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  1. omniusovermind's Avatar
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       #1  
    With iOS and android leading the app count, some belive the ability of HTML5 to write cross platform native apps will noticeably shrink the app advantage of those 2 platforms. Do you think this will pan out? And if so, when do you think you'll see it happening?
  2. philxor's Avatar
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    #2  
    For certain segments I think mobile web apps or touch enabled apps are the answer. I don't need a Pulse app anymore really because their web app is good. I think for shopping, news, and generally where you don't need to interact with content or need hardware access on your phone they will work well. Sites like yelp, urban spoon, etc. really don't need apps. Half the apps on my phone are probably unnecessary.
  3. narv's Avatar
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    The only major downside is that using a web-based app as opposed to an actual app on your phone limits the app to phone and OS specific features. Mainly integration with other apps (website can't launch my apps). Features like Bluetooth, GPS, and camera may be hard to work with on a web-based only app.
  4. philxor's Avatar
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    Yeah that's why I mentioned specific hardware interaction, although location based web apps already use GPS data.

    Integration with notifications and whatnot is also an issue, for instance the FB touch app isn't too bad but people want to know the second sometime comments on their post... But honestly with backend web APIs and integration it would be better if FB just sent messages to some me kind of MS hub which aggregated notifications and then sent them to your phone. As opposed to every standalone app having its own notifications.
  5. brmiller1976's Avatar
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    #5  
    Depends. Lots of "HTML5 development" today is really "WebKit with HTML5" development, so the apps don't work in IE10.
  6. futurix's Avatar
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    #6  
    Considering how crap PhoneGap's support for Windows Phone 8 is - I wouldn't count on it!
  7. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by omniusovermind View Post
    With iOS and android leading the app count, some belive the ability of HTML5 to write cross platform native apps will noticeably shrink the app advantage of those 2 platforms. Do you think this will pan out? And if so, when do you think you'll see it happening?
    It depends on the app. HTML will always lag behind the hardware and OS capabilities. The most obvious example I can think of is how would a HTML5 FB app pop toast? People want tighter integration between apps and core OS features and that can really only happen with native apps.
  8. inteller's Avatar
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    #8  
    if the gap includes lots of feces spewing forth from it then yes, it will.

    HTML5 is write once, suck everywhere.
  9. omniusovermind's Avatar
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       #9  
    Looks like some people have misunderstandings how HTML5 works in this thread so I'll try and clear up some of them.
    The only major downside is that using a web-based app as opposed to an actual app on your phone limits the app to phone and OS specific features. Mainly integration with other apps (website can't launch my apps). Features like Bluetooth, GPS, and camera may be hard to work with on a web-based only app
    Depends. Lots of "HTML5 development" today is really "WebKit with HTML5" development, so the apps don't work in IE10.
    I'm referring to native HTML 5 apps that you would download and install from the WP8 App Market along with iPhone, Android, and BB app stores. A few of you think I'm referring to web-based apps that you use with your browser. HTML 5 can write native real downloadable apps, which solves your above concerns. They are write once, run anywhere.

    Considering how crap PhoneGap's support for Windows Phone 8 is - I wouldn't count on it!
    Nope, you must be referring to some specific app in particular called "PhoneGap" I guess? This has nothing to do with that

    It depends on the app. HTML will always lag behind the hardware and OS capabilities. The most obvious example I can think of is how would a HTML5 FB app pop toast? People want tighter integration between apps and core OS features and that can really only happen with native apps.
    A while back, Mark Zuckerburg wrote a scathing report on HTML5, blaming it on the mobile Facebook app's bad performance, and he had the entire FB app rewritten a few months ago without it. A company called Sencha called him out on this, and said the fault lies not with HTML5 but with Facebook's developers and they set out to prove it. They designed a web-based Facebook completely in HTML 5 called "Fastbook" and it outperforms Facebook's own native mobile app, and includes the same features.

