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  1. gavinsane's Avatar
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       #1  
    I've been reading WPCentral for a while, and the single reason that I decided to start posting is what I am about to describe.
    I have been reading about the bias against WP7 by the carrier sales reps, and have been appalled. There is no reason for them to so blatantly attack a fantastic product

    My father, who I just hooked up with my old HD7 (Which I loved and he is now very happy with) was shopping for accessories at a local staples, was approached by a sales rep, and they asked him if he needed help. He told them that he was looking for a bluetooth headset and then they asked him what phone he had. He then said that he had the HTC HD7 Windows Phone. In a gesture of arrogance, the rep loudly and obnoxiously exclaimed "Ohh? You have a Windows Phone?" and proceeded to laugh with the other reps. They then tried to sell him on an Android phone, and the crappy midrange LG they were trying to sell him lagged so bad that they couldn't even demo it. He was able to show them the smoothness of the software, which they decry so much. This arrogance by the carrier reps and the negative perception that they are spreading is killing WP7 sales right from the start. They're shunning devices and relegating them to the dark corners where nobody looks, and sometimes fail to even include a working model. This is deplorable, and Microsoft had better act quickly to stop this.

    One week later, I took my father to a Target a few towns over. He wandered off in his own direction, and I overhead him talking to another carrier rep about accessories. He pulled out his HD7 and the rep said "Windows Phone? Those are so outdated" He then tried to sell him on an Android phone, just like the other one.

    I, and many others have been thrilled with WP7, it is, what I feel, the single best thing that has happend to Microsoft's mobile initiatives, and possibly, the mobile market as a whole. This reboot has prompted more innovation in the market as a whole.

    But if the "mean" carriers are going to gang up on Windows Phone at the main point of sale-the retail environment, then there will be serious problems.
    Just like WPtattletale has done, we need to expose these actions by the carriers for what they are.

