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  1. JamesDax3's Avatar
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       #1  
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  2. ninjaap's Avatar
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    #2  
    Could be good, could be bad for our platform. Good, because we don't have to worry about future firmware updates. Bad, because it may hold tech and innovation back, because we're stuck on the same hardware for a while to please the consumers. Unless, they stick with the supposed 18 months support policy.
  3. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
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    #3  
    The Microsoft executive also touched a bit on why his company has been so quiet during Mobile World Congress, which officially kicked off on February 25. Sullivan said that Microsoft has been keeping itself busy with multiple partner meetings on each day, but that it opted not to hold a big press conference because of its new "shut up and ship" mentality. He elaborated by saying that Microsoft doesn't plan to announce new versions of Windows Phone months before they're available. Instead, Sullivan teased that we could see "some exciting new devices and more interoperability" announced before Microsoft reveals its next operating system. Exactly what Microsoft is planning is a mystery for now, but with today's news about Windows Phone 8 upgradeability and this tease of new hardware and increased interoperability, it seems like Windows Phone fans have a lot to get excited about.
    Sounds good to me. Hopefully they iron out all the bugs then add 9859805439086459054609465094576097465 new features before Feb 28th 2013 - okay, I kid about the features, although we need new features, but the bugs could do with being squashed.

    "Fortune cookie said: 'Outlook not so good'. I said: 'Sure, but Microsoft ships it anyway'."
  4. WavingReds's Avatar
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    #4  
    I like this news and will ship my cup of tea to thee!
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  5. BeaverJuicer's Avatar
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    #5  
    A smart business learns that there is a certain element of customer who will never be happy no matter what they do. Some people just like to complain and whine. The key is to minimize those, and then tune them out to concentrate on what really needs to be done.

    I suspect this is what Microsoft is doing.
    Last edited by eric12341; 02-27-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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  6. JamesDax3's Avatar
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    http://www.wpcentral.com/between-blu...equent-updates

    More on the impending WP8 updates.
    Last edited by eric12341; 02-28-2013 at 02:30 PM.
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjaap View Post
    Bad, because it may hold tech and innovation back, because we're stuck on the same hardware for a while to please the consumers. Unless, they stick with the supposed 18 months support policy.
    Perhaps, like Apple, they'll continue to update Windows Phone running on older hardware but exclude any new features that are CPU intensive to avoid damaging the user experience?
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  8. #8  
    OP, thanks for the link.

    That being said, is this really new information? Microsoft already stated that WP8 will receive updates (or be upgradeable) for at least 18 months. IMHO, the real problem is not if we will get updates or not, but the lack of any insight into Microsoft's update policies. IMHO, until they are understood, such "talking points" mean very little. For Google and Apple those policies are absolutely clear:

    Google
    Periodically publishes Android OS source code to the internet. Whether a particular device is updated is entirely up to the OEM and the carriers. Basically, Google is not involved in update policy at all.

    Apple
    Releases updates on a yearly schedule. Apple makes every update available to at least the last two generations of hardware, although some features may be disabled on older hardware.

    Microsoft
    ?

    For both Android and iOS, it is easy to dig up the underlying reasoning that led each company to choose the policies they did. For WP that isn't publicly available information. IMHO, this ties in with "all the complaining", which I largely disagree with, but understand. Why should anyone accept anything related to computer technology, without the slightest explanation as to why?
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  9. ninjaap's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by leonkehoe View Post
    Perhaps, like Apple, they'll continue to update Windows Phone running on older hardware but exclude any new features that are CPU intensive to avoid damaging the user experience?
    What if they do it similar to Windows PCs? They give us the minimum requirements and we decide if we want to pay and install it or not. But only pay for major upgrades (WP7 to WP8) not updates (WP7-7.5-7.8), like from W7 to W8. The promised 18 months support should give us 2 or 3 major updates to keep us happy.
  10. spaulagain's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjaap View Post
    Could be good, could be bad for our platform. Good, because we don't have to worry about future firmware updates. Bad, because it may hold tech and innovation back, because we're stuck on the same hardware for a while to please the consumers. Unless, they stick with the supposed 18 months support policy.
    What? WP8 is about as expandable as possible. Why do you think it and W8 share the same kernel?

    WP8 is in no way holding hardware back for at least the next several years. Any features can be added easily with "blue" like updates. The only notable feature support is full HD screens which they can also update. You don't need a whole new OS that isn't applicable to older devices every year.

