- 03-05-2012, 07:29 AM #1
When I read some threads in this forum, I keep on seeing people making comments like 2nd gen WP devices like TItan II and Lumia 900 getting Apollo updates but not 1st gen devices like my HD7 because of hardware. It makes me laugh coz the question is whats the difference between this devices in general.
Just look at this:
1st gen and 2nd gen have the same 512 MB ROM,
The have the Same 512 MB RAM (even more on my HD7 which has a RAM of 576MB)
CPU speed is just a difference of 0.5 (1ghz for 1st gen and maximum of 1.5ghz for 2nd gen)
Based on these important specs, why can one then say 2nd gen can get Apollo updates whilst 1st gen can't. I mean based on what? cpu what?
I even see people writing that, Tango devices are similar to 1st gen so both wont get Apollo and 2nd gen will get...what the heck? With tango devices running half of all these specs? How can you write something like this...SMH.
- 03-05-2012, 08:54 AM #5
As I said in the other thread that the OP is referring to, some sort of split in support is almost certain to happen. If it wasn't, and MS already knew that Apollo would run on all existing Windows Phone handsets, there would be absolutely no sense in them not saying so right now.
Instead, we get vague non-answers. It's not what they have said that matters - it's what they haven't. And until a Microsoft spokesman clarifies exactly what the deal is, that situation won't go away. Yes, the specs are close - which is why I think it'll come down to a few key elements such as RAM and processor speed. We already know that Tango phones won't run the full list of apps. It's therefore not a big stretch to think they'll also have a separate upgrade route. Whether any other phones get lumped in with them - and if so, which ones - is the issue that remains to be clarified.
- 03-05-2012, 09:21 AM #7
The SoCs in the second gen devices are more recent and even at the same clock speed would outperform the older SoCs. Clock speed isn't everything. Better processors can perform more work in a clock cycle than those older ones.
Additionally, the Radios and especially the GPUs in the newer processors are much better.
Expect Apollo launch devices to be dual core possibly most of them with high speed HSPA+ and/or LTE in them. 1st Gen devices are ancient hardware even now. They were almost ancient on release, even.
Whether Microsoft supports them is up in the air. By the time Apollo ships early adopters will be almost out of their two year contracts with 1st gen devices so really they don't have much to lose by dropping support for them. Anyone who got a 1st gen device late probably doesn't care whether it gets an update and those who do should have just waited, IMO.
03-05-2012, 09:25 AM #8
- 91 Posts
In smartphones the CPU and GPU are integrated into a single chip called System on Chip. As far as I know all gen 1 devices use Snapdragon QSD8250 (1GHz processor) and most gen 2 devices use Snapdragon MSM8255T (1.4GHz processor) except for Radar and Tania which use MSM8255 (1GHz processor). All devices with identical SoC have the same processor and GPU. Tango devices are expected to have lower specs than 1st gen devices.
As far as I know there is no technical reason why 1st gen devices cannot run any software that 2nd gen devices can run let alone Tango devices. However support may be dropped for marketing reasons ("Buy new phones suckers!") or simply to reduce costs of supporting one additional SoC.
More info about Snapdragon SoC: Snapdragon (system on chip) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- 03-05-2012, 12:04 PM #9
I just can't image Microsoft forcing me to change my phone although it's still new and working good. In my country we don't have carrier based phones, all phones are unbranded so you can imagine, really EXPENSIVE here. Got my HTC HD7 less than a year after hard savings and MS trying to force me into buying an Apollo device? I'm praying this info is false and wouldn't come to past coz I'm just not ready....a lot of responsibilities. Just praying my HD7 is still supported. :(
03-05-2012, 12:15 PM #10
- 5 Posts
There is a big difference between G1 and G2 devices. Speed isn't always determined by CPU frequency and RAM size. GPU plays a huge role because the phone ui depends on it. Adreno 205 on G2 devices are 2 - 4 times faster than Adreno 200 on G1 devices. Faster RAM, system bus speed, and internal NAND speed (hard drive) make a huge difference. Also newer version of SoC have more hardware extensions that boost performance.
