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  1. Joelist's Avatar
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       #1  
    That in a way is the #1 question - will they ever take the needed steps to build WP7+ market share? As it stands the platform is slowly dying - it actually lost share the previous quarter.

    IMHO the problem is not in OS quality. It is lack of proper promotion and lack of proper phone offerings on the right US carriers.

    On carrier offerings, while WP7 has a decent selection on AT&T it has exactly one phone each on Sprint and Verizon. This is lunacy. If the platform is going to survive and prosper they need more phones especially on Verizon, and at least one of them needs to be LTE. This is because LTE is the "leading edge" tech that the in store reps promote and also people are asking for LTE because VZW has promoted it heavily.

    On promotion, the current ads are nice but lack a critical component - they really give the viewer nothing tangible to connect the ad to. Nothing that they can walk into a carrier store (or Best Buy) and recognize a phone from the ad. So yes, what is needed is OEM ads for Windows Phones showing off both hardware and software and specifically identifying the phone. And while we are at it the phones need more "catchy" names - again this is so that prospective buyers remember it.

    The other thing that needs to happen - from both MS and the OEMs - is much more aggressive incentives offered to carrier and/or retail store reps who sell Windows Phones. Yes it is a form of bribery but it may be the only way to crack the current issue of the reps steering people to Android devices. Perhaps as aggressive as 7-10% of full MSRP per phone sold. Yes it is a huge $$$ outlay but it is essentially buying a market share to build off of for the future.
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #2  
    They're already doing what's needed. It just takes time.

    I'm actually of the belief that WP7 will mainly be there just to give early adopters a good experience so that we can spread positive messages through word of mouth when asked about it.

    The big kicker is going to be Windows 8. When Windows 8 comes out, and then WP8, all heck is going to break loose.
  3. selfcreation's Avatar
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    #3  
    actually.

    Market shares are up , even NOKIA phones are out selling Android phone on some carriers in Europe. maybe NA (north America) market shares are down ( in Canada we dint even get new WP so that explains that ) , but its actually doing well everywhere else.

    Ive been seeing like 5+ commercials from MS ( advertising the Windows ecosystem , wp+xbox+pc)

    and I’ve been seeing ALLOT of HTC + Samsung + Nokia adds as well... at lease 2-3 an hour..


    regarding the Incentives its not really MS`s job to do that for store reps. or call center reps.

    Store Incentives are normally done BY the owners of the store. or REPS from Samsung, HTC w/e.
    and most of the time ( i was a Assistant manager in a bell store ) i had to BEG the Samsung rep to give us incentives. and the ONLY time they really gave us some is when the STORE over ALL stats where GREAT

    Call center Incentives ( call center = 80% of sell`s) are done by the TL (team leader) and the Marketing department from the carrier. so again MS and Samsung/HTC dont have a say in this. incentives normally depend on Company Budgets for the year. they are like BONUSSES for the sell`s man /women)

    it does suck to some point doh , at my job . we have had ATELASE 9 ANDROID incentive this year... 1 for apple .. NOTHING for WP. and rest was just Cash give away. or Tvs ect... I wish we had a WP give away if you sell 15+ in 1 month or something..

    we all got free Iphone 4 for selling 15+ phones each. In 1 month ( I think I sold like 30 ) which is a other reason the Carriers put android and iphone , they sell like hotcakes and your ALMOST GURANTY to WIN or to ACHIEVE the Target of the Incentive.

    That’s how it works at BELL any ways. (in Canada )

    and most reps for HTC , Samsung 'lg blah blah are fan boys to android 90% of the time , unless you find the one cool dude ( like I was lucky to do :P to get some sneak peak info about next WP ;) )

    And like Reflexx said ,,, i think WP7(.5) was basically just a appetizer for what’s to come. i will say im gona expect a UGE BOOM with wp8 and W8 come out. but again , dont hold your breath,.
    Last edited by Se1fcr3ation; 11-24-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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    cedarlog likes this.
  4. sin_nombre773's Avatar
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    #4  
    Platform is not dying at all, if anything it's picking up steam.
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  5. KingCrimson's Avatar
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    #5  
    Where are the ads? I've seen nothing on Hulu Plus.
  6. Major's Avatar
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    #6  
    There are more ads now for WP7 than there ever have been, except possibly when it first launched. The figures that show a decrease in market share are pre-Lumia launch or US only. In Europe, WP7 is definitely growing. By this time next year marketshare will look very different.
  7. sin_nombre773's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by KingCrimson View Post
    Where are the ads? I've seen nothing on Hulu Plus.
    I've seen several in the past couple days, don't u ever have anything good to say?
    cedarlog likes this.
  8. N8ter's Avatar
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorLonghorn View Post
    There are more ads now for WP7 than there ever have been, except possibly when it first launched. The figures that show a decrease in market share are pre-Lumia launch or US only. In Europe, WP7 is definitely growing. By this time next year marketshare will look very different.
    People tend to watch the US marketshares numbers becuase it's the second largest smartphone market in the world. The population of contract eligible (age 18+) adults in the US is probably twice the total population of the U.K., for example. Only China is bigger now, and they just achieved that despite having almost 3x the total population of the US. High End smartphones do not sell in large quantities in emerging markets (where Blackberry is actually very strong).

