MS WTH - Is this a Joke.

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
eBay, PayPal, various banks....the list goes on and on unfortunately.

Well I suppose the local banks make sense. Their support of apps is generally pretty terrible. Quite often their android apps are buggy or they cut support for popular android revisions.

And you don't need an app to get paypal or ebay, you can use a browser..... although with tablet users and desktop users using uwp apps, still kind of weird - people do A LOT more shopping on tablets and desktops than they do on phones, according to market surveys etc, particularly tablets and windows tablets are one of the very few growth sectors in tablets.

Also weird considering neither ebay nor paypal have a need to cut costs, they are both still experiencing growth, particularly ebay. Not sure I understand those decisions commercially.

More people coming to the windows store (evernote, kodi, facebook, Instagram, plenty of games etc etc) than leaving, but its nice to see some actual examples rather than the often generalised statements of "the windows store is "dying"). As someone who doesn't use ebay, but uses aliexpress, and never uses paypal because their fees are too costly, I would never have noticed (and whether you pay, or the seller, you get charged in the end anyway for the service).

If I didn't have those examples, having watched the store grow a lot over the last two years, I am not sure I'd have believed anyone was leaving. The more you know!]

Yeah banking apps does make sense. That's a mobile specific function of UWPs. Mobile marketshare globally is less than 1%. However in mature markets it can be as high as 5.8%, and has recently experienced growth. So it would depend on country as to whether the development was still worth it, understandable however. Mobile specific app functions are going to be low priority for anyone.
 
Last edited:

Scienceguy Labs

Active member
Jun 13, 2012
3,573
1
38
Visit site
I see what you're saying. The problem is that everyone here is a Windows fan, but we all have different user needs that, for the moment, can or can't be filled by W10M depending on who you are. On one side, you have people like me who use lots of apps because they are convenient and often times quick and efficient at getting things done. It doesn't mean that I spend all my time in Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat. It just means that I like having apps. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, if you bring up the lack of apps in these threads, you are immediately labeled as being a social media junkie and it's implied that you're opinion is somehow less than the opinions of people who don't need or care to use apps. These people say things like they are more business minded or do more productive work. On the flip side, whenever I see people defend W10M by saying that they don't use apps or that you can use the browser as an app replacement, I think that they are just grabbing at straws in defense of an OS that has clearly lost the consumer market. I'm just as guilty as the other person. My point is, no matter how we describe our experiences with Windows phones, the numbers don't lie at the moment. The entire population of us would barely fill a large city compared to the populations of Android and Apple users. All of us that are still here are letting that fact and the fact that our expectations have been severely let down by MS get to us. When people get frustrated and desperate they choose sides and become even more convinced that their opinion is the right one. The forum here, like the current state of political affairs in the world, is demonstrating this behavior all the time. Truth is, MS can't afford to listen to us. They have to base their decision on the trajectory of Android's app store. They have to be studying human behavior. Asking questions about why apps are so popular, are there any dislikes about Apps, what can possibly replace an app? And it can't be the browser. Browsing is a web term. The young people that I teach have no use for browsers outside of my classroom, and those kiddos are MS's primary target if they go after consumers. Besides, apps always were convenient replacements for browsers. So the issues here in the forum are really moot. We don't have an app store as good as the competing mobile OSs do and nobody here has the solution if it only includes their own needs, wants, and usage habits...or those of whichever side they are on. MS has to meet all of our needs in order to compete, and they just haven't done that yet. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens.
 
Last edited:

EliteMikes

New member
Nov 26, 2011
213
0
0
Visit site
I really didn't want to jump ship. I technically haven't just yet but I think my mind is made up. I have my 950xl sitting on it's box and I've been using the S8+ for a couple of days now with MS apps as my core services.

For the most part, most apps work as well if not better on android. Skype is actually quick.... Authenticator works nicely, though I don't really care about the new feature. News and weather are okay, they are actually nicer on windows I think right now. Outlook has some nice UI touches that windows doesn't, but there are things I like about the windows app as well.

MS has done mapping right IMO as far as the offline data source.
MS also has background task management done right for the most part, there should be no max limit. Android, as far as I can tell has no way of leaving an app installed but not allowing it to run in the background. I think that is just dumb no matter how good you think your process management is.