    When people see me with my Radar, they are impressed by the fluidity and usability, saying things like "Wow there's now lag". If only the Android fanbois staffing the carriers knew.
    Sorry for the long rant, but this has been bothering many of us lately
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    snowmutt and soulzero like this.
  2. Premium1's Avatar
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    #2  
    Well now that MS is going to pay reps to sell their phones maybe they will talk about them in a little better light. It still won't change what is going to sell though no matter how hard a carrier/rep pushes one phone or how much they make per phone. It will still be the same thing people buying iphones and androids because that is what they use and know.
  3. gavinsane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    Well now that MS is going to pay reps to sell their phones maybe they will talk about them in a little better light. It still won't change what is going to sell though no matter how hard a carrier/rep pushes one phone or how much they make per phone. It will still be the same thing people buying iphones and androids because that is what they use and know.
    Yeah that is true. Hopefully it will start to make a difference.
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  4. jdevenberg's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    It will still be the same thing people buying iphones and androids because that is what they use and know.
    Not true at all. People knew Palm and Blackberry, and when they were shown something better (iPhone and Android), they switched. Your average person puts a lot of stock into what the carrier sales rep says. If the sales reps push Windows Phone, it will sell. It is a smooth OS that looks good. I know many people that are becoming dissilusioned by Android now and are going to iOS for lack of other options on their carriers (Sprint and Verizon). Several have looked at my phone and said "If my carrier had something like this I would get it, but I don't want a year old phone". MS has a hit on their hands if they can get carriers to push it. I think tomorrow at CES with Nokia will beginning of the change. I am convinced that by years end Windows phone will have at least 8% market share, and honestly believe that 12% is not an unrealistic goal.
  5. Premium1's Avatar
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    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by jdevenberg View Post
    Not true at all. People knew Palm and Blackberry, and when they were shown something better (iPhone and Android), they switched. Your average person puts a lot of stock into what the carrier sales rep says. If the sales reps push Windows Phone, it will sell. It is a smooth OS that looks good. I know many people that are becoming dissilusioned by Android now and are going to iOS for lack of other options on their carriers (Sprint and Verizon). Several have looked at my phone and said "If my carrier had something like this I would get it, but I don't want a year old phone". MS has a hit on their hands if they can get carriers to push it. I think tomorrow at CES with Nokia will beginning of the change. I am convinced that by years end Windows phone will have at least 8% market share, and honestly believe that 12% is not an unrealistic goal.
    I never really saw many people with a palm and bb was only something people used because at first that was the best available. Most of the girls and those who had a bb switched as soon as the iphone was available they only had a bb because nothing else was available. 99% of people know what they want when they go into store and no matter what the rep says will not change their minds. Trust me I see it all the time. Maybe in your area some like wp but since last year I have seen 3 people with a wp and I am around various groups of people through work. It used to be mainly bb now it is iphones and android. People want "cool phones" and unless the other carriers start getting high end wp devices most will not pick say a trophy over a iphone or android even if it may perform on par with the android and iphones.
  6. cedarlog's Avatar
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    #6  
    i guess windows phone users are the only hope for windows phone to correct the wrong
  7. jdevenberg's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I never really saw many people with a palm and bb was only something people used because at first that was the best available. Most of the girls and those who had a bb switched as soon as the iphone was available they only had a bb because nothing else was available. 99% of people know what they want when they go into store and no matter what the rep says will not change their minds. Trust me I see it all the time. Maybe in your area some like wp but since last year I have seen 3 people with a wp and I am around various groups of people through work. It used to be mainly bb now it is iphones and android. [BOLD]People want "cool phones" and unless the other carriers start getting high end wp devices most will not pick say a trophy over a iphone or android even if it may perform on par with the android and iphones.[/BOLD]
    I knew many people with Palms. I disagree with people knowing what they want. Techies do, but most consumers aren't techies. I personally have persuaded people to WP in carrier stores simply by showing them the phone I was looking at. As far as the rest of you post, I agree and said as much in my post. But if the demand for high end Windows Phones grows, carriers will carry them.
  8. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #8  
    The main people who don't know what they want are the ones upgrading from a feature phone. This happens to be MS's target market right now. So carrier recommendations are a pretty big deal when it comes to WP.
    aubreyq likes this.
  9. jdevenberg's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    The main people who don't know what they want are the ones upgrading from a feature phone. This happens to be MS's target market right now. So carrier recommendations are a pretty big deal when it comes to WP.
    +1,000,000 It really bugs me when people fail to understand that.
    Reflexx likes this.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    The main people who don't know what they want are the ones upgrading from a feature phone. This happens to be MS's target market right now. So carrier recommendations are a pretty big deal when it comes to WP.
    This.
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  11. btbam91's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    The main people who don't know what they want are the ones upgrading from a feature phone. This happens to be MS's target market right now. So carrier recommendations are a pretty big deal when it comes to WP.
    Yup.


    Sent from my Windows Phone using Board Express
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  12. Premium1's Avatar
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by jdevenberg View Post
    +1,000,000 It really bugs me when people fail to understand that.
    I think that is the wrong market to shoot for. 1. it is a small market and 2 why not make high end phones and shoot for the android/iphone market share? Just goes to show they don't really care and would rather piggy back off android royalties.
  13. jdevenberg's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I think that is the wrong market to shoot for. 1. it is a small market and 2 why not make high end phones and shoot for the android/iphone market share? Just goes to show they don't really care and would rather piggy back off android royalties.
    It is not too small. Low end Androids are the bread and butter for that OS. They will make high end phones, but high end users are harder to get to change OS's than low end and feature phone users. But once you build that large, albeit low end, consumer base, you attract developers. Developers then attract high power users. Look at Amazon Wireless best selling phones. Only 3 of the top 10 cost over 100 on contract. The high end users are all buying the Galaxy Nexus, Rezound, and Droid Razr, while everyone else is buying 7 lower end phones. That is the mass market. The story gets even more telling if you look at the top 25 phones. Only 4 of the top 25 selling phones on Amazon (which arguably would attract a more techie crowd that your average store) sell for over $100 with the vast majority selling below $50.
    aubreyq and Reflexx like this.
  14. mprice86's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I think that is the wrong market to shoot for. 1. it is a small market and 2 why not make high end phones and shoot for the android/iphone market share? Just goes to show they don't really care and would rather piggy back off android royalties.
    It's not a small market, at all. Last estimates showed as little as 28% of the world wide mobile market are smartphones. I'd say up to 70% of the mobile market is a pretty big target. Even in America smartphones make up only 43% of the mobile market.