    Companies after the highest profit margins care about the US for that reason (higher average standard of living = more disposable income = more potential buyers). Users of a platform care about it because failing in the US can be catastrophic. Lots of Europeans and people in Emerging markets preferred Symbian, but selling at such low profit margins in Europe and Emerging markets is often not sustainable even for very large/rich companies like Microsoft, RIM, Apple, or Nokia.

    European markets do generally tend to be less sticky than US markets as well (meaning they have less hard-core platform preferences), so that is why a lot of companies launch there first. Good sales figures there can help their products here, and there are less ridiculous regulations (and all the carriers use the same GSM bands, well most at least :P).
  9. jimski's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Reflexx View Post
    They're already doing what's needed. It just takes time.

    I'm actually of the belief that WP7 will mainly be there just to give early adopters a good experience so that we can spread positive messages through word of mouth when asked about it.

    The big kicker is going to be Windows 8. When Windows 8 comes out, and then WP8, all heck is going to break loose.
    Well said. You can't saturate the market with marketing if retailers don't have the goods to sell. AT&T is on board. T-Mobile is getting started. Still need to being Verizon, and maybe Sprint, into the loop in Q1 with Nokia and whatever before you start to blitz the airwaves and and print media. WP is building momentum. Slam dunk is coming. Keep your eyes open.

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  10. Joelist's Avatar
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       #10  
    BTW it is a fact that the market share declined last quarter. And yes it is true (as stated above) that the US is the most important market. N8ter is quite right about the big difference in profit margins (which is a reason RIMs loss of US market share is catastrophic).

    In the US, WP7 is flagging badly for a number of reasons which I already alluded to. And while there have been more ads of late they are the wrong kind of ads because they are not actionable - by not specifically identifying device(s) and carrier(s) they are too vague and thus do not cause sales.

    And as for incentives, yes MS is going to have to jump in because the OEMs and carriers aren't doing so. And the incentives will have to be richer than those from Apple or for Android phones to pry the salespeople loose from those platforms. Obviously it can't be done forever (it's expensive) but it doesn't have to be done forever - just long enough to get the WP7 user base up to a point where it can grow itself through word of mouth and get better phones/pricing due to user base size.
  11. Pronk's Avatar
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    #11  
    Market share decline in the last quarter is probably not a good indicator. It was prior to the launch of most of the high-end new mango devices, so probably saw a lot of people waiting before buying. That, plus the slow loss of people on WM6.x (which as I understand it, is all lumped in).

    Advertising-wise, you cannot move for Lumia ads in the UK AND it's gaining mind share. I was speaking to a couple of guys at my tai chi class about winning my Lumia, and they were really, really impressed with it AND had heard of it and Windows Phone, and (a) neither were geeks and (b) one guy works for Sony and he STILL thought it was awesome. Anecdotal, but that's exactly the kind of thing WP7 needs - people talking about how cool the phones are.

    Seriously - at this rate people are going to think WP7 is the Nokia OS, not Nokia using a Microsoft OS! If they replicate what they're doing here in the US, then there'll be no question of marketshare and mindshare picking up.
  12. Major's Avatar
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    #12  
    I'm thinking that when Nokia finallly hits the US, they'll advertise their specific device and not the OS, which is what MS has been limited to, since they don't make any hardware. The current OEMs are not exactly spending a large percentage of their advertising budget on their WP7 devices, but Nokia is 100% WP7. One thing I've said repeatedly is that WP7 needs a halo device, and a high end Nokia would fit the bill nicely.
  13. based_graham's Avatar
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    #13  
    Q3 had absolutely nothing going for WP Mango thats just a write off Q4 and then on is where it matters
  14. jfa1's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joelist View Post
    BTW it is a fact that the market share declined last quarter. And yes it is true (as stated above) that the US is the most important market. N8ter is quite right about the big difference in profit margins (which is a reason RIMs loss of US market share is catastrophic).

    In the US, WP7 is flagging badly for a number of reasons which I already alluded to. And while there have been more ads of late they are the wrong kind of ads because they are not actionable - by not specifically identifying device(s) and carrier(s) they are too vague and thus do not cause sales.