As far as other apps go. I say I'm not an app person, but I just installed a crap load of apps. From restaurants to stores to TV viewing apps. All of my banks are there and they support fingerprint auth.

MS has laid the groundwork for an awesome OS, but I am not optimistic they can recover a user base anytime soon. I'm going to keep a cheap device on hand to keep up with dev builds and tinker with UWP.

Getting back to the point of this thread, it's understandable why MS is not focusing on it's own apps. I'm a software developer and we have to focus on core areas of our system that get the most use. Edge cases are often in maintenance mode and we have to tell the small fraction of users they need to find a way to bring more funds to our table if they want new features.
 

anon(50597)

New member
Sep 28, 2014
2,209
0
0
Visit site
We've had patience since wp7 in 2010 with Microsoft and all this "soon" and coming weeks bs....how long are u willing to wait? Until you're dead?

Sent from Idol 4s

I'm not actually waiting for anything because I'm perfectly happy. I am interested in what they are developing for the future and how it will change the way we use technology. Thus why I'm hanging on a Windows fan site.

Sent from mTalk on my SP4
 

anon(50597)

New member
Sep 28, 2014
2,209
0
0
Visit site
Ebay, PayPal, chase bank, ....theres plenty of app leaving every week

Sent from Idol 4s

All of which I have pinned to my start screen and use every day without issue. Sure, it would be nice if they had kept the apps alive but it hasn't affected me negatively at all.

Sent from mTalk on my SP4
 

anon(50597)

New member
Sep 28, 2014
2,209
0
0
Visit site
I see what you're saying. The problem is that everyone here is a Windows fan, but we all have different user needs that, for the moment, can or can't be filled by W10M depending on who you are. On one side, you have people like me who use lots of apps because they are convenient and often times quick and efficient at getting things done. It doesn't mean that I spend all my time in Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat. It just means that I like having apps. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, if you bring up the lack of apps in these threads, you are immediately labeled as being a social media junkie and it's implied that you're opinion is somehow less than the opinions of people who don't need or care to use apps. These people say things like they are more business minded or do more productive work. On the flip side, whenever I see people defend W10M by saying that they don't use apps or that you can use the browser as an app replacement, I think that they are just grabbing at straws in defense of an OS that has clearly lost the consumer market. I'm just as guilty as the other person. My point is, no matter how we describe our experiences with Windows phones, the numbers don't lie at the moment. The entire population of us would barely fill a large city compared to the populations of Android and Apple users. All of us that are still here are letting that fact and the fact that our expectations have been severely let down by MS get to us. When people get frustrated and desperate they choose sides and become even more convinced that their opinion is the right one. The forum here, like the current state of political affairs in the world, is demonstrating this behavior all the time. Truth is, MS can't afford to listen to us. They have to base their decision on the trajectory of Android's app store. They have to be studying human behavior. Asking questions about why apps are so popular, are there any dislikes about Apps, what can possibly replace an app? And it can't be the browser. Browsing is a web term. The young people that I teach have no use for browsers outside of my classroom, and those kiddos are MS's primary target if they go after consumers. Besides, apps always were convenient replacements for browsers. So the issues here in the forum are really moot. We don't have an app store as good as the competing mobile OSs do and nobody here has the solution if it only includes their own needs, wants, and usage habits...or those of whichever side they are on. MS has to meet all of our needs in order to compete, and they just haven't done that yet. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens.

Well said. I do think it depends on your perspective and if you're willing to use what works best for you. I do happen to believe using the browser works extremely well.
Question about your students. Do you think, if MS cloud builds in the education sector, that students will take to the MS model?

