Do we need 1080p?

[z33dev33l]

A few years ago every phone manufacturer tried to give their phones a 3D display. People said it was the latest thing and that everyone needed to get on the latest trend. Obviously putting the latest tech in a phone isn't always the smartest thing to do.

No, like 3 OEMs did and it was never even in top-end models. Everyone always knew that was gimmicky.

 

[Musicman247]

Everyone except those OEMs...one of them was HTC, btw.

 

[ah06]

Lot of arrogance here with just NO without qualification.

My answer is yes we definitely need them.
I will provide some backup for that assertion though.

1080p on a smartphone screen—can it possibly matter? | Ars Technica
CarltonBale.com ? 1080p Does Matter – Here’s When (Screen Size vs. Viewing Distance vs. Resolution)
iPhone 4's 'Retina' Display Claims Are False Marketing | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

Soneira, who possesses a Ph.D. in theoretical physics from Princeton and has been studying displays for 20 years, said it was inaccurate to measure the resolution of the eye in terms of pixels, because the eye actually has an angular resolution of 50 cycles per degree. Therefore, if we were to compare the resolution limit of the eye with pixels on a screen, we must convert angular resolution to linear resolution. After conversions are made, a more accurate “retina display” would have a pixel resolution of 477 pixels per inch at 12 inches, Soneira calculated.

There are 3 main areas we'd have to look at.
1) Firstly the real retina resolution as shown above is even higher than the 441 ppi that 1080p 5 in screens offer. Talking about resolutions is utterly pointless without factoring screen size. All that matter is ppi (per inch, so standardised) and viewing distance. All of the advertising and common knowledge prevailing in this thread is for viewing distances of 10-12 inches (1 foot). Smartphones are very very frequently used closer than this distance (especially in the dark, in bed, texting or while reading large passages). 6-8 inches is a much more realistic distance. At this distance, the ppi requirements go upwards significantly. Just because some people cannot see pixels doesn't mean no one can. I have seen a 600ppi sample screen and I can absolutely immediately tell the difference even before I got very close. At some stage when technology enables us, we shall move to that as well.
IGZO screens for example use far less power than current gen LCD screens.

2) Second is phone sizes. Displays are getting bigger and bigger. Frankly I can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p at 4.7" at all, even 5" I have to bring it quite close. However 5.5" and 6" displays are very easy to identify as 720p or 1080p. At that size, it makes a difference. Problem is people assume that is too big. It really isn't. You could easily put a 5" screen in L920s chassis. The current S4 has a 5" screen in a chassis smaller than HTC One (4.7") or S3 (4.8"). The Note 2 (5.5") if stripped of hardware buttons (Replaced with s/w) and with minimised bezels can easily fit a near 6" screen, this is the direction we are moving and clearly from the sales figures, a Note 2 sized chassis is NOT too big for millions of people. Everyone has their head stuck in the past because they are happy with 720p on their 4.3" device. But tomorrow? On the 5.5" screen device which is the same size as 5" devices today? What then?

3) Another factor is not to do with discerning pixels at all but to do with content. At 1080p, you can see more, display more and view more content. A 5.5" device and a 4" device both running at 720p on the same OS platform will display exactly the same amount of info, just the 5.5" device will show larger elements. With more resolution, you can actually see MORE in addition to seeing BETTER.

TL;DR: Yes 1080p is necessary, especially for Phablets. Anyone who says no needs more schooling in display resolutions.
At 5", the benefits are minimal but not entirely absent.
Under 5", No.

 

[z33dev33l]

No, they knew it was gimmicky too but it's a plausible gimmick that can make some money and appeals to some. Kinda the same as most of what the gs4 does.

 

[ah06]

Resolving the iPhone resolution : Bad Astronomy

Missed that. For people with perfect eyesight, iPhones screen (326 ppi) is not Retina at 12 inches. For average eyesight, it is.
For perfect eyesight, calculate retina distances here: Is This Retina? - DPI/PPI Display Calculator

For 5" 1080p, it is Retina at 8", which means there is some science to everyone adopting 1080p at 5" and NOT just marketing.

Of course that calculator uses the lower limit of whats accepted, not accounting for Dr.Soneira's "477" conversion.

Earlier posters were scientifically off (and the ones using anecdotal evidence had poor eyesight or perception).
My own personal eyesight isn't that great. I'm happy with 720p on 4.5" and would NOT want 1080p there.

At 5", I would like 1080p especially if its IGZO

5.5" and beyond, I NEED 1080p (mostly for the extra content rather than pixel density)

 

[chezm]

I don't need 1080p,especially if its going to kill my battery. I would much rather take more customization features to UI over 1080p.

 

[ah06]

JavaScript Display Calculator

Another great link which allows you to calculate by approaching from many different factors (you can start with size or resolution or distance)

So at 5" (16:9), for 6 inches distance (the closest realistically - in bed chatting while lying down) - the ppi requirement for retina jumps to 573 ppi! So bring them 600ppi displays as soon as CPU/GPU/battery tech allows.

