03-03-2014 09:07 AM
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  1. Markham Ranja's Avatar
    Again, from what I've read the countries that will have the X will not have Nexus.
    Like what? India has the Nexus 5 and Nexus 7, being sold through the Play Store direct from Google for approx 29K INR (cost of an S4 is 30, cost of an L925 is 26k).
    02-25-2014 04:03 AM
  2. Markham Ranja's Avatar
    Sorry to say it but with Larry Page now being CEO, Google has become worse then when Eric Schmidt held the preverbal steering wheel at Google. They act more like a university than a business. Private owned space flights, self driving cars, Robots, and need I mention Google Glass! They are using search, YouTube, and Android (through ads of course). To fund their Science Projects or should I say experiments. Apple and Microsoft only do experiments if it is a product or Service they will sell (remember when surface was a touch screen Table experiment?). Google should be called Larry Page and Sergei Brin's research foundation. Google is looking more at the A.I. They make and not how they want to compete.
    And why do you have a problem with that? Google is the only company among these major firms looking outside their core business. I greatly admire how they're throwing money at things for the heck of it. Whether their projects succeed, or fail, there will be good for all. If they fail, we will have learned something. If they actually manage to sort out a feasible self-driving car, they've made my morning commute a hell of a lot easier.
    02-25-2014 04:06 AM
  3. SnailUK's Avatar
    This really has nothing to do with Nokia.

    This is all about Microsoft.

    Firstly, Microsoft need to make sure every service Google offer on Android, there is a Microsoft alternative.
    Every Microsoft service on Android needs to be BETTER than the Google alternative.
    Microsoft then needs to make sure the WP versions of all these apps is better on WP, than on Nokia X.
    Microsoft need to make sure every feature of the Nokia X range is available on WP.

    The problem is, even with all this, WP is still a worse upgrade path, because of the sheer quantity of apps available on Android, that aren't available on WP. And how many of the Android apps with WP versions are worse, or more expensive?

    If Microsoft is putting this much hard work into Android, then what is the point of WP/Win RT? They are just duplicating effort. Why not just use the Nokia Android fork, whack that onto all the existing WP devices :(
    02-25-2014 04:23 AM
  4. Bartdog's Avatar
    What are these magical Microsoft services that will enthrall users of this phone and make them more likely to choose a WP later?

    Personally I say we take off and nuke the entire Nokia x range from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
    Great movie, btw.
    snowmutt and theefman like this.
    02-25-2014 08:53 AM
  5. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    What does Windows Phone have that will make Phone X users jump to WP?

    Phone X: Runs Android
    Android: Runs Android
    WP: Runs WP

    Phone X: Runs 75% Android apps
    Android: Runs 100% Android apps
    WP: Runs 0% Android apps, has equivalent WP versions.

    Phone X: Has Microsoft services
    Android: Has Microsoft services better than WP and Google services
    WP: Has Microsoft services worse than Android and NO Google services.

    Phone X: is dirt cheap
    Android: has 20 other options in same price range.
    WP: Has 1 option in that price range.

    Phone X: Is a Nokia phone and will lag after installing 20 apps (inferior RAM etc)
    Android: Doesn't have laggy Nokia phones, has snappier options
    WP: They have Nokia guys making their phones, may be laggy too!
    a5cent, snowmutt, theefman and 1 others like this.
    02-25-2014 09:12 AM
  6. anony_mouse's Avatar
    3-While this phone will support android apps Nokia will be pushing microsoft services, something android doesn't have.
    Which Microsoft services will be available for the Nokia X, which are not available on Android?
    Also, which Microsoft services are really attractive to customers? For most (all?) there are decent equivalents available, which I suspect are often more widely used.
    02-25-2014 09:45 AM
  7. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    It sounds like people for whatever reason want a Android based Windows phone....which just skeeves me to even think about, which begs me to wonder why people just dont go android then xD

    Oh wait..."They don't want to be tracked by google and blah blah blah"
    theefman likes this.
    02-25-2014 09:52 AM
  8. snowmutt's Avatar
    Yeah, this is a risky move. I appreciate businesses rolling with risks. Microsoft has made their money with software products that have been very consistent, so the average tech fan does not see how many risks MS has taken in the last 20 years. Bing, XBOX, dumping Win Mo, making their own hardware when they are so dependant on other companies are all examples.