    I imagine MS will go much the same route as Apple except more intense interval updates. WP7 was dropped because it was built on outdated technology that MS was already phasing out when WP7 was launched.
  11. ninjaap's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by tnxjnvbx View Post
    this was discussed so many times before.
    Sure, but now we have Blue in the mix.
  12. ninjaap's Avatar
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by spaulagain View Post
    What? WP8 is about as expandable as possible. Why do you think it and W8 share the same kernel?

    WP8 is in no way holding hardware back for at least the next several years. Any features can be added easily with "blue" like updates. The only notable feature support is full HD screens which they can also update. You don't need a whole new OS that isn't applicable to older devices every year.

    I imagine MS will go much the same route as Apple except more intense interval updates. WP7 was dropped because it was built on outdated technology that MS was already phasing out when WP7 was launched.
    I never said WP8 and W8 share the same kernel. I dont even really understand what kernel means :)
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjaap View Post
    I never said WP8 and W8 share the same kernel. I dont even really understand what kernel means :)
    His was a rhetorical question. They do share the same kernel, which is why it is so expandable -- Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 have the same core codebase (kernel) meaning upgrade paths should be as flexible (ideally) as the desktop OS has been since Windows 2000 when the kernel came into wide use.
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Rolls View Post
    His was a rhetorical question. They do share the same kernel, which is why it is so expandable -- Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 have the same core codebase (kernel) meaning upgrade paths should be as flexible (ideally) as the desktop OS has been since Windows 2000 when the kernel came into wide use.
    Oh. Hahaha now I know Thanks.
  15. interopbyt's Avatar
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    #15  
    That's great! I'm not worried about future Windows Phone updates anymore
  16. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjaap View Post
    What if they do it similar to Windows PCs? They give us the minimum requirements and we decide if we want to pay and install it or not. But only pay for major upgrades (WP7 to WP8) not updates (WP7-7.5-7.8), like from W7 to W8. The promised 18 months support should give us 2 or 3 major updates to keep us happy.
    They charge for phone updates and they'll fail. I'm not happy about paying for upgrades. Instead I'll just buy the new hardware!

    "Fortune cookie said: 'Outlook not so good'. I said: 'Sure, but Microsoft ships it anyway'."
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  17. #17  
    After rereading my previous post, I feel I must clarify what I meant with the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    For both Android and iOS, it is easy to dig up the underlying reasoning that led each company to choose the [update] policies they did. For WP that isn't publicly available information. IMHO, this ties in with "all the complaining", which I largely disagree with, but understand. Why should anyone accept anything related to computer technology, without the slightest explanation as to why?
    These are examples for the types of questions I believe MS needs to answer:

    • Why did MS say WP8 will get updates for 18 months? Why not 12? Why not 24?
    • Why is updatability tied to a certain number of months. That seems arbitrary. Why is it not tied to something more meaningful, like hardware release cycles (as with iOS)?
    • Why is MS getting rid of version numbers? For the next couple updates everything is officially WP8.0? What is that all about?
    • Will hardware improvements during WP8's life cycle be confined to improvements made within the Snapdragon S4 family, or can we expect bigger jumps to architecturally different SoC's that represent the latest and greatest, like the Snapdragon 800? Whatever the answer is, explain why?
    • While we're at it... why did WP7 not get the WP8 update? Was this a special case scenario, or can we expect similar behaviour going forward (BTW: WP7 got updates for 26 months, not 18)

    IMHO, until such questions can be answered, a short statement like "WP8 will be upgradable..." means almost nothing.
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  18. BeaverJuicer's Avatar
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    OP, thanks for the link.

    That being said, is this really new information? Microsoft already stated that WP8 will receive updates (or be upgradeable) for at least 18 months. IMHO, the real problem is not if we will get updates or not, but the lack of any insight into Microsoft's update policies. IMHO, until they are understood, such "talking points" mean very little. For Google and Apple those policies are absolutely clear:

    Google
    Periodically publishes Android OS source code to the internet. Whether a particular device is updated is entirely up to the OEM and the carriers. Basically, Google is not involved in update policy at all.

    Apple
    Releases updates on a yearly schedule. Apple makes every update available to at least the last two generations of hardware, although some features may be disabled on older hardware.

    Microsoft
    ?