    Also, a high end Windows Phone is not the same thing as a high end Android device. The relatively low requirements of the OS allow high end windows phones to be built with better materials (see Lumia 800). It's not about including raw power which the OS can't use and doesn't need.
  15. Premium1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprice86 View Post
    It's not a small market, at all. Last estimates showed as little as 28% of the world wide mobile market are smartphones. I'd say up to 70% of the mobile market is a pretty big target. Even in America smartphones make up only 43% of the mobile market.

    Also, a high end Windows Phone is not the same thing as a high end Android device. The relatively low requirements of the OS allow high end windows phones to be built with better materials (see Lumia 800). It's not about including raw power which the OS can't use and doesn't need.
    I never said it does. But to most of the non tech consumers they look at what has the better spec sheet and that is how they decide, if they are unsure what they want to buy. MS can change that if somehow they advertised it as not needing the dual cores and everything to run smooth.
  16. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I think that is the wrong market to shoot for. 1. it is a small market and 2 why not make high end phones and shoot for the android/iphone market share? Just goes to show they don't really care and would rather piggy back off android royalties.
    1. It's not a small market. It's the fastest growing market.

    2. Cutting into someone else's market share is more difficult that getting a customer that hasn't' already committed to another ecosystem.

    3. If MS didn't really care, they wouldn't be in the game at all and would only stay with royalties. It's not like it's easy or cheap for them.
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  17. Premium1's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post

    3. If MS didn't really care, they wouldn't be in the game at all and would only stay with royalties. It's not like it's easy or cheap for them.
    Except the investors wouldn't like that and they will still make some(albeit small extra $$ off of wp7 even with android royalties off the charts). Plus why give something up when you charge the OEM's 10-15 per wp handset they make even if it isn't taking off like android and ios it is still more money padding the exec's pockets, doesn't mean they are fully behind it.
  18. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I never said it does. But to most of the non tech consumers they look at what has the better spec sheet and that is how they decide, if they are unsure what they want to buy. MS can change that if somehow they advertised it as not needing the dual cores and everything to run smooth.
    I disagree.

    Most regular consumers are looking for bang for buck. They want something inexpensive but will still give them the smartphone experience.

    That is how Android has gained so much success. Most consumers didn't end up getting the high end Android phones that they saw in commercials. They got something affordable. Something under $100 with a 2 yr contract. What they liked about Android was that it was the same OS that they saw on the expensive phones, but at an affordable price.

    So I do agree that MS does need to have some expensive hero phones. I think the Titan (and soon the 900) are good for that. And after the big marketing push, consumers may walk into a store and see those cool phones and also see that there are budget alternatives running software that looks the same as the ones on the cool phones. But the big difference between WP and Android will be that even the WP budget phones run buttery smooth and fast.
  19. jdevenberg's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I never said it does. But to most of the non tech consumers they look at what has the better spec sheet and that is how they decide, if they are unsure what they want to buy. MS can change that if somehow they advertised it as not needing the dual cores and everything to run smooth.
    Non-tech users absolutely do not use a spec sheet to shop for a phone. People like my mom, my wife, my dad, and other average customers have no idea what is in their phone, other than the camera. For example, my dad is an iPhone user. He has an iPhone 4. His buddy got an iPhone 4S (upgraded from 3GS), and the two of them thought the only differences were the camera (8 MP vs 5MP) and Siri. They had no idea that the 4s has a dual core processor and supported HSPA+. Nor did they care once they found out. To reiterate Winning Guy, most consumers see the add for the shiny new super phone and go to the store, see a phone for free or $50 that runs the same software, and buy that. That is why the iPhone 3GS is still sold by AT&T. Thats where the money is. You hook someone with a free/cheap phone and get a $25 a month data plan on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    I disagree.

