Microsoft's wind-down of its phone business "expected to be completed by end of June!"

[slivy58]

Re: Microsoft's wind-down of its phone business is "expected to be completed by the end of the curre

What did not help was people hanging on to their 3 year old devices and not upgrading to the 950's.



Had everyone who had an old Lumia gone out and bought a 950 then the platform might be in a better state.

It's a double edge sword of sorts. With the way things rolled out of the gate in regards to W10M then the less than stellar appearance/performance of the 950/XL series, many chose to take the "wait-n-see" approach, can't say I blame them as we did that ourselves.

If you got the "creators" themselves, in this case MS, taking on a lackadaisical mentality it sure doesn't make jumping onboard very appetizing. The way I see it, MS should have continued on in the 8.1 realm until their change-of-direction/retrenchment plans had some actual weight to it. How it unfolded was at every turn, in the early stages of the game, they got back stabbed due to their perceived incompetence. Takes a long time to recoup from such bad press.

For me personally, I switch platforms as my mindset of the day dictates whilst watching things unfold (for better or worse), not everyone wants to nor can do that. IMO, the writing is on the wall with the steady streams of despair seen daily, we'll continue using our present WM devices until they work no more.

Forgot to mention... I am riding the 650 & 950 waves at this very moment just because, we can. :winktongue:

 

[ttsoldier]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Yes.. All it means is Microsoft will stop making windows phone... The os is not dead and they will be relying on OEMs.

This has been said a long time now.

 

[Scienceguy Labs]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

I hope other OEMs stand up. I'm really hoping that Samsung makes that S8 running W10M, although I know it's just a rumor. They have so much positive press right now, it would do wonders for MS if they shared a little.

 

[Drael646464]

I feel like its worth mentioning at this point that windows on arm is not focused initially on mobile, but on LTE enabled tablets, notebooks, hybrids and also arm based servers. MS has been pretty clear about this in their language.

For those of you expecting some kind of immediate re-boot, you may be fairly disappointed. Although I do expect china (or someone) will likely make some kind of phablet from this next year (Probs about 6.4 inches, a giant of a thing), don't expect one from MS this year. Or even next.

As for the topic of this year phones....dan has mentioned he's seen some list. He said it "contained nothing exciting", which implies no lushious high end flagships (a market that is slowing anyway, and windows is marginal, so fairly understandable). But there is a list somewhere, I expect some with some midrange devices, _maybe_ perhaps a slight revision of the 4s (rather than a new model).

The strategy for mobile is clearly to leverage other areas, and its clearly been that way for awhile, since the discussions around onecore and cshell.

We are only just this year seeing some of them fruits- windows cloud, windows on arm, scorpio, so I would not expect some truimphant return to mobile just yet. Those are products that should pay off in mindshare, marketshare and development of UWPs (which are useful on console, essential on windows cloud, and useful on windows on arm - three things that should really entice devs to UWP and UWA).

Also, in tech right now, budget is an area of real growth.

Budget notebooks, budget tablets, budget phones. The high end is only really staying strong in gaming (rather than sinking) - gaming notebooks, gaming PCs, consoles.

So I think people should also start adjusting to the idea, even the big manufacturers of phones will start shifting their focus to the midrange more and more. Perhaps that doesn't excite some people as much, but consider the model of companies like oppo, lenovo and xiaomi - they make some pretty quality products, high specs, with cut prices and simply save by less marketing. So with a little less fanfair, you can get some really decent gear.

Even nokia, the subject of this thread, are smart enough to go completely on the budget end on market re-entry. Likewise windows on arm, and windows cloud are not products pitched at premium markets.

Indeed even when it comes to some future surface phone, by the time it gets to that point, the premium phone market may have slumped so much that they might pitch it midrange. Unless it truly is paradigm breaking in an obvious way - because even enterprise markets are swayed by consumer when it comes to phones. Although we may still have a year or two of phone boom yet, it does look like its about to hit saturation.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft's wind-down of its phone business is "expected to be completed by the end of the curre

It's a double edge sword of sorts. With the way things rolled out of the gate in regards to W10M then the less than stellar appearance/performance of the 950/XL series, many chose to take the "wait-n-see" approach, can't say I blame them as we did that ourselves.

If you got the "creators" themselves, in this case MS, taking on a lackadaisical mentality it sure doesn't make jumping onboard very appetizing. The way I see it, MS should have continued on in the 8.1 realm until their change-of-direction/retrenchment plans had some actual weight to it. How it unfolded was at every turn, in the early stages of the game, they got back stabbed due to their perceived incompetence. Takes a long time to recoup from such bad press.