    In this case the app IS web based and not native, they designed the web based app just as a concept to show how it can be done correctly. Fastbook can also be written as a native HTML 5 app. You can read the story here. Unfortunately, because Zuckerberg's incorrect and negative statements made it into mainstream media, people now mistakenly take what he said as gospel, and just repeat what they read on the internet rather than knowing the facts (no offence to the last poster of course)
  10. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #10  
    Sorry guy, IMHO if you don't know what PhoneGap is, you don't need to be lecturing anyone on what can or can't be done in a browser.

    -E
    stmav likes this.
  11. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #11  
    And the Sencha demo is kind of a joke. It's faster than the native app on a half-handful of phones. On the others, it will no doubt take a series of platform-specific hacks to make it perform well. Story of HTML.

    -E
  12. omniusovermind's Avatar
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       #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by E Lizzle View Post
    Sorry guy, IMHO if you don't know what PhoneGap is, you don't need to be lecturing anyone on what can or can't be done in a browser.

    -E
    You can't expect me to take a statement like that seriously. It's totally unrelated to the topic and you want to narrow focus on this with horse blinders on?

    As for your obvious dislike of HTML5, it's something that still needs work in order to evolve into something that can change the whole paradigm of certain phone OS'S controlling the "app count". This can only be good for phones struggling to compete with iphone and Androids.

    You're right. Let's just scrap that entire line of reasoning and encourage developers to continue favoring iPhones. To heck with the competition. Would that make you happy?

    :rolleyes:
  13. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by omniusovermind View Post
    You can't expect me to take a statement like that seriously. It's totally unrelated to the topic and you want to narrow focus on this with horse blinders on?

    As for your obvious dislike of HTML5, it's something that still needs work in order to evolve into something that can change the whole paradigm of certain phone OS'S controlling the "app count". This can only be good for phones struggling to compete with iphone and Androids.

    You're right. Let's just scrap that entire line of reasoning and encourage developers to continue favoring iPhones. To heck with the competition. Would that make you happy?

    :rolleyes:
    Cordova/PhoneGap is very relevant to the topic. It is part of what _would_ allow browser-based apps to operate like native apps. I have no hate for HTML5. But we have to wait for every browser vendor to get it right on every host OS, just like we did with previous versions of HTML. It's the reverse of the model attempted with Java. With Java, the Java team was supposed to make the virtual environment compatible with a variety of platforms. Adobe had the same problem with Flash Player only that fail was more spectacular on earlier mobile devices.. With HTML5, the task of ensuring compatibility is the problem of the platform vendor. So there will be a dozen platform vendors implementing HTML5 with varying degrees of success. Function X may run fast on Safari/iOS and crappy on Safari/Win8 while function Y runs four times faster on IE/Win8 than it does on Firefox/Win8 and it doesn't work at all on Safari/iOS. For an app/game developer, troubleshooting and resolving these minor variances can be a huge undertaking. It's easier to write decent C code, try to abstract out OS-specific details, and port to each desired platform. That's what we are seeing today and that is what I see continuing for a while, until HTML5 support gets a little more refined and projects like PhoneGap get more traction. I know you're referring more towards HTML5 apps as delivered by the app store, but that's just a minor variation of running in a browser, as those apps do run in a browser instance but those details are hidden from the user.

    -E
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    stmav 
  14. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #14  
    I'd also like to add one more thought about the Sencha demo. It was a great example of how far HTML5 implementation has progressed in the host browsers, but I think the Sencha crew hit below the belt. When FB started their HTML5 implementation, it would've been 12-18 months ago (or longer). I doubt the Sencha POC would run so well against a two year old browser (and it doesn't, from some of the comments to their announcement).

