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  1. socialcarpet's Avatar
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantium View Post
    This sounds like typical "everything that is newer is always better" nonsense.

    People still use physical keyboards at their computer and physical keyboards are still being made by Microsoft for the Surface. They will never really go away because people enjoy pressing buttons, which are still on the sides of the phone you are holding.

    Sure, a screen keyboard has its many benefits and yes, its going to be the dominant way to type, but there's still a demand for physical keyboards and there's always going to be a demand for them as long as people are still using their fingers to enter text and not their minds.
    I actually like phones with physical keyboards, and I would seriously consider a Windows Phone with a nice slide out keyboard.

    My point is simply that the trend in design is moving strongly away from this form factor, it adds more moving parts, points of failure, weight and bulk to a phone and the truth is that most people under 30 are accustomed to using a touchscreen keyboard. As the primarily older population who like thumb keyboards continue to age and move out of the workforce, there is going to be less and less demand for them.

    Personally, I'm still a bit more accurate on a thumb keyboard than a touch keyboard, but the gap is narrowing with every new phone and it's not about what I like. I also don't like gigantic screens on phones like the Galaxy Note, but I recognize that is where things are headed.

    Some people here have a hard time separating what THEY want and THEY like from what the majority prefers and what's actually best for most/most popular.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
  2. dogfish54's Avatar
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    #152  
    I also like hardware keyboards, but the reality is there is just too much compromise (for me anyway). The slide-out means that you either have to turn the phone landscape to type or it flips out at the bottom, adds bulk and is not nearly as like as the BB-style keyboard. The problem with the BB-style keyboard is that it takes up half the screen, and to me is not even close to an acceptable compromise.
  3. JerseySal's Avatar
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    #153  
    Paul should have been circling the drain while attached to a napkin that his father used to wipe him up with...instead of sleeping with his mother.
  4. Byzantium's Avatar
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    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by dogfish54 View Post
    I also like hardware keyboards, but the reality is there is just too much compromise (for me anyway). The slide-out means that you either have to turn the phone landscape to type or it flips out at the bottom, adds bulk and is not nearly as like as the BB-style keyboard. The problem with the BB-style keyboard is that it takes up half the screen, and to me is not even close to an acceptable compromise.
    Oh I agree, I prefer onscreen keyboards due to the dramatic drop in failure rates, but does a keyboard not fill up half the screen when you're typing? I know its ONLY when you're typing, but at least the people with physical keyboards still get the whole 4+ inch screen to view while typing, which could be a plus to some people.

    Just trying to see it from their perspective. I don't see it as a bunch of people trying to stick to dated tech, but rather, an option that is better for some people.
  5. Laura Knotek's Avatar

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    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    I actually like phones with physical keyboards, and I would seriously consider a Windows Phone with a nice slide out keyboard.

    My point is simply that the trend in design is moving strongly away from this form factor, it adds more moving parts, points of failure, weight and bulk to a phone and the truth is that most people under 30 are accustomed to using a touchscreen keyboard. As the primarily older population who like thumb keyboards continue to age and move out of the workforce, there is going to be less and less demand for them.

    Personally, I'm still a bit more accurate on a thumb keyboard than a touch keyboard, but the gap is narrowing with every new phone and it's not about what I like. I also don't like gigantic screens on phones like the Galaxy Note, but I recognize that is where things are headed.