Sent from mTalk on my SP4
 

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
I see what you're saying. The problem is that everyone here is a Windows fan, but we all have different user needs that, for the moment, can or can't be filled by W10M depending on who you are. On one side, you have people like me who use lots of apps because they are convenient and often times quick and efficient at getting things done. It doesn't mean that I spend all my time in Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat. It just means that I like having apps. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, if you bring up the lack of apps in these threads, you are immediately labeled as being a social media junkie and it's implied that you're opinion is somehow less than the opinions of people who don't need or care to use apps. These people say things like they are more business minded or do more productive work. On the flip side, whenever I see people defend W10M by saying that they don't use apps or that you can use the browser as an app replacement, I think that they are just grabbing at straws in defense of an OS that has clearly lost the consumer market. I'm just as guilty as the other person. My point is, no matter how we describe our experiences with Windows phones, the numbers don't lie at the moment. The entire population of us would barely fill a large city compared to the populations of Android and Apple users. All of us that are still here are letting that fact and the fact that our expectations have been severely let down by MS get to us. When people get frustrated and desperate they choose sides and become even more convinced that their opinion is the right one. The forum here, like the current state of political affairs in the world, is demonstrating this behavior all the time. Truth is, MS can't afford to listen to us. They have to base their decision on the trajectory of Android's app store. They have to be studying human behavior. Asking questions about why apps are so popular, are there any dislikes about Apps, what can possibly replace an app? And it can't be the browser. Browsing is a web term. The young people that I teach have no use for browsers outside of my classroom, and those kiddos are MS's primary target if they go after consumers. Besides, apps always were convenient replacements for browsers. So the issues here in the forum are really moot. We don't have an app store as good as the competing mobile OSs do and nobody here has the solution if it only includes their own needs, wants, and usage habits...or those of whichever side they are on. MS has to meet all of our needs in order to compete, and they just haven't done that yet. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens.

Its kind of interesting the comparison between windows 10 and android apps.

I work with both OSs. Actually app wise they both have strengths. MS apps, Cortana, anything remotely connected to the stylus is better on windows. If you were an artist for example, you'd be better with windows 10 mobile by far. Many areas are similar. Even specialty apps like music writing, or games, there are enough decent games to get one by.

For my mi band 2, there are more apps on android, but they are pretty buggy, and not that helpful. The one on windows works just as well as anything else. A lot of smart devices have third party apps.

Then there are things like banking apps, or snapchat, or Spotify, where there are noticeable absences. In that whether current windows 10, or android would suit you does depend quite a bit on ones needs, and which apps, you personally use.

The main reason, really we use apps over browsers is the tiny touch screen interface, and the speed on mobile networks. Apps are a little quicker, even on desktops, and the UI's tend to be better refined. Theoretically, as network speeds increase, and web coding improves, the difference disappates. For example, on my tablet I run the Spotify web app, the youtube web app etc, and they all run just as well as any other app. Any average person using my tablet would have no idea they were web apps and not regular apps really.

I think whats really going to replace small screen touch apps however is multiple - bigger screen possibilitys via augmented reality and device convergence. Its slow to take off convergence, but there is an everyday reason not to have six devices that all do similar things in the family home; Money, the awkawardness of syncing, cloud use, set-up. I honestly believe that will slowly drive device convergence into the mainstream. People, at heart, want two or maybe three devices, not one of every catergory. As pragmatism kicks in over wow factor, it'll make more sense to buy a device with more than one role.

And bigger screen apps, and scalable apps can be more complex. People use less apps, more full browser on a desktop. I use UWPs even on desktop, but I'd never use one for this site for example. Windows tabbing, full desktop sites, more involved UI - all those things emerge as you scale to bigger screen. Simply projecting a smartphone screen onto your wall, or 50 inch monitor, isn't going to cut anyone's sandwich.

And device convergence for consumers plays in on the console too, and project scopio- between desktop gaming, and xbox, Microsoft actually dominates the gaming space. Bringing those together, and with onecore and the UWP platform proper - that's a window into mainstream consumers lives for mindshare and windows 10.

The other thing that will drive the death of small screen apps, and indeed some existing profit models, like freemium advertising as a serious money spinner- voice. Neither of these things is as far off mainstream adoption as say, VR, AR, or foldable screens. Convergence and voice control - they are tangibly close.

I also see us nearing the "peak" of smartphones. Where profits start to thin. I can imagine some serious effort from the other big players into new frontiers too, when this begins. Look at the Samsung tab, and the ipad pro (or the new plain "ipad") for examples of what it looks like when major players start to loose sales.

I don't see small screen touch apps as an eternal advantage, at all, anymore than sybian apps, or terminal/dos programs. Things will always move. What matters is consumer buzz, and the money call to developers. Fortunately there are some good ways for MS to address the app gap, via bigger screened cheaper cellular connected devices with windows on arm, and windows cloud.