For me personally, I switch platforms as my mindset of the day dictates whilst watching things unfold (for better or worse), not everyone wants to nor can do that. IMO, the writing is on the wall with the steady streams of despair seen daily, we'll continue using our present WM devices until they work no more.

Forgot to mention... I am riding the 650 & 950 waves at this very moment just because, we can. :winktongue:

Well to be fair MS has had to do some MAJOR pivot. Windows 8 attempted to bring the platform up to the age of touch, and it made too many compromises on the desktop, for the markets taste. Windows 10, is a successful endeavour, but due to needing to revise their approach more than once with mobile, it hasn't faired too well.

However the success in enterprise, desktop, and tablets has paid off for their latest pivot, software as a service, and will continue to in all likelihood. The fact that nokia basically had losses the whole way through, even when selling phones, never helped shareholders warm to the idea. Currently profits are higher than they have been. With a big year of releases ahead, I don't think many invested in MS are mourning the loss of windows mobile marketshare, so much as they are glad they have finally found some real market footing again.

It's easy to imagine a company like Microsoft, completely based in desktop/mouse based UI, completely floundering with a market shift like the rise of touch. They have done very well, and what they have done with their ongoing work to unify the platform, may pay off even more long term. Very adaptive.

For all the criticism of some - commercially, and practically they have more in terms of success with windows 10, and with their vision of innovation. I mean, they have essentially re-branded, and completely re-tooled both their OS, AND their business model. Honestly, I think that's impressive and far from incompetence.

What I would call incompetence is the handling of nokia, perhaps even the purchase of nokia. As nice as they are for consumers, if that company hadn't have lost money hand over first, and phones had been made somehow without the losses, MS may never have had to re-entrench. It was never marketshare, it was lost dollars. MS might have been better to simply get someone else to make phones for them (nokia even), rather than trying to run the company themselves. IDK?

All that goes squarely on ballmer (although I don't disrespect the man, he is the one who decided to co-develop the flexible graphene oled screen with Samsung, and I think that still may pay _huge_ dividends with FFs shift with mobile devices in five years or so, indeed it could almost redeem windows mobile on its own - with the help of win 10).

 

[fat8893]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Suddenly thinking about Windows 10 on ARM. Could that well replace the Mobile? Because I have a strong feeling that it can.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

So low revenue and low marketshare for windows 10 mobile are apparently "news"?

So apparently is the dipping sales of a two year old product. Lord, you'd think that MS was a hardware company!

 

[Eric Hamilton]

So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!

 

[nate0]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Suddenly thinking about Windows 10 on ARM. Could that well replace the Mobile? Because I have a strong feeling that it can. ??????

I have wondered this too. My thought was OEMs will run with the W10M, as long as Microsoft plans to support it. When W10 ARM hits Microsoft like they did before will introduce new HW with it to set the bar. And rinse and repeat...

 

[Luuthian]

So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!

There probably won't be one. Not right away anyways. Usually those devices get discounted by third parties if that happens. Microsoft will generally end up selling most leftover stock to a third party for a cheap bulk price and then the third party will sell the phones for a profit.

Liquidation takes time before you find a good deal, if any at all . Especially on the HP. They're selling to Enterprise... expect it not to happen.

 

[Drael646464]

So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!

There was actually a recent uptick of windows mobile marketshare in mature markets. Being we have some prospects around the corner like windows cloud (a windows store locked cheap notebook/tablet), Cortana skills api, and composable shell - I think there's a fair possibility there will be no liquidation sale of those high spec devices.

I mean if Cortana on the phone, can match or better alexa in smarthomes, that adds some appeal to the device. It windows cloud and on arm, bring in more UWP developers, it also does the same.

None of that hardware is old enough yet for a "oh crap, this won't even sell for pennies" panic. They might start doing cheaper deals on the midtier stuff though.

Globally, despite marketshare there are still enough sales I don't see a lot of discounting, and still see devices being promoted, coming with plans etc. Just because a multi-billion dollar company isn't making much money from it, doesn't mean its worth no ones time to sell them.

Even on a place like aliexpress, and in the refurbished market there is not a lot of discounting. If the market called for it, it would be happening.

 

[zocster]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Yeah, sure...