    Some people here have a hard time separating what THEY want and THEY like from what the majority prefers and what's actually best for most/most popular.
    I believe that even older folks will prefer devices with large screens and touchscreen, rather than physical keypad. Tiny screens are not as easy to read when one is older. Viewing media will probably not be a feature that only young people enjoy. Reading books and watching movies are things that all generations like to do.
    AngryNil likes this.
  6. Brenetics's Avatar
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    #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Unfortunately for Google, Android really, really sucks and delivers an awful user experience (even in "pure JB" form)....
    I'm sorry, but this is downright laughable...
  7. crazeee's Avatar
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenetics View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is downright laughable...
    brmiller1976 gives many people a good laugh with his bitter, biased, misguided and mistaken views on Google
  8. stmav's Avatar
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    #158  
    brmiller is just fine and keeps things balanced with the android apologists that visit.
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  9. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #159  
    The thing that amuses me about the Google guys is, despite the supposed "irrelevance" of WP, they end up here all the time, spitting with rage at the critiques of that dreadful, dreadful OS. I'm not going over there to Androidland and sharing my viewpoint (which would probably be drowned out by threads titled "Another Android Virus Again -- How Do I Fix?" and "Malware Lifted My Bank Information And Now My Account Is Overdrawn -- What Should I Do?" or "Phone Bricked For The Seventh Time This Month -- Replace Again?") ;)
  10. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by socialcarpet View Post
    Keyboard phones, like the horse and buggy, are a DYING form factor that is going away. Period.
    Keyboard phones from RIM alone are outselling Windows Phones this year, 4:1.

    People will argue for it's practicality and its irreplaceability, just as I'm sure they did with the horse and buggy, but time marches on and it will be gone.
    Sounds like what people say about Windows and PCs, too.

    Frankly, there are lots of baloney memes out there that tech people accept uncritically. One is that "phones with keyboards are gone forever and nobody will buy them." Wrong. About 30 million will buy them from RIM this year alone.

    The second is that "we're in a post-PC era, and smartphones and iPads will completely replace desktop and laptop PCs." Which is, frankly, about as laughable as the "keyboards are dead" meme.
  11. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Which is, frankly, about as laughable as the "keyboards are dead" meme.
    Wait... does this meme actually exist? *thud*

    "Fortune cookie said: 'Outlook not so good'. I said: 'Sure, but Microsoft ships it anyway'."
  12. ohgood's Avatar
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    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Muessig View Post
    In this article: http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/fi...ould-make-2013 Paul Thurott says:



    I disagree that Nokia is circling the drain what with their shares going up and up and just today the news that the 920's in China sold out in 2 hours. They are hands down the best built phones around I've found and support their products better than any other company I've found. I'm not against him other comments though. Any thoughts?
    the real question is, how many sold out?
    2?
    2 million?
    200 million?
    awwwww how sweeeeeet. thanks !
    brmiller1976 likes this.
  13. tebugg's Avatar
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Muessig View Post
    In this article: http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/fi...ould-make-2013 Paul Thurott says:



    I disagree that Nokia is circling the drain what with their shares going up and up and just today the news that the 920's in China sold out in 2 hours. They are hands down the best built phones around I've found and support their products better than any other company I've found. I'm not against him other comments though. Any thoughts?
    i don't think the author of this article is right. Often lost in the mobile phone discussions, because so much emphasis is put on do-it-all smartphones, is the fact that Nokia dominates in several international markets, generating significant sales of its entry-level touch phones, like the Asha line, and the new Lumia 620. Nokia's 82.3 million phones sold in Q3 was second only to Samsung's 98 million - and that ain't bad. Plus, the recent deal with China Mobile to supply its 700 million customers with Nokia's first TD-SCDMA compliant Windows Phone in the country won't hurt.

    Nokia naysayers are quick to point out that its dividend, which currently stands at a whopping 6.6% yield, is at risk, and has been for some time. The problem, they say, is that Nokia's bleeding cash in every quarter as it ramps up Lumia smartphone sales, putting its industry-leading dividend yield on the chopping block. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nokia's Q3 ready cash is down from the prior quarter, true; but with over $12 billion still in reserve, the death of Nokia's dividend has been greatly exaggerated.

    On the growth side of the Nokia opportunity, there's still its 10,000 patents, estimated to be worth a cool $6 billion, and currently generating $650 million a year in revenue. And Nokia's patent revenue is likely to go up, thanks to the recent lawsuit claiming that RIM infringed on its WLAN (WiFi) technologies. Add in a profitable Siemens division (now a bit leaner after the sale of the fiber optics unit), world class mobile maps, and the fact that the company is netting $222 million with the recent sale/leaseback of its Finland headquarters, and Elop is quickly transforming Nokia into a lean, smartphone-making machine.