Ultimately though, technology has become a fashion. Be ahead, or be square.

When voice takes over, people will sit enviously and curiously on the bus, as they did with smartphones in 2008. Same with folding screens, at, vr. Kids, the kids you talk about don't really care about how things are achieved - they care about how their "leader" peers are achieving it, those early tech adopters. If one kid is playing with the lego, the other kid wants to. People are the same, at a kind of basic level.

You want the boom adoption profits, and those early tech saavy kids attention, you don't really just want "more apps", you want something even if its limited, with a bit of flair. iPhone when it came out, didn't even have an app store. Amazon spot etc are selling, and they are basically useless novelty devices (especially compared to what voice should be capable of in a few years). Honestly those home devices are mostly a gimmick, as is the curved Samsung screen.

Its not banking apps that drives consumerism, really. Smartphone users will talk passionately about devices meeting peoples needs - but we don't really need smartphones. Theres a "toy meets convenience" factor that plays as big as any lifechanging tool qualities, probably bigger.

It's the cult of consumerism.

In the meantime, use a windows smartphone, don't use a windows smartphone. It's all good, it's just a tool. Use bing if you don't wanna give money to google. Android itself isn't googles profit model. Or throw all your advertising ears at google, if you hate MS. Follow what you believe and don't let the little things bother you.
 
Last edited:

Scienceguy Labs

Active member
Jun 13, 2012
3,573
1
38
Visit site
Thanks.

I'd be 100% behind a push by our distinct towards the Windows cloud model. Google, unfortunately, got its claws into our classrooms a couple of years ago. I absolutely can't stand using the Chromebooks they bought into. Aside from being junk, the document programs are really poor in my opinion. The only thing I like is the sharing functionality, but Office has that as well. What's even more unfortunate is the fact that the company that writes the ACT state test has an app for Android that we use for testing. We could use the web browser on a PC just as easily, but the common public opinion is that apps are better, safer, etc, etc. I tell ya, Google is a crafty entity. The people in command definitely drank the Google koolaid way before the actual devices were delivered. Google even hosts our district email now. Jeeeez. 😠
That's pretty much the main reason I've had to move to an Android device this year. After spending 6 years with Microsoft, it was a tough transition.
 

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
Thanks.

I'd be 100% behind a push by our distinct towards the Windows cloud model. Google, unfortunately, got its claws into our classrooms a couple of years ago. I absolutely can't stand using the Chromebooks they bought into. Aside from being junk, the document programs are really poor in my opinion. The only thing I like is the sharing functionality, but Office has that as well. What's even more unfortunate is the fact that the company that writes the ACT state test has an app for Android that we use for testing. We could use the web browser on a PC just as easily, but the common public opinion is that apps are better, safer, etc, etc. I tell ya, Google is a crafty entity. The people in command definitely drank the Google koolaid way before the actual devices were delivered. Google even hosts our district email now. Jeeeez. ??????
That's pretty much the main reason I've had to move to an Android device this year. After spending 6 years with Microsoft, it was a tough transition.

Unfortunately people in education, and my mum is a teacher, don't make the soundest IT choices. They often pick up on consumer trends that might be temporary or in no way reflect universities or enterprise practices. I think schools like to think of themselves as progressive or adaptive in this regard, but it often means they are educating their students in technologies that have little real world application.

I know a lot of schools use google products, chromebooks, google drive, google docs, and things like ipads. But the moment they step outside that world, they have to learn windows (or at least mac osx if they work in some niche fields) anyway.
 

mattiasnyc

New member
Nov 20, 2016
419
0
0
Visit site
Keep being patient and wasting your money if u want

Sent from Idol 4s

I already bought my Lumia 950, and it's working very well and I'm very happy with it. The only "waste" I see is frequenting these forums proclaiming that something is dead and that there's no reason to continue investing in it. How is that not a waste of time and energy?
 

slivy58

New member
Sep 12, 2014
792
0
0
Visit site
I'll add a select few Windows Mobile non-existent, or soon to be defunct apps to the list...