    I have adjusted my thinking on this a little. And I also have come full circle on another thing. I had thought that this device was one of the reasons MS bought Nokia's handset division. With Nokia having the X in the pipeline, I thought it was the signal that Nokia was going to branch out to Android after the Billion dollars a year exclusive contract with MS for WP devices was over. I thought they used it to force MS's hand. Now, after this announcement, it seems obvious I have to admit Nokia had MS rowing in the same direction as them with this thinking. It has MS written all over it- use Nokia's still strong name in developing markets to push it and plaster MS services on it.

    However, I am in the corner of those that are just shaking their head. Because it LOOKS like WP UI, and it has MS services instead of Google, and we will not say the word "Android" out loud, consumers will jump to WP? HOW is that different in any way to a low end WP? Except in real world applications, it may not run as well? It just ..... doesn't... make.... sense. It is hurting my head trying to wrap my brain around it.

    Oh yeah. That full circle thing? I am left pondering... If MS was okay with releasing the "X", and Nokia was happy with it's profitable asha series feature phones and billion dollar deal with MS that helped offset their reorganization losses, why did MS buy Nokia?

    I think that Mr. Elop made a decision somewhere along the line to return with Nokia in tow to MS. I have never said or typed that until now. I do NOT think it was his original intent, honestly. I think he made the tough decisions to save the company he was CEO of. I really do. But I think by about year 2 of Nokia's relationship with MS, he started planting seeds and pulling strings to come back to MS as a conquring Hero. Nothing else makes sense. If MS was onboard with these Android phones and these were not the catalysts to buy Nokia, then something else had to be. MS had the best of both worlds with Nokia having an exclusive deal with them. No reason to make this deal unless inside forces were churning.

    Something about that bothers me.
    rockstarzzz, tgp and BIGPADDY like this.
    02-25-2014 09:54 AM
  9. k0de's Avatar
    The only way I see this phone helping MSFT is that the option to developed for this device and deploy every where is available. That way if it does get a substantial amount of support from Android Developers those same apps could be port very easy to windows 8, WP8, WindowsRT. If that option is not available I think this phone is useless,
    02-25-2014 10:00 AM
  10. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Yeah, this is a risky move. I appreciate businesses rolling with risks. Microsoft has made their money with software products that have been very consistent, so the average tech fan does not see how many risks MS has taken in the last 20 years. Bing, XBOX, dumping Win Mo, making their own hardware when they are so dependant on other companies are all examples.

    I have adjusted my thinking on this a little. And I also have come full circle on another thing. I had thought that this device was one of the reasons MS bought Nokia's handset division. With Nokia having the X in the pipeline, I thought it was the signal that Nokia was going to branch out to Android after the Billion dollars a year exclusive contract with MS for WP devices was over. I thought they used it to force MS's hand. Now, after this announcement, it seems obvious I have to admit Nokia had MS rowing in the same direction as them with this thinking. It has MS written all over it- use Nokia's still strong name in developing markets to push it and plaster MS services on it.

    However, I am in the corner of those that are just shaking their head. Because it LOOKS like WP UI, and it has MS services instead of Google, and we will not say the word "Android" out loud, consumers will jump to WP? HOW is that different in any way to a low end WP? Except in real world applications, it may not run as well? It just ..... doesn't... make.... sense. It is hurting my head trying to wrap my brain around it.

    Oh yeah. That full circle thing? I am left pondering... If MS was okay with releasing the "X", and Nokia was happy with it's profitable asha series feature phones and billion dollar deal with MS that helped offset their reorganization losses, why did MS buy Nokia?

    I think that Mr. Elop made a decision somewhere along the line to return with Nokia in tow to MS. I have never said or typed that until now. I do NOT think it was his original intent, honestly. I think he made the tough decisions to save the company he was CEO of. I really do. But I think by about year 2 of Nokia's relationship with MS, he started planting seeds and pulling strings to come back to MS as a conquring Hero. Nothing else makes sense. If MS was onboard with these Android phones and these were not the catalysts to buy Nokia, then something else had to be. MS had the best of both worlds with Nokia having an exclusive deal with them. No reason to make this deal unless inside forces were churning.

    Something about that bothers me.
    Are you supporting the Trojan horse Elop theory then?