 

[ah06]

Another must read if you want to judge the answer by yourself:
Retina display Macs, iPads, and HiDPI: Doing the Math (updated) | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

Retina is much more than just marketing. Current 5" 1080p phones optimised for ~8 in are NOT GIMMICKS at all. Their battery life is usually BETTER than last generation (True in the case of the S4 and the HTC One), it would be better still with 720p but it does kill the myth that 1080p will destroy battery life. You've basically asked a platform independent question in a forum where 'most' members will speak based on platform limitations. You will likely get worse answers in iMore and on Android central, people will swear by 1080p

 

[ah06]

NO. End of discussion. Close thread. Move along

Yes? If we had closed thread, wouldn't have surfaced the real answer: Yes

Holding your phone from you at a standard distance 30-40cm you cannot tell the difference between the screen on a htc8x, htc one or a gs4. 1080p isn't needed on mobile devices. The current crop is perfectly good for media consumption on a small scale

With 20/20 vision, you absolutely should be able to. At 8 inches or so, you should be able to easily even if you don't have perfect vision.

No because you cannot tell the difference on a 5 inch screen

Sort of can, its just a matter of distance. 8 inches is not that far, tonnes of people hold it at 6 in many situations.

That's mainly due to the AMOLED display, not the 1080p. The S4 with a 720p screen would look just as clear.

If you hold it in your hand and close to your face. 6-8 inches, you should be able to tell the difference, its minor. It grows bigger with larger sizes

No, the human eye cannot discern the difference between 720p and 1080p on a sub-6 inch screen. That's a fact.

Nope. Utterly wrong. You ought to very easily be able to tell the difference between 720 and 1080p on a 6 inch screen (or 5.8 if you will). In a VERY obvious way at handheld distances.

Truth be told, the human eye in a vacuum can not register beyond 312 PPI and the 920's exceeds that

That is entirely distance dependent. Individual resolutions and ppi values have no meaning without accounting for distance.

The truth is, people believe marketing hype. That's what 'retina display' was - marketing hype.

I wouldn't say that. The Retina display was a very good example of something that WASN'T entirely marketing hype. Similar to Nokia's Pureview. Retina was far and away the best screen on the market and then Apple went on to put "Retina" screens onto every device category, phones, tablets and FINALLY - Laptops rescuing us from 1366x768. The way they described it at keynote as being retina at 12 inches was also somewhat accurate. Retina was the opposite of marketing hype, it was genuine progress.

 

[HM02]

this whole thread now

 

[a5cent]

Earlier posters were scientifically off (and the ones using anecdotal evidence had poor eyesight or perception).
My own personal eyesight isn't that great. I'm happy with 720p on 4.5" and would NOT want 1080p there.

I was one of those posters that offered anecdotal evidence, but contrary to what you've assumed, I see very well. What I would never do is use my smartphone at only 6" reading distance. That's almost shoving your smartphone up your nose, which would look quite ridiculous in public! ;-) Why mention anecdotal evidence? To point out that this is ultimately a very individual thing. You can tout all the scientific articles you want. If I rarely hold my smartphone closer than 12", then 1080p is completely irrelevant to me, no matter how good/bad my eyesight is.

I was well aware of everything explained in the articles you referenced (but good to have here anyway, so thanks), but none of what is stated in them makes those who don't see a benefit to 1080p wrong or blind. It depends how people use their devices. When I'm surfing the web, I tend to hold my smartphone in my hands, not between my teeth, so I don't see the 6" argument applying to many people. But if I'm wrong, well that's fine too. If people chomp on their smartphones while reading, they are free to do so...

Otherwise I would agree with most of what you said, but I don't think you're really saying anything different. You're just adding more detail.

I disagree only with your third point concerning content and resolution, but I'm likely misunderstanding you. To me it sounds like you are suggesting that if I had a 4" device with a resolution of 4000x4000 and a 6" device with a resolution of 2000x2000, then I would still see more content on the 4" display. That is obviously ridiculous, but that is what I get from your description.

 

[ramonq619]

I thought u cant really tell the difference from 720p and 1080p on such a small screen

 

[a5cent]

^ That's right. I can't.

What you're probably missing is that I always qualified that statement with: "under normal use".

I can't tell the difference under normal use.

 

[ah06]

It wasn't aimed specifically at you at all. It was at people who were certain we don't need them and that there is no difference. But allow me to clarify things that may not have been clear.

There were assertions in the first few posts without qualification that 1080p is unnecessary and that is scientifically impossible to see the difference below 6" and even 5". Both of those were wrong. Scientifically speaking, it is possible to tell the difference even on LOWER than 5" (for closer than normal distances) and at 5" for normal typing distances. At 6", it should be a piece of cake to tell the difference. These people mentioned it anecdotally without any qualification that there is no benefit to 1080p. Maybe not to them.

We absolutely need them for 5.5" and above. I'm sure you could tell the difference on a 6" screen.