Samsung and Microsoft may be working on a Windows version of the Galaxy S8
Samsung ATIV S8 in the works with Windows 10 Mobile?

New Wileyfox Windows Mobile device is coming this year
Wileyfox is making a Windows phone; says "Windows is much better for security" than Android

And they are doing this because the platform is dead. C'mon guys, stop crying.

If true that Samsung will be a beast!

Sent from mTalk on a 950XL

 

[kaktus1389]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Daniel Rubino already said that any kind of Windows Phone until 2018 is very unlikely.

Samsung and Microsoft may be working on a Windows version of the Galaxy S8Samsung ATIV S8 in the works with Windows 10 Mobile?

This doesn't look exactly right, because W10M is a 32-bit system and only supports 3.5 GB of RAM, while it says 6GB RAM on the screenshot included in the article and there is no such thing released yet at "1704" version of Windows 10 / Windows 10 Mobile. While I really hope that this is true and this is on some kind of new software that we don't know about, it's hard to believe that this thing is actually real.

 

[a5cent]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

I have wondered this too. My thought was OEMs will run with the W10M, as long as Microsoft plans to support it. When W10 ARM hits Microsoft like they did before will introduce new HW with it to set the bar. And rinse and repeat...

The answer to yours and fat8893's question is: "NO". W10oA will not replace W10M.

MS is changing their approach to mobile. Windows on phones is being replaced by Windows on very portable cellular PCs. That part is true. Windows on phones is going the way of the Dodo Bird. People just shouldn't confuse that as being the same thing as "W10M is being replaced by W10oA". That's a completely different topic!

W10oA is all about bringing Win32 to very portable mobile devices. W10M was about the exact opposite. It was about entirely removing Win32 from mobile devices! Those are mutually exclusive opposite goals. W10M and W10oA are built to do different things and solve different problems. One can replace the other about as well as a tractor can replace a bus.

The UWP and W10M were designed from the ground up with touch input in mind. Dealing well with the limitations of power and resource constrained mobile devices is is also something the UWP and W10M are good at. W10 and Win32, and by extension W10oA, were not designed for any of that. The Win32 software packages that W10oA can run, neither know nor care about any of the limitations of mobile devices. Compared with mobile OSes like W10M, iOS or Android, W10oA will never be competitive in terms of battery life, security or ease of use. W10oA will require all the same maintenance efforts and computer skills that a Windows desktop does. That's why W10M isn't going anywhere. It still has a purpose that W10/W10oA can't fulfill.

Even if we don't see another device with W10M released in the next two years, it will still be there. MS will continue to develop it. If the Windows Store ever gets to a point where UWP apps are feasible on their own, then W10M will return. Very possibly even alongside W10oA, although very likely under a different name and with a NEON UI update. It will still be W10M at heart though.

 

[EliteMikes]

Re: Microsoft's wind-down of its phone business is "expected to be completed by the end of the curre

Everyone couldn't update to that phone there was alot of Verizon and sprint customers that couldn't use the phone

Sent from Idol 4s

Not to mention the available phones were not that exciting. 2 unlocked 950xls was the worst purchase of 2015 for me

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

The answer is pretty clear actually. It's "NO".

MS is changing their approach to mobile. Windows on phones is being replaced by Windows on very portable cellular PCs. That part is true. Windows on phones is going the way of the Dodo Bird. People just shouldn't confuse that as being the same thing as "W10M is being replaced by W10oA". That's a completely different topic!

W10oA all is about bringing Win32 to very portable mobile devices. W10M was about the exact opposite. It was about entirely removing Win32 from mobile devices! Those are mutually exclusive opposite goals. W10M and W10oA are built to do different things and solve different problems. One can replace the other about as well as a tractor can replace a bus.

The UWP and W10M were designed from the ground up with touch input and power and resource limited devices in mind. W10 and Win32 were not. The Win32 software packages that Win10oA can run neither know nor care about any of the limitations of mobile devices. Compared with a mobile OS like W10M, iOS or Android, W10oA will never be competitive in terms of battery life, security or ease of use. W10oA will require all the same maintenance efforts and computer skills that a Windows desktop does.

That's why W10M isn't going anywhere. It still has a purpose that W10/W10oA can't fulfill. Even if we don't see another device with W10M released in the next two years, it will still be there. MS is and will continue to develop it. If the Windows Store ever gets to a point where UWP apps are feasible on their own, then W10M will return. Very possibly even alongside W10oA, although very likely under a different name and with a NEON UI update, but it will still be W10M at heart.