* Cannon Camera Connect... Connect, control, and access/transfer photos from my Canon camera wirelessly
* Panasonic Image App... Connect, control, and access/transfer photos from my Panasonic camera wirelessly
* Verbatim MediaShare Wireless... Access data wirelessly through a media hub
* Mydlink Light... Access to my wireless security cameras
* Shaw Free Range TV... Streaming TV content from my service provider
* GasBuddy... Works as of now but soon to lose support for WM

Trying to access Mydlink Light via browser results in "Unsupported Browser or Operating System Detected!". Sheesh, even get similar when trying to access certain, very well established companies w/sites in my country. Can't recall this ever being an issue on any other phone I've owned, and only came to light with the advent of W10M. So essentially a web browser isn't always the saviour in every instance.

And one other point. Apps are usually designed to provide a cleaner, easier to use interface that a browser simply can't accomplish on such a small screen/device, offering the user a more pleasurable experience.
 
Last edited:

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
I'll add a select few non-existent, or soon to be defunct apps to the list...

* Cannon Camera Connect... Connect, control, and access/transfer photos from my Canon camera wirelessly
* Panasonic Image App... Connect, control, and access/transfer photos from my Panasonic camera wirelessly
* Verbatim MediaShare Wireless... Access data wirelessly through a media hub
* Mydlink Light... Access to my wireless security cameras
* Shaw Free Range TV... Streaming TV content from my service provider
* GasBuddy... Works as of now but soon to lose support for WM

Trying to access Mydlink Light via browser results in "Unsupported Browser or Operating System Detected!". Sheesh, even get similar when trying to access certain, very well established sites in my country. Can't recall this ever being an issue on any other phone I've owned, and only came to light with the advent of W10M.

And one other point. Apps are usually designed to provide a cleaner, easier to use interface that a browser simply can't accomplish on such a small screen/device, offering the user a more pleasurable experience.

BTW, are you saying none of those devices work with a windows PC? If so, that's pretty bunk. Wlan, dlna etc are standard network protocols, and shouldn't need any apps.

Well, if this is in anyway helpful, for the cameras you could just get a wireless SD card adapter. You can pick em up real cheap on aliexpress, or buy one pre-cooked like:

https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-Flas...ag=hawk-future-20&ascsubtag=UUwpUvbUpU3654952

Again, shouldn't need any apps, dlna etc are standard network protocols, only apple has trouble with. All you should need is the IP address pumped into a file browser, whether on android or windows, and the username and password - once connected to the wifi itself (which with the above device has some kind of passthrough to the router which is handy).

Never got much into local streaming much myself, I like local, wired if I have the choice. Even Bluetooth gets my goat with its glitches and stuttering.

If its on a mobile, maybe the issue is the browser your using. You could always try another? (There's more than one browser uwp app)

Agreed on the refined UI, and faster loading of apps. Use em, even on my desktop. Something like kodi, or Netflix for example, its better on a desktop than a browser. Won't argue with you there. Specially useful on small screens. Pity we have those small screens in a way. squinty little fiddly buggers.

If your locally sharing media like movies, you might try a plex server. The plex UWP app is class, and it can also be made to work with kodi. Or you could just jam a USB stick/hard driver in your router, and hit the DLNA address (most wifi routers have a usb slot these days).
 
Last edited:

slivy58

New member
Sep 12, 2014
792
0
0
Visit site
BTW, are you saying none of those devices work with a windows PC? If so, that's pretty bunk. Wlan, dlna etc are standard network protocols, and shouldn't need any apps.

Well, if this is in anyway helpful, for the cameras you could just get a wireless SD card adapter. You can pick em up real cheap on aliexpress, or buy one pre-cooked like:

https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-Flas...ag=hawk-future-20&ascsubtag=UUwpUvbUpU3654954

Again, shouldn't need any apps, dlna etc are standard network protocols, only apple has trouble with.

If its on a mobile, maybe the issue is the browser your using. You could always try another?

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear enough.This all pertains to Windows Mobile. As for the browser, tried multiples with exact same results on my 830, 650 and 950.
 

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
Sorry, guess I wasn't clear enough.This all pertains to Windows Mobile. As for the browser, tried multiples with exact same results on my 830, 650 and 950.