    As many a fool has commented in prior articles, the sum of Nokia's parts is greater than the whole -- the whole, in this instance, being its current share price. Now, throw in a 6.6% dividend yield on top of what remains an outstanding growth opportunity. That's the recipe for one of the best growth and income additions you can make to your portfolio -- and heading into 2013, that's exactly what Nokia is.

    Nokia is going nowhere and is now trending upward from Q4 perceived sales. I expect to see that Nokia sold around 7 million phones in Q4 when nokia announces the numbers on January 24, 2013.
    Thanked by:
    Mach_E 
  14. Byzantium's Avatar
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    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenetics View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is downright laughable...
    No, he's actually right. The user experience is pretty bad. I just use it because its the only mobile OS with geek potential.
  15. irvin792's Avatar
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    #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brenetics View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is downright laughable...
    I find Android laughable as well ;)
    brmiller1976 likes this.
  16. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #166  
    Not to be Donnie Downer again, but Commodore was consistently announcing "sell-outs" of inventory in 1993 and 1994 too. Turned out that they didn't have enough cash left (due to mismanagement) to buy parts and build product in sufficient quantities to generate cash flow and pay debt. As a result, they imploded.

    I'm not saying that will happen in this case, just urging you to take "sold-out products" with a huge grain of salt. There are only two numbers that matter -- quantity and margin per sale. Everything else is less-than-conclusive.
  17. AngryNil's Avatar
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Not true. As anybody who has owned both will tell you, the 8X is a totally different ownership and user experience in terms of hardware aesthetics. It feels thinner, lighter, more pocketable and lighter weight.
    And as measurements will tell you, the 8X is thick. Period. It's thick compared to 2012 devices, so if you care so much about the progress of shrinking phone thickness, go rip into HTC while you're at it. On Windows Phone, only Samsung has "succeeded" to meet 2012 "standards" with the Ativ S.

    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    So anybody who wear's women's jeans -- such as women -- shouldn't buy a Lumia 920? That's excluding 50.2% of the general population right there. You're off to a great start. /eyeroll
    Oh, the literal interpretations. The 920 is not so thick that it is a hindrance. Can you still hold it comfortably? Yes, you are perfectly able to comfortably hold a 200g slab. Your hand was also able to hold the 11mm thick iPhone 3GS, and it has not changed dramatically over the past few years. Can you put it in your pocket without a problem? Yes, your wallet is probably twice as thick as it. It will not impact you in any big way, it's fuss over about an aspect that doesn't have a meaningful effect on the device's usability or your workflow. Fine, you want a thin phone. That doesn't mean the 920 is pathetic, backwards or ridiculous, it means it doesn't suit your specific desires in a phone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantium View Post
    there's still a demand for physical keyboards
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Keyboard phones from RIM alone are outselling Windows Phones this year, 4:1.
    There is no mainstream demand for physical keyboards on smartphones and that is why HTC axed the slider form factor from its line-up, despite being what I would consider the best slider smartphone manufacturer. No one except for RIM is selling a bunch of phones with hardware keyboards, doesn't that make you think that it isn't (just) the hardware keyboard that is succeeding? Moreover, the traditional BlackBerry form factor is not well suited to modern smartphone platforms and capabilities - as I've pointed out, RIM's future with BB10 debuts on an all-touch device! I'd venture to say current Blackberries are almost a completely different market segment. And brmiller, how about this for a comparison - how are keyboard smartphones selling relative to slab smartphones?
  18. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
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    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    There is no mainstream demand for physical keyboards and that is why HTC axed the slider form factor from its line-up, despite being what I would consider the best slider smartphone manufacturer. Making a niche product doesn't win you relevance nor cash.
    If it's a niche product and nice products don't win you relevance or cash, why would ANY company make them? RIM still do it (although admittedly they are launching with an all-touch), it's their bread and butter. I do still believe there is a strong demand for keyboard phones, although it is probably dying out.