    -E
  15. omniusovermind's Avatar
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       #15  
    Excellent, and I thank you for the quick run-down. But since HTML 5 is still quite new, this means there will be obstacles as you described above. It still needs work, I won't dispute that.
    That's what we are seeing today and that is what I see continuing for a while, until HTML5 support gets a little more refined
    What I'm talking about here is the future. If/when these obstacles are overcome, then we will be presented with something companies like Apple are probably not too enthusiastic about - the ability for devices like WP8 and BB10 (and the newcomers all trying to get in the game like Jolla Sailfish, Firefox and Ubuntu's mobile OS's) to compete directly with them on hardware and OS features alone, because their head start on the size of their app store will have been reduced significantly. I understand your opinion on it at the present moment and immediate future. But I hope you're not against the advantages it will bring devices like WP8 and others? Your initial posts were quite hot against it, which I can't understand, given the forum I posted this in is for a device that would benefit from having Apple and Android's app advantage reduced.
  16. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #16  
    Heh, I'm not against it by any means. If anything else, it's the other way... we've been promised "write once run anywhere", in different senses, for like a decade and a half now and I guess I am grouchy when it's pointed out that it still isn't here right now this minute.

    I have maybe even a more utopian viewpoint with regards to Windows Phone 8. I'd like to think it will get some killer, exclusive apps, instead of being a "me too" phone OS.

    -E
  17. stmav's Avatar
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    #17  
    Unfortunately we've become an instant gratification society. Everyone wants it now, not in the future. Patience is becoming a lost virtue.
  18. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by stmav View Post
    Unfortunately we've become an instant gratification society. Everyone wants it now, not in the future. Patience is becoming a lost virtue.
    What is a reasonable wait? Literally, we are at nearly 20 years of trying to address HTML rendering compatibility across platforms, and 30+ years of trying to develop a complete solution for using the same C source code on multiple platforms.
  19. stmav's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by E Lizzle View Post
    What is a reasonable wait? Literally, we are at nearly 20 years of trying to address HTML rendering compatibility across platforms, and 30+ years of trying to develop a complete solution for using the same C source code on multiple platforms.
    I wasn't referring to your stance of write once run everywhere. My bad if it appeared that way. But more towards things getting more support and more refined. Seems like noone wants to go through growing pains. I want apps and I want them now, not they will come.

    In response to what is a reasonable wait, I have no idea. I would imagine we would get a lot of different timelines if poll was taken.
  20. E Lizzle's Avatar
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by stmav View Post
    I wasn't referring to your stance of write once run everywhere. My bad if it appeared that way. But more towards things getting more support and more refined. Seems like noone wants to go through growing pains. I want apps and I want them now, not they will come.

    In response to what is a reasonable wait, I have no idea. I would imagine we would get a lot of different timelines if poll was taken.
    I see what you mean and I agree completely, I think that a portion of WP users have an unrealistic idea of the rate at which we should see apps and games coming out. With regards to the rate of app porting, the topic of this thread is a great one, imho... essentially investigating methods by which the burden of cross platform migration might be eased in the future.

    -E
  21. tiziano27's Avatar
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    #21  
    There are many kind of HTML5 apps:
    1)HTML5 app used in a browser like a website.
    2)HTML5 app packed to be distributed in the app store, without integration with the platform.
    3)HTML5 App distributed in the App store, integrated to the platform using third party common layer like phonegap. (Write once run everywhere)
    4)HTML5 App distributed in the App store, ingregated to the platform using platform especific APIs exposed to JavaScript, like WinJS for Windows8 (Firefox OS and Tizen have those APIs too). (Write the logic of your app once and write the UI and/or the platform specific functions for each platform)

    HTML5 surely will improve the app gap problem, you can resuse all or big part of your source code no only between different mobile platforms, but also for your web site and desktop app, it's cost effective compared to the actual situation. Mobile cpus are faster and mobile browsers are competent, technology is ready or really close for many apps to jump in. Microsoft, BlackBerry, Tizen (Samsung), Firefox OS are going to push this technology as a way of surviving.
  22. omniusovermind's Avatar
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       #22  
    I think one of our hurdles right now is getting the big guns to play nice in the sandbox with each other. Historically MS, Apple, Google and others have been pretty stubborn with each other about who's browser should be the 'standard' for HTML.

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