Windows on arm isn't broadly speaking "a smartphone move". MS has been quite clear that windows cloud and windows on arm are about "mobile pcs" and "cellular pcs", tablets, hybrids, laptops and servers. Not candybar pocket phones.

The strategy has nothing to with replacing windows 10 mobile, and everything to do with markets MS has strength in, adding low power consumption, cheaper pricers, and LTE/Calling/GPS capability.

I can't say specifically what will happen to windows 10 mobile, only that concept of cshell and one core is definitely about blurring the boundaries such that the OS converges and the devices converge. Given every UI can scale, I think its clear that ideally every OS branch should be able to run both UWP and UWA.

Otherwise your missing opportunities when you use your phone for VR, continuum, or as a folding tablet, or streaming your xbox to your phone or whatever else.

But IoT core can only run UWP, and we are awhile from windows on arm, as a pocket device, being a budget proposition to save money on devices so that one doesn't need a mobile+pc+tablet+laptop+smart tv etc etc (which is what I think is one of continuum type propositions biggest appeal, and so far, biggest weakness, device redundancy and the burden of expense that creates for the average family - rather than high fliers who want to work away from home).

I think it's awhile before windows on arm is fully budget friendly AND scales down to devices like watches etc. Its essentially placed at the top of the current tech mobile market, in the energy efficient space anyway.

So cheap & runs UWA & is potentially really small/thin etc, is still a work in progress as far as unification goes. Given IoT core can only run UWP as well, hardware just isnt' quite there yet for full unification.

We are simply getting closer, but not close enough to call it on UWP only systems with a more strict SFF useage.

Even if we were, there would still be as you point out, security reasons for a windows cloud type solution, with windows store only software and a focus on security etc. Something like "Windows Cloud on ARM" with a windows 10 mobile type NEON updated cshell.

Redstone three has brought back throttling. That'll help with battery. But I expect with arm close, even on tablet FF, they'll be working a fair deal on energy consumption.

Full windows is after all, a real-time multi-tasking environment. Everything mobile outside of bb10, is not. They freeze apps, prioritize services. At some point to equalize battery consumption, along side throttling which is coming, they will need a "real time task limiter" like either android or bb10, when operating on limited battery sizes etc. Perhaps just a toggle option somewhere (limit number of active tasks to n when on battery), to control what would look a bit like android ram management service, that freezes hungry background tasks, and limits active apps

 

[a5cent]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

@Drael646464

W10oA will never scale down to watches AS WELL. It's not that W10oA can't technically run on watches. If we really wanted to we could already do that today. It's just that there will always be, at least in some ways, better alternatives. For example, if you'd get 10h battery life from W10oA, you'll always get more from a real mobile OS. How much of a drawback that is, compared to potential benefits, is something everyone must decide for themselves.

We also don't have to go all the way down to watches for this to matter. As long as W10oA remains compatible with Win32, it can never be a mobile OS. That comes with some drawbacks which are simply impossible to get around. In some areas like security, ease of use and battery life, W10oA will always be at a disadvantage.

That's the only thing I'm unsure about whether or not we're in agreement. I agree on every other point. That W10oA is not a "smartphone move" has been clear to me from the moment it was announced.
.

 

[Wbutchart1]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience. That would surely be the way to go and how I think they will go. To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted). That's the way I see it going, win32 apps surely not running in a 5 inch screen that would be horrid! But using continuum that 5 inch arm device could easily be powering full windows 10 on another device.

That's how I imagine they would want to take this, that is a truly cellular pc in my opinion, to dismiss the mobile element of that equation would be a foolish move on microsofts part.

 

[Sherif Hafez]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

If windows Mobile is dead then Microsoft would not invest in updating to Redstone 3 and continue to pay for those software engineers to improve the the product.

 

[a5cent]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

@Wbutchart1
I'm not sure what exactly you've misunderstood, but you've certainly misunderstood something:

1)

Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience.

I suspect what you wanted to say is that W10oA will include some parts of W10M's UI, even that would be technically incorrect though. W10oA will just include some of the apps that currently ship as part of W10M, like the dialer app. That's all. Everything else that W10oA requires from W10M is already part of W10 and will be inherited by W10oA from there.

2)

To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted).

You got any of the stuff left you're smoking? ;-)

Nowhere did I say Continuum would/should/will be abandoned. I haven't the foggiest how you came to that conclusion.