    "Fortune cookie said: 'Outlook not so good'. I said: 'Sure, but Microsoft ships it anyway'."
  19. AngryNil's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladinleeds View Post
    If it's a niche product and nice products don't win you relevance or cash, why would ANY company make them? RIM still do it (although admittedly they are launching with an all-touch), it's their bread and butter. I do still believe there is a strong demand for keyboard phones, although it is probably dying out.
    Read the rest of my paragraph there. If it isn't a niche form factor, why is every manufacturer apart from RIM distancing themselves from it? I personally think RIM is a special case and BlackBerries sales represent the business user, or legacy user who isn't willing to try something new. I know many who carry BlackBerries because of their work, then also carry an iPhone or similar for use as an actual smartphone.
  20. tebugg's Avatar
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    Not to be Donnie Downer again, but Commodore was consistently announcing "sell-outs" of inventory in 1993 and 1994 too. Turned out that they didn't have enough cash left (due to mismanagement) to buy parts and build product in sufficient quantities to generate cash flow and pay debt. As a result, they imploded.

    I'm not saying that will happen in this case, just urging you to take "sold-out products" with a huge grain of salt. There are only two numbers that matter -- quantity and margin per sale. Everything else is less-than-conclusive.
    i dont think commodore's issue has anything to do with nokia. they're not even in the same genre. you're trying to correlate apple's and oranges with no actual numbers to back it up. which is why this post's article is flawed.
    Last edited by tebugg; 12-27-2012 at 03:23 PM.
  21. Lumis90's Avatar
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    #171  
    Nokia is holding 80percent of marketshare when it was only WP7 I think with WP8 they're holding about 85percent. Suface phone can be like LG nexus 4 - not flagship that everyone buys, but it would be something, cause the main competitor is still Lumia 920 and I don't think that Nokia gonna give it's all technology to Microsoft.
  22. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    Read the rest of my paragraph there. If it isn't a niche form factor, why is every manufacturer apart from RIM distancing themselves from it?
    Because it's expensive for them to make, and most smartphones are essentially portable video gaming and movie watching devices.
  23. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by tebugg View Post
    i dont think commodore's issue has anything to do with nokia. they're not even in the same genre. you're trying to correlate apple's and oranges with no actual numbers to back it up. which is why this post's article is flawed.
    No, I am pointing out that "we sold out of inventory" means absolutely nothing without numbers. Commodore excited shareholders (and saw shares shoot up) several times during its death throes by announcing "we sold every Amiga we had in inventory, sales are overwhelming our ability to supply the market." But they weren't supplying the market adequately to break even.

    Whenever any tech company (including Microsoft and Nokia) starts blowing smoke up my derriere with word games like "four times better sales than a year ago" or "we've totally sold out" while refusing to provide actual sales numbers, it takes me back to my high school days watching Commodore melt-down (which culminated in being there during an internship in my freshman year in college in 1994, when the company actually shut down).

    A company that is performing well doesn't need to say "we're selling at 16 times the rate of 25% of the sales rate of four quarters ago." They say "we shipped 7 million devices, sales are strong."

    I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm steeling myself for the worst, so I don't get caught off guard the way all the Amiga people did when Commodore posted huge losses. "What happened, the Amiga 1200 was selling out, they had such strong demand they couldn't meet it, how could the company lose $177 million in one quarter?!?"
  24. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryNil View Post
    And as measurements will tell you, the 8X is thick. Period. It's thick compared to 2012 devices
    Here's a mission. Grab a 920, and grab an 8X. Take them to a user, ask them which they'd rather use every day. Most will choose the 8X.

    if you care so much about the progress of shrinking phone thickness, go rip into HTC while you're at it. On Windows Phone, only Samsung has "succeeded" to meet 2012 "standards" with the Ativ S.
    Meh, the 8X is thick in only a small spot. Most of the phone is thin, and it's light and "holdable," not heavy.