At "normal" standing or sitting usage, the distance is usually about a foot or 12 inches. However the use case in bed or while lying down (especially these two use cases) the distance is frequently much less (right upto face). Lie down on your side and have your phones for chatting or reading and you will notice this.
Standing and using, yes its usually always ~12 inches

I would certainly say I went against the prevailing views in the thread. People seemed pretty anti-1080p. That may be fine for what we have right now in WP phone display sizes. But scientifically and competitively, no 1080p sort of equals no competitive phablets. At those sizes (5.5-6") 1080p and 720p is too large a difference to ignore. You could very easily see the difference (even if we ignore the edge case of usage while lying down)

 

[ah06]

I thought u cant really tell the difference from 720p and 1080p on such a small screen

^ That's right. I can't.

What you're probably missing is that I always qualified that statement with: "under normal use".

I can't tell the difference under normal use.

I don't think he aimed that at you either. So he din't mean it sarcastically.
Pretty certain he's replying to thread question with the response that he thinks its not possible to tell the difference at these small screen sizes

 

[a5cent]

There were assertions in the first few posts without qualification that 1080p is unnecessary and that is scientifically impossible to see the difference below 6" and even 5". Both of those were wrong. Scientifically speaking, it is possible to tell the difference even on LOWER than 5" (for closer than normal distances) and at 5" for normal typing distances. At 6", it should be a piece of cake to tell the difference. These people mentioned it anecdotally without any qualification that there is no benefit to 1080p. Maybe not to them.

We absolutely need them for 5.5" and above. I'm sure you could tell the difference on a 6" screen.

Yes, there were such unqualified assertions. With the one exception however, I think everybody agrees that above 5", 1080p can make sense. All in all I think the community got it right. Every few posts people mentioned that display size is an important factor, and I don't recall anybody arguing against that. I think most people understand the ramifications involved, but just didn't go to the lengths required to be precise (none of us here ever do).

I would certainly say I went against the prevailing views in the thread. People seemed pretty anti-1080p. That may be fine for what we have right now in WP phone display sizes. But scientifically and competitively, no 1080p sort of equals no competitive phablets. At those sizes (5.5-6") 1080p and 720p is too large a difference to ignore. You could very easily see the difference (even if we ignore the edge case of usage while lying down).

I don't think so. What I do think you went against is the prevailing imprecision.

I still think it's absolutely correct to say that at 5" or below, 1080p is largely a gimmick. IMHO that is what this thread has been about so far, at least in spirit. The OP was specifically talking about his/her L920 which has a display diagonal of 4.5". At that size nobody needs 1080p (except marketing departments and sales staff).

Despite all the technical documents you linked to, I still think the "good enough" argument is worthy of consideration. What we're discussing here is reaching a level of perfection that can't be disputed, even in theory. While I appreciate the theory, I'm not sure how relevant it is in practice. Firstly, almost nobody has perfect vision, so that theoretical argument applies to almost nobody. Secondly, it is my experience that almost nobody has an interest in that level of visual quality, even if they do have perfect eyesight. Most people purchase low-end computer monitors and watch television on sets with colour temperature and gamma settings that almost make me sick, yet they see nothing wrong with it. That is even echoed in most of the articles you linked to. In the words of Dr. Raymond Soneira: "For most uses, however, the extra sharpness of a 1080p display is wasted."

IMHO anyone proclaiming the benefit of 1080p around 5" really must have a $2000 colour calibrated monitor on their desk and a 4k television set in their living room. Failing that, I think it's fair to call it either hypocrisy or naivet?. I'd be surprised if even 1% of the people proclaiming the merits of 1080p had such hardware at home.

Can you explain further? The ridiculous part, I'm not sure I follow

On the same device, if I bump up the resolution, I ought to be able to see more contacts in the contacts list for example is what I meant.
On a 4" AND 5" device of the same resolution and same platform, I will see the same exact screenshot, one is just bigger than the other.
Now on a 5" device with GREATER resolution, you can fit more in

Okay, now I see what you mean.

If we were talking about Windows I would agree, but we aren't, or at least I wasn't. Mobile operating systems don't work that way. Just look at the L920 and the L820. Both run the same OS, both have display diagonals of 4.3", but the L920 has a resolution of 768x1200 while the L820 has a resolution of 480x800. If your theory were true, we'd see more content on the L920 than we do on the L820, but we do not.

I don't think he aimed that at you either. So he din't mean it sarcastically.
Pretty certain he's replying to thread question with the response that he thinks its not possible to tell the difference at these small screen sizes

Yeah, you're probably right. I hate it when people don't provide enough context to make it clear who they are replying to. Anyway, thx for clearing that up. :wink:

 

[phonohead]

This, 1080p, means we can have even smaller tiles? No, thanks. I saw that mock-up, and it was horrendous.

 

[In Limbo]

If a Lumia 920 falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Seriously though . . . to stay relevant, WP has pretty much no choice it the matter -- not as long as the majority of consumers are demanding it (even if it's not necesssary). I'm more concerned as to when battery technology will be properly integrated with our current generation of phones. Maybe we should focus on actually being able to do all the things our phone can do before our phone runs out of juice in under 12 hours.

. . . Dammit, where's my Nokia E72?

 

[a5cent]

^ yeah, same thing everyone else is saying. It's a marketing necessity.

Completely agree on the battery life issue too!

 

[anon(6038817)]

1080p on a smartphone screen? No.

The ability to output 1080p to an external display? Yes.