    I see exactly where you are coming from. I am struggling to find an answer to what's baffling you too. No one on the front page or here has touched that very fact. How on earth is this better than nurturing low end WP? If MS knew it is going to buy Nokia anyway, why the open support to Android? Shouldn't they just concentrate on using same hardware and slapping WP8.1 on it? Okay, Nokia can't make WP for free, has to pay some sort of money (which I thought wasn't true, as licensing would be waved under their mutual contract) but when Microsoft makes their own handsets, they don't pay a penny to put WP8.1 on it.

    If the app argument is true, I still don't see how Nokia is going to have lets say BBM and WP8.1 won't or Facebook or Twitter or Path or Whatsapp or Angry birds and WP8.1 wont?

    The only reason I am inclining towards the app argument is because Nokia X does have Plant vs Zombies 2 and BBM on it and WP yet doesn't. But I guess by the time Nokia X hits the market and WP8.1 is announced we will see it come with those apps and more. So what's the catch?
    BIGPADDY and snowmutt like this.
    02-25-2014 10:06 AM
  11. theefman's Avatar
    Are you supporting the Trojan horse Elop theory then?

    I see exactly where you are coming from. I am struggling to find an answer to what's baffling you too. No one on the front page or here has touched that very fact. How on earth is this better than nurturing low end WP?
    No one will explain it because they cant, all they are doing is quoting the company line "microsoft knows what its doing, they're on board, you dont get it" but no one can give a clear answer on how this will lead to WP benefiting. That should tell you that basically nobody knows anything and they are just towing the line, maybe wpcentral is up for acquisition by Microsoft?
    snowmutt and rockstarzzz like this.
    02-25-2014 12:27 PM
  12. dznk's Avatar
    No one will explain it because they cant, all they are doing is quoting the company line "microsoft knows what its doing, they're on board, you dont get it" but no one can give a clear answer on how this will lead to WP benefiting. That should tell you that basically nobody knows anything and they are just towing the line, maybe wpcentral is up for acquisition by Microsoft?
    I would think that's because the idea behind the X range isn't to do with specifically benefiting WP. That's not it's aim as far as I'm aware.

    I posted most of the following in a different thread earlier, but I'll post some of it here as it's relevant:

    The X range is really there to push Microsoft's services (Skype, OneDrive, Bing etc) to people who would have otherwise bought some other low end Android device and would have probably not been presented with these services. You have to remember that they are aiming for the 'emerging markets' with this phone. It's not meant to replace anyones current Smartphone. It's to get people into the Smartphone world and immediately seeing and using Microsoft's and Nokia's services. Even if they move from an X to a higher end Android phone with the Google services, at least those users would know of and may well want to continue using those Microsoft services, even on a non WP smartphone. Microsoft has most of it's apps on other competing platforms now. They want users even if they don't use WP at all.

    I know a few people have mentioned how the X's tile interface will encourage them to upgrade to a 'better' tiled experience at a later date on WP, but I personally don't buy into the 'upgrade path' from X to WP. In fact there's more of a chance that they will upgrade from X to Android due to knowing that any of the apps they currently use on the X will be on a higher end Android phone.

    I do think some people are looking into this a bit too much, but at the end of the day it's a Nokia, that is running Android. But with it being a low end device, not available in all countries, and with it running a forked verison of Android, it shouldn't be much for us WP users to be concerned about in my opinion (well I hope not anyway). I'm still not keen on it though.

    Personally though, I would have liked for them to have not released this phone. They should have waited until WP8.1 is released with lower specs and on-screen nav buttons and let Nokia and OEM's bring out even cheaper devices than the 520 but with them obviously running WP. How this will all work out will be interesting to see. Even Nokia/Microsoft can't be sure of the X ranges effect surely. Bit too much of a gamble for my liking, but I don't think it will harm WP as much as it may appear it might do at the moment.
    snowmutt, a5cent and rockstarzzz like this.
    02-25-2014 01:25 PM
  13. radmanvr's Avatar
    Im still not seeing any concrete argument, is curiosity the only reason they would switch, and what will they be curious about when they use android apps exclusively?
    I'm not quite sure really. I do not live in an emerging market nor do I buy low end full featured phones but regardless Microsoft making money of WP or Nokia X, its still their money. From a business perspective this is excellent but I wonder where does it leave WP users like me.
    02-25-2014 01:31 PM
  14. theefman's Avatar
    I would think that's because the idea behind the X range isn't to do with specifically benefiting WP. That's not it's aim as far as I'm aware.