    As for Samsung being the only WP vendor to release a fully-thin-and-light phone, that's a problem, too. Windows Phones need to be competitive.

    Oh, the literal interpretations. The 920 is not so thick that it is a hindrance. Can you still hold it comfortably?
    For typing, not really. The balance was off.

    Your hand was also able to hold the 11mm thick iPhone 3GS
    ,

    Sure, and my Atari STacy luggable that I bought refurbed in 1994 was usable as a portable PC in college as well, but I wouldn't want that form factor today.

    Can you put it in your pocket without a problem? Yes, your wallet is probably twice as thick as it.
    I don't take my wallet out to hold for an extended period to type on or talk on.

    Again, you're listing an entire set of excuses as to why "the user is wrong." While everyone else is rushing to provide the user with what he wants.

    The same thing was done with large-screen phones. "Oh, you don't need that. It's too big. You'll look stupid. Blah blah blah." And Samsung ran away with the Galaxy Note series. They've sold more Galaxy Note and Note II devices this year than Nokia will sell Windows Phones (of all varieties).

    It will not impact you in any big way
    There's a new standard of excellence. "It's inconvenient, but it won't impact you in a big way."

    There is no mainstream demand for physical keyboards on smartphones
    Other than RIM, who sold more phones the first three quarters of this year than Windows Phones have been sold in all time, and who will likely sell more phones for the entire year than Windows Phones and Windows Mobile phones have been sold, put together.

    RIM's future with BB10 debuts on an all-touch device!
    Followed up closely by a keyboard device.

    You see, lots of us use our phones for real work... especially e-mail. And I absolutely loathe those typo-riddled e-mails I get from colleagues with Android and iOS devices that have incorrect words in them due to autocorrect failures, with a signature that says "don't blame me for the typos, sent this from my cell phone." I want accuracy.

    And while the WP onscreen keyboard is much better than the Android or iOS ones, it's still a compromise. A poor experience.

    Remember -- user experience is king. For those of us who use our phone as a tool for work, we want accuracy, always.

    how are keyboard smartphones selling relative to slab smartphones?
    How are Windows Phones selling relative to non-Windows Phones? See, nobody wants a Windows Phone! (Bad logic leads to really bad logic).
  25. tebugg's Avatar
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    #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    No, I am pointing out that "we sold out of inventory" means absolutely nothing without numbers. Commodore excited shareholders (and saw shares shoot up) several times during its death throes by announcing "we sold every Amiga we had in inventory, sales are overwhelming our ability to supply the market." But they weren't supplying the market adequately to break even.

    Whenever any tech company (including Microsoft and Nokia) starts blowing smoke up my derriere with word games like "four times better sales than a year ago" or "we've totally sold out" while refusing to provide actual sales numbers, it takes me back to my high school days watching Commodore melt-down (which culminated in being there during an internship in my freshman year in college in 1994, when the company actually shut down).

    A company that is performing well doesn't need to say "we're selling at 16 times the rate of 25% of the sales rate of four quarters ago." They say "we shipped 7 million devices, sales are strong."

    I'd love to be proven wrong, but I'm steeling myself for the worst, so I don't get caught off guard the way all the Amiga people did when Commodore posted huge losses. "What happened, the Amiga 1200 was selling out, they had such strong demand they couldn't meet it, how could the company lose $177 million in one quarter?!?"
    thats cool you know about commodore and all, but what does that have to do with nokia? if a store only gets 100 units of a phone and sells out of it, it's still "we sold out of inventory" whether you like it or not. if windows phone only sold 3 million phones last quarter and this quarter they are at 12 million phones, they still have 4 times the sales, whether you like it or not. you dont know the numbers of sales and neither do i, so to act like they are lying about what they say doesnt speak well about yourself. lets wait for the numbers.
    Last edited by tebugg; 12-27-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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