    And as for incentives, yes MS is going to have to jump in because the OEMs and carriers aren't doing so. And the incentives will have to be richer than those from Apple or for Android phones to pry the salespeople loose from those platforms. Obviously it can't be done forever (it's expensive) but it doesn't have to be done forever - just long enough to get the WP7 user base up to a point where it can grow itself through word of mouth and get better phones/pricing due to user base size.
    If you are expecting Sprint to pony up a lot of money to d WP right now they had to pony up plenty of money to get the iPhone on their network they probably dont have the financial resources to do much with WP right now. Without a financial commitment from Sprint OEMs are not going out on limb to provide product for Sprint to sell. Without ad money Sprint cant advertise as much as they might need t. AS for as Verizon they are in and out and in ad out on WP ad the ltt sign is they are back in at leat somewhat since they had a team at Nokia World. Thats certainly a good sign IMHO and hopefully we'll see that next quarter with a launch on ATT TMo as well as VZN and the CXanadian carriers
  15. Joelist's Avatar
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       #15  
    I am simply pointing out what needs to be done. And it is going to involve MS ponying up both advertising and incentive dollars because the OEMs and Carriers apparently are unwilling. Basically it is buying market share but that is what needs to happen to get WP7 to a critical, self-sustaining mass.
  16. jfa1's Avatar
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    #16  
    MS haas been spending some money they supposaedly budgeted a bunch for ads but their campaigns for direct ads are about the os itself and specific phones would need to come from the oem and the carriers. MS is funding some of thgat I am sure but there have been more phone ads the Radar and the Nokias in Europe and some otrher ads. They are increasing in numbers I saw several times during football games for the Radar and the focus flash and thought they were pretty good ads.
  17. palandri's Avatar
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    #17  
    Nokia will need the biggest advertising campaign in the states when their phones arrive here. When people think of Nokia in the states, they think of the Nokia Theater in Los Angeles.
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  18. HeyCori's Avatar
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    #18  
    WP7 marketing has been insane in the past month. Did you not hear about what they did in New York recently? And lately I've seen plenty of WP7 ads on TV. If you still think MS isn't marketing then you're not paying enough attention.
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  19. jfa1's Avatar
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    #19  
    Or asleep at the wrong time or not staying on the tv during the commercials!
  20. Joelist's Avatar
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       #20  
    WP7 marketing insane? I've seen a total of 2 ads, and like I said earlier they are not good ads because they do not point to specific carriers and devices - hence they are not actionable because they do not tell the consumer what they need to do to have the experience.
  21. Major's Avatar
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    #21  
    Guess you just don't watch as much TV as some of us. Not a bad thing, mind you, but it works against you when you try to make a point about advertisement. WP7 is growing, and here's a link to prove it (at least indirectly):

    Sharp upward spike in WP7 Facebook users could mean 600,000 new Windows Phones sold in the 2 weeks | WMPoweruser
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  22. jfa1's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorLonghorn View Post
    Guess you just don't watch as much TV as some of us. Not a bad thing, mind you, but it works against you when you try to make a point about advertisement. WP7 is growing, and here's a link to prove it (at least indirectly):

    Sharp upward spike in WP7 Facebook users could mean 600,000 new Windows Phones sold in the 2 weeks | WMPoweruser
    Or at the same/right times!
  23. jfa1's Avatar
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    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joelist View Post
    WP7 marketing insane? I've seen a total of 2 ads, and like I said earlier they are not good ads because they do not point to specific carriers and devices - hence they are not actionable because they do not tell the consumer what they need to do to have the experience.
    WEll unless you have a rther large TV with picture in a picture to watch all the tv shows at the same time you cant possibly know what all shows have had ads for WP nor all the shows which have people using WPO devices now. And the stats in th l;ast couple of weeks since the intro of gen 2 devices on facebook appear to support an increase of about 600,000 new WP7 devices That sounds likje progress to me and market traction. As Oddball said to Moriarity in Kelley's Heroes "Stop with the negative waves"
  24. Joelist's Avatar
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       #24  
    Facebook user hits isn't even a remotely reputable metric for market share. To try to use it as evidence smacks of desperation. I also do not need to have watched all channels to see that the ads are not that prevalent and those that are on are too vague. They need to direct consumers to specific devices on specific carriers.
  25. Major's Avatar
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    #25  
    Well I did say it was indirect evidence.....

    The Lumia is sold out all over Europe and the Titan is sold out here. Granted, they probably didn't make them in iPhone volumes, but it's safe to say that the demand has exceeded all expectations.

    You tried to make your point, and maybe more people would have agreed with you a few months ago, but today is a different day. To ignore the impressions both on these boards and on the tech blogs all around the internet suggesting that WP7 is turning it around smacks of desperation.
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