Well, for the media sharing, there is always the ol' usb device into the wifi router, assuming yours has a usb slot. Pretty fail safe, standard DLNA streaming. Only works with set filetypes, and it does require some setup on the router settings usually.

Usually when I am hitting DLNA services (not sure if yours are), I go via file explorer on android or windows, although I do recall some need a browser, because they have a web app at the other end, and that is all sorts of pain in the butt - I had a wifi router set-up once, that worked that way, and it didn't work properly with any browser at all. And similar with some file sharing devices. I guess sometimes they want to give access to settings, not just files, but it can be a real pain in the neck, on any platform if its not coded well for the browser (and browsers are supposed to work the same, but they are all different, mobile browsers being well behind)

Even the apps on those things can be buggy - often ios gets the preferred treatment in apps with streaming. Probably because it has no microsd option, lol.

You probably don't want to spend more money setting up a plex server and using the plex uwp. But it is a pretty neat way to access streamed media from a server on a windows device. A cheap little all in one with some decent storage plugged in, and that lovely app on the other end, its your own personal Netflix.
 

slivy58

New member
Sep 12, 2014
792
0
0
Visit site
Well, for the media sharing, there is always the ol' usb device into the wifi router, assuming yours has a usb slot. Pretty fail safe, standard DLNA streaming. Only works with set filetypes, and it does require some setup on the router settings usually.

Usually when I am hitting DLNA services (not sure if yours are), I go via file explorer on android or windows, although I do recall some need a browser, because they have a web app at the other end, and that is all sorts of pain in the butt - I had a wifi router set-up once, that worked that way, and it didn't work properly with any browser at all. And similar with some file sharing devices. I guess sometimes they want to give access to settings, not just files, but it can be a real pain in the neck, on any platform if its not coded well for the browser (and browsers are supposed to work the same, but they are all different, mobile browsers being well behind)

Even the apps on those things can be buggy - often ios gets the preferred treatment in apps with streaming. Probably because it has no microsd option, lol.

You probably don't want to spend more money setting up a plex server and using the plex uwp. But it is a pretty neat way to access streamed media from a server on a windows device. A cheap little all in one with some decent storage plugged in, and that lovely app on the other end, its your own personal Netflix.

Money, not an issue. Alternatives, sure but why, and what does that say about the platform? If you have to spend more money to accomplish the same feats built into the other platforms (mainly due to app availability), then something is wrong with this picture.

My point being, WM falls short for many, especially those wanting/requiring more out of their mobile device. Not unrealistic to expect more, especially in today's world.
 

slivy58

New member
Sep 12, 2014
792
0
0
Visit site
Maybe in the end, the joke will be on MS when past loyal users don't accept what MS has to offer in the future.

Well if you have some concrete info that can quash all the negativity (past/present) surrounding the platform, and is more than wishful thinking or personal hope, please enlighten us as we're all ears. :wink:
 

Drael646464

New member
Apr 2, 2017
2,219
0
0
Visit site
Money, not an issue. Alternatives, sure but why, and what does that say about the platform? If you have to spend more money to accomplish the same feats built into the other platforms (mainly due to app availability), then something is wrong with this picture.

My point being, WM falls short for many, especially those wanting/requiring more out of their mobile device. Not unrealistic to expect more, especially in today's world.

Well to be fair, plex offers more functionality than a media sharing device. You can for example access the server remotely, sync content for offline access, access other services like youtube, organise your media. Theres an app for every type of device that exists. Its a pretty complete package for media collectors.

I've tried those wireless hardrives and share devices. They are pretty clunky next to what plex can do.
 

slivy58

New member
Sep 12, 2014
792
0
0
Visit site
Well to be fair, plex offers more functionality than a media sharing device. You can for example access the server remotely, sync content for offline access, access other services like youtube, organise your media. Theres an app for every type of device that exists. Its a pretty complete package for media collectors.

I've tried those wireless hardrives and share devices. They are pretty clunky next to what plex can do.

You're too focused on one entity and that couldn't be further from my point. And how does plex resolve the issue of me transferring images from my dedicated cameras to my phone out in the wild wirelessly? Basically it doesn't if I'm using a WP.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
323,191
Messages
2,243,424
Members
428,035
Latest member
jacobss