    For both Android and iOS, it is easy to dig up the underlying reasoning that led each company to choose the policies they did. For WP that isn't publicly available information. IMHO, this ties in with "all the complaining", which I largely disagree with, but understand. Why should anyone accept anything related to computer technology, without the slightest explanation as to why?
    Here's the thing... Everyone knows Apple releases yearly updates... because that is what they did. Prior to them doing so, nobody knew that's what they would do, it was all merely speculation.

    Android periodically publishes updates... But gives no schedule.

    MS... Doesn't really have a track record yet, so everything is mere conjecture, just like it was when Android and iOS were new.

    These are examples for the types of questions I believe MS needs to answer:


    • Why did MS say WP8 will get updates for 18 months? Why not 12? Why not 24?
    • Why is updatability tied to a certain number of months. That seems arbitrary. Why is it not tied to something more meaningful, like hardware release cycles (as with iOS)?
    • Why is MS getting rid of version numbers? For the next couple updates everything is officially WP8.0? What is that all about?
    • Will hardware improvements during WP8's life cycle be confined to improvements made within the Snapdragon S4 family, or can we expect bigger jumps to architecturally different SoC's that represent the latest and greatest, like the Snapdragon 800? Whatever the answer is, explain why?
    • While we're at it... why did WP7 not get the WP8 update? Was this a special case scenario, or can we expect similar behaviour going forward (BTW: WP7 got updates for 26 months, not 18)
    - seems like as reasonable a number as any... Most US cell users buy on 2 year contracts, leading to a 2 year upgrade. 12 months leaves them out in the cold for half their term. At 24 months, they are likely buying a new phone anyhow.
    - it is tied to the fact that MS is saying "we are not an android mfr, and will support your phone for the life of your contract. Any updates within the 18 month timeframe will support your hardware. After that, we will not guarantee backward compatibility.
    - does that really matter???
    - see my second point.
    - WP7 phones did not have hardware that supported WP8 architecture. This was covered by many articles when WP8 was released.
    Last edited by BeaverJuicer; 02-28-2013 at 07:58 AM. Reason: added answers to specific questions
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  19. IceDree's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    Here's the thing... Everyone knows Apple releases yearly updates... because that is what they did. Prior to them doing so, nobody knew that's what they would do, it was all merely speculation.

    Android periodically publishes updates... But gives no schedule.

    MS... Doesn't really have a track record yet, so everything is mere conjecture, just like it was when Android and iOS were new.


    - seems like as reasonable a number as any... Most US cell users buy on 2 year contracts, leading to a 2 year upgrade. 12 months leaves them out in the cold for half their term. At 24 months, they are likely buying a new phone anyhow.
    - it is tied to the fact that MS is saying "we are not an android mfr, and will support your phone for the life of your contract. Any updates within the 18 month timeframe will support your hardware. After that, we will not guarantee backward compatibility.
    - does that really matter???
    - see my second point.
    - WP7 phones did not have hardware that supported WP8 architecture. This was covered by many articles when WP8 was released.
    Well said man !

    Regarding updating WP7 to WP8 ,
    from my understanding , there's some sort of a new hardware related encryption in WP8 , that can not be implemented in current WP7 devices .
    this , plus a combination of factors made it impossible to make WP8 works properly in previous Gen devices ! kinda like the WP8 on the HTC HD2 , which kept crashing every time !
  20. Gambit11B's Avatar
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    #20  
    Another reason why MS should just produce their own phone..... it'd be a LOT easier to control updates and support. Without the need for the various OEM specs getting in the way.

    Maybe offer only Nokia (because of their "sworn support" of Windows Phone) and Surface phones. Nokia could offer the general product, and the Surface phone could be the developer-like device (like the Nexus devices for Android).
    "Rangers Lead the Way!"
  21. realwarder's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by a5cent View Post
    • Why is MS getting rid of version numbers? For the next couple updates everything is officially WP8.0? What is that all about?.


    Likely related to the SDK/platform release... you can make a bunch of OS changes that don't impact the developers SDK. If that changes I'd expect the OS version to increment too.

    But we don't know it won't be 8.1... but still be called WP8. Everything is a rumor until it happens.
  22. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    Here's the thing... Everyone knows Apple releases yearly updates... because that is what they did. Prior to them doing so, nobody knew that's what they would do, it was all merely speculation. Android periodically publishes updates... But gives no schedule.