I currently have both G1 and G2 and there is a night and day difference.
In general, spec comparison on paper will not give you an idea of how faster it is until you use one on regular basis.
03-05-2012, 02:05 PM #11
- 432 Posts
honestly... i think this avoidance in answering the question by MS is actually a tactic, it makes us have lower expectations, then when Apollo does come out with support for those older gen phone, oh man oh man... we might even praise them as god of sorts
won't get me though, lol, but definitely would give me a nice little tool to stab my droid friends with
- 03-05-2012, 04:22 PM #12
Gen 2 is on ancient hardware as well! And it's even more ancient upon release than was Gen 1 when itfirst came out! $600 for a Adreno 205 and single core? At least the iPhone 4 was also on 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 at the time. No high end phones use 1.4 GHz anymore.
When the Apollo devices are released, they'll also be ancient hardware unless Microsoft is prepping up for dual core ARM Cortex A15s. The moral of the story is that Gen 1 devices aren't that "relatively" obsolete in the WP ecosystem.
P.S. I don't think Gen 2 devices are on a more efficient/ different core architecture like you suggested. I'll check that.
ETA: The Radar should have the same processor as Gen 1 and the clock rates should be directly comparable after some research. Microsoft's loss for betting on Qualcomm instead of TI or NVIDIA.
Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 03-05-2012 at 04:34 PM.
03-05-2012, 07:05 PM #15
- 150 Posts
Differences between Snapdragons S1 and S2 Snapdragons found in Windows phones are the upgrade to Adreno 205 GPU and addition of dual channel RAM, plus change to 45nm manufacturing process: Snapdragon (system on chip) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- 03-06-2012, 04:17 AM #17
If it were me and I were wrong, I would not admit it and post info corroborating the other side of the argument. -.-
The reason that newer cores are dual core again is that the CPU architecture was updated from ARM Cortex A9 to ARM Cortex A15. (CPU architecture updates typically DO have significant, material performance enhancements, unlike Gen1 to Gen2 WP clock rate improvements.) The only reason we got to quad cores so fast was because NVIDIA decided to string together a bunch of last gen ARM Cortex A9s together.
ETA: Also, I would like to add that I researched it and the Apollo phones should, in fact, be on dual core ARM Cortex A15s. This will be a very significant improvement from the current crop of Gen2 devices and, if you are budget conscious and actually aware of what specs mean, it would be an opportune time to purchase your new phone. Yay for modern spec'ed WPs!
Last edited by Sentimentgx4; 03-06-2012 at 04:35 AM.
03-06-2012, 05:39 AM #18
- 1,698 Posts
Purely speaking for myself, I won't kick up a fuss if my HD7 doesn't get pushed to Apollo. Although Mango is smooth as **** (edit: "h3ll" a swear word?) , when I play games, the phone simply can't keep up.
One of my biggest hopes for Apollo is rapid push notifications. This is such a biggie for business users as we need emails and notifications, the majority of the time, before they're even sent! Live tiles also need to be more consistent. IMO, just tightening up the data transfer speeds alone would cause my HD7 to suffer badly whilst playing games. And, who knows what other features could be running in the background in Apollo. Notification centre? Skype integration? True multitasking?
Sometimes we just have to be realistic....
I get what the OP is saying though. It's a mighty fine line between first and second gen devices.
03-09-2012, 06:19 PM #19
- 9 Posts
Since MS has given the carriers the ability to block updates whenever they want for as long as they like, why would an ATT or Verizon allow the upgrade to go through. They and the handset manufactures will look at Apollo as an opportunity to sell more handsets. Sad.
03-09-2012, 09:17 PM #22
- 150 Posts
I looked at WP Bench charts just now, and the numbers for gen 1 devices are all pretty even around 55-57 points, and the Radar as lowest scoring gen 2 device gets close to 80 points. Even though that difference is mostly from GPU and RAM/Storage improvements it could still have an impact on user experience.