    Most regular consumers are looking for bang for buck. They want something inexpensive but will still give them the smartphone experience.

    That is how Android has gained so much success. Most consumers didn't end up getting the high end Android phones that they saw in commercials. They got something affordable. Something under $100 with a 2 yr contract. What they liked about Android was that it was the same OS that they saw on the expensive phones, but at an affordable price.

    So I do agree that MS does need to have some expensive hero phones. I think the Titan (and soon the 900) are good for that. And after the big marketing push, consumers may walk into a store and see those cool phones and also see that there are budget alternatives running software that looks the same as the ones on the cool phones. But the big difference between WP and Android will be that even the WP budget phones run buttery smooth and fast.
    aubreyq likes this.
  20. Speebs's Avatar
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    I never said it does. But to most of the non tech consumers they look at what has the better spec sheet and that is how they decide, if they are unsure what they want to buy. MS can change that if somehow they advertised it as not needing the dual cores and everything to run smooth.
    I agree with the above. I think non-tech consumers go almost exclusively by recommendations of friends and family or store reps. Non-tech consumers by definition don't understand specs.

    If anything, it's important for there to be at least one higher-spec WP phone so that people see that it's a real contender, and not just some "budget" OS.
  21. Reflexx's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by redraider133 View Post
    Except the investors wouldn't like that and they will still make some(albeit small extra $$ off of wp7 even with android royalties off the charts). Plus why give something up when you charge the OEM's 10-15 per wp handset they make even if it isn't taking off like android and ios it is still more money padding the exec's pockets, doesn't mean they are fully behind it.
    I'm sure MS likes those royalties. But it's never been MS's intention to destroy Android.

    MS wants to expand the market. Increase its size. Get more feature phone converts oh board.

    There's enough room for 3 big players.
  22. Rhody#WP's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    I'm sure MS likes those royalties. But it's never been MS's intention to destroy Android.

    MS wants to expand the market. Increase its size. Get more feature phone converts oh board.

    There's enough room for 3 big players.
    I agree. I don't think Microsoft is necessarily trying to knock off Android, or even iPhone. There are enough users to carve out a niche and get 15-25% of the market. That might be enough to get people using Live services, Bing, Office, Xbox Live, and Windows 7. Then see where it goes from there.
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    #23  


    Apt for this thread I think, made me smile. :D

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  24. Siah1214's Avatar
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    It's funny cause I walked into an AT&T store the other day to talk about internet options and while I was there I asked if they had the HTC Titan. The rep raved over the phone and Windows phones and said that most of the people in that store agreed that in a few years it would be an iOS and Windows Phone market and Android was going to become a niche market.
    So, I guess it goes both ways.
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  25. Premium1's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Winning Guy View Post
    I disagree.

    Most regular consumers are looking for bang for buck. They want something inexpensive but will still give them the smartphone experience.

    That is how Android has gained so much success. Most consumers didn't end up getting the high end Android phones that they saw in commercials. They got something affordable. Something under $100 with a 2 yr contract. What they liked about Android was that it was the same OS that they saw on the expensive phones, but at an affordable price.

    So I do agree that MS does need to have some expensive hero phones. I think the Titan (and soon the 900) are good for that. And after the big marketing push, consumers may walk into a store and see those cool phones and also see that there are budget alternatives running software that looks the same as the ones on the cool phones. But the big difference between WP and Android will be that even the WP budget phones run buttery smooth and fast.
    The only thing is like said before with the iphone being discounted and cheap androids most will go with what they know over something they never really heard of.
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