    MS... Doesn't really have a track record yet, so everything is mere conjecture, just like it was when Android and iOS were new.
    What you are saying, is that we can (and many do) base our expectations on companies past behaviour or track record. While that is true, I have absolutely no interest in that. I want to know why these companies have the update track records that they do and how that relates to the unique technical limitations of each OS and their companies business strategies. Merely having expectations based on past track records achieves none of that.

    I vividly remember the day I understood to what extent Google involves themselves in the process that leads to an updated Android device. I reached that understanding based on developer documentation and other resources I had at my disposal. That was back in late 2009, when clair was all the rage, and arguably before Android had a track record.

    I'm (possibly falsely) assuming I could have dug up the same information for iOS. Much can be unearthed in WP's technical documentation that relates to how Microsoft would like to handle WP updates, and the OS' interdependencies with hardware, but it always stops just short of making it absolutely clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    - seems like as reasonable a number as any... Most US cell users buy on 2 year contracts, leading to a 2 year upgrade. 12 months leaves them out in the cold for half their term. At 24 months, they are likely buying a new phone anyhow.
    - it is tied to the fact that MS is saying "we are not an android mfr, and will support your phone for the life of your contract. Any updates within the 18 month timeframe will support your hardware. After that, we will not guarantee backward compatibility.
    Nothing in software development is as arbitrary as you are making it out to be. Even if that time frame truly is arbitrary, their are at least caveats involved which MS isn't disclosing, most importantly the cut off point.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    - does that really matter?
    I don't know if it matters. How do you know it doesn't without understanding why they are doing it? After all, it is a novelty in the companies 30 year history.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    - see my second point.
    I don't understand how your second point is related to the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeaverJuicer View Post
    - WP7 phones did not have hardware that supported WP8 architecture. This was covered by many articles when WP8 was released.
    That was covered only in the forums, where it was repeated over and over again until it became accepted WP lore. It was also repeated by one or two of the shoddier tech sites, meaning those that have absolutely no technical credibility whatsoever, like CNet. Nowhere else. Microsoft themselves never stated any such thing, nor did any of the tech journalists that actually had an understanding of the issues.

    Microsoft had the entire NT kernel running on pre-WP7 generation ARM hardware, which basically proves that the whole hardware argument is BS. It is safe to say hardware limitations were most definitely not an issue.
  23. BeaverJuicer's Avatar
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    #23  
    What you are saying, is that we can (and many do) base our expectations on companies past behaviour or track record. While that is true, I have absolutely no interest in that. I want to know why these companies have the update track records that they do and how that relates to the unique technical limitations of each OS and their companies business strategies. Merely having expectations based on past track records achieves none of that.

    I vividly remember the day I understood to what extent Google involves themselves in the process that leads to an updated Android device. I reached that understanding based on developer documentation and other resources I had at my disposal.
    MS involves itself in the upgrade process similar to that of any other manufacturer, I would imagine. They update the OS, release it to the actual device OEMs for testing and firmware updates. This is then shunted to the carriers for testing. Most Android OEMs drop the ball in the second and third stages resulting in phones that just don't get updates. Apple forces the carriers to approve testing in a very small timeframe. BB is just a mess. No two carriers will have the same OS release, yet any given release for a phone will actually work on any network. MS has demonstrated that they are better than Android, not nearly as fragmented as BB, but don't have the same pull as Apple.

    Nothing in software development is as arbitrary as you are making it out to be. Even if that time frame truly is arbitrary, their are at least caveats involved which MS isn't disclosing, most importantly the cut off point.
    You assume this arbitrary time frame is attached to software development. I suspect it is more likely a means to prime the customer to make a new purchase. If you start missing out on features and the latest doohickey stuff, you start to look at what is on the market with a little more lust and urgency.

    I don't understand how your second point is related to the question.
    I had stated that updates will be related to the lifetime of support. They will not abandon you as soon as you get your phone. But they will not bloat their software by making backwards compatibility a huge requirement. They will give backward compatibility for that 18 month window, but then you're on your own. An update may or may not support your device.

    That was covered only in the forums, where it was repeated over and over again until it became accepted WP lore. It was also repeated by one or two of the shoddier tech sites, meaning those that have absolutely no technical credibility whatsoever, like CNet. Nowhere else. Microsoft themselves never stated any such thing, nor did any of the tech journalists that actually had an understanding of the issues.
    This relates to my comment above. You want your users to have a clear upgrade path, that includes the purchase of new hardware. You don't want to have to make sure every WP phone ever built works with current software. With hardware advancements, come coding advancements. Backwards compatibility creates bloat.

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