows 10 will constantly evolve to add features and fix bugs. I think it'll be good upon release and will only get better.
Windows Media Center is a shame though. I love it, and will really miss it. I hope Microsoft brings it back.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

A friendly reminder that this is still Beta and they're now in the process of cleaning up the UI. Hopefully they'd have stumbled upon this forum and take some of these suggestions before the end of July.

I like the progress they're making, but I hope they bring some features back from 8.1 like the charms bar. I will say I'm loving the new wireframe logos. Shame I'm the only one though.

I agree, friend. I also like the wireframe logos.

 

[Motor_Mouth]

The fact remains there are way too many mouse and keyboard users that depend on a more traditional Windows set up.

Don't toss irrelevancies, the relevant fact is that those users can enjoy almost exactly the same "traditional Windows set up" on Windows 7, 8 or 10. Seriously, which version of Windows is this?

There's simply no way to tell if you can't see the graphics of the Taskbar, is there? That's because the Desktop offers exactly the same overall experience as it has since Windows NT 4.0. The graphics are different, some of the tools have evolved, e.g. Task Manager and Start, but nothing in Windows 8.1 works to the detriment of working on the desktop with a mouse and keyboard. Not. One. Single. Thing.

BTW, the Rainmeter theme you see is something Windows 7 forced me into spending over a hundred hours making. Since I moved to Win8, though, it has become largely redundant and I hardly ever touch it these days.

Enterprise customers stayed away from 8/8.1 in droves due to the "touch-optimized" UI of Metro.

Enterprise customers stay away from every new version of every OS. Until March this year, our Macs were still on Mountain Lion and all the PCs in the company were running XP until Xmas 2013. Given that we've only had W7 for 18 months, I imagine we will skip 8 and probably not see 10 for at least two years.

 

[SonOfDad]

A friendly reminder that this is still Beta and they're now in the process of cleaning up the UI. Hopefully they'd have stumbled upon this forum and take some of these suggestions before the end of July.

It's not "still beta" they are 50 days out from product release! If you're expecting any major changes at this point be ready for disappointment.

 

[fatclue_98]

Don't toss irrelevancies, the relevant fact is that those users can enjoy almost exactly the same "traditional Windows set up" on Windows 7, 8 or 10.

Nothing irrelevant about the vast majority of Windows users. Although Microsoft has gained some traction, the tablet world is dominated by the same folks who dominate the mobile world - Google and Apple. Microsoft will concede that market as well if they can make more money on services than on hardware.