    I posted most of the following in a different thread earlier, but I'll post some of it here as it's relevant:

    Snip:
    I can accept your argument but there are two things to consider: Microsoft services arent actually that good compared to google, are they? Especially in the markets they will be targeting. Is bing good enough to take on google in those markets? Is Skype a real competitor to google hangouts? What is their replacement for youtube (basically none). The only services that may compare favourably are Outlook and OneDrive but everything else is done better by google so unless the expectation is that these users wont every experience competing services the plan is flawed from the beginning.

    There's also the fact that this will basically be a Microsoft phone that does not run their OS and that cant be helpful for WP and what doesnt help WP hurts it. There's also another point I was reminded of on Liveside, MS will still be taking the Asha line over, if only initially so that is 2 other competing platforms for MS to manage apart from WP. That will undoubtedly take away resources from WP and that will definitely not be positive for the platform. When you put it all together I just dont see the reason for going down this path.

    I'm not quite sure really. I do not live in an emerging market nor do I buy low end full featured phones but regardless Microsoft making money of WP or Nokia X, its still their money. From a business perspective this is excellent but I wonder where does it leave WP users like me.
    Well Microsoft makes money from a lot of things but I cant think of one where it requires them to compete against themselves and potentially harm their progress in a sector that is recognised as the fastest growing segment of tech today.
    02-25-2014 01:35 PM
  15. snowmutt's Avatar
    Are you supporting the Trojan horse Elop theory then?
    Too negative. I can't bring myself that far along. Mr. Elop was hired by the Nokia board when they knew full well he was in favor of both scraping Symbian and killing MEEGO. They had too, because the "burning platform memo" was written within months of his hiring. They knew he saw no chance of staying competitive with all the layers of infighting, competing for R&D money, and all the upkeep and updates of the existing software while producing new hardware. He never once waivered.

    He did go to Google about Android, but they wouldn't do anything special for Nokia, so he walked. He approached BlackBerry about using BB07. Microsoft needed Nokia, and cut them a sweet deal.

    I truly feel that at the beggining, Mr. Elop wanted Nokia to regain it's throne as top dog. I do. But, somewhere that cozy relationship with MS and disappointing sales for Nokia WP, all the while Nokia's mapping tech and business solutions sodtware were growing, just resulted in his decision to pursue the nuclear option.

    I just can't shake it, this was manuvered by Mr. Elop. I just wonder if we will ever get the whole story.
    BIGPADDY and rockstarzzz like this.
    02-25-2014 01:43 PM
  16. colinkiama's Avatar
    Too negative. I can't bring myself that far along. Mr. Elop was hired by the Nokia board when they knew full well he was in favor of both scraping Symbian and killing MEEGO. They had too, because the "burning platform memo" was written within months of his hiring. They knew he saw no chance of staying competitive with all the layers of infighting, competing for R&D money, and all the upkeep and updates of the existing software while producing new hardware. He never once waivered.

    He did go to Google about Android, but they wouldn't do anything special for Nokia, so he walked. He approached BlackBerry about using BB07. Microsoft needed Nokia, and cut them a sweet deal.

    I truly feel that at the beggining, Mr. Elop wanted Nokia to regain it's throne as top dog. I do. But, somewhere that cozy relationship with MS and disappointing sales for Nokia WP, all the while Nokia's mapping tech and business solutions sodtware were growing, just resulted in his decision to pursue the nuclear option.

    I just can't shake it, this was manuvered by Mr. Elop. I just wonder if we will ever get the whole story.
    I just don't understand why he killed meego, it didn't even get to develop further.
    02-25-2014 02:03 PM
  17. Reflexx's Avatar
    I'm going to state what I believe the strategy to be for those who feel "baffled" right now.

    1. MS and Nokia will still focus on low end Lumia phones.
    2. Some consumers just won't buy a WP right now, period.
    3. MS still wants those people as customers later down the line
    4. It will be more difficult to convert those customers to WP later if they are fully entrenched in using Google services (since Google doesn't make those available on WP)
    5. If they are using MS services, then it gives MS a chance at converting them later because it removes a large barrier that would have been there if they used a Google approved phone

    There are no guarantees that many will switch in the future, but the chances are definitely higher than f they were already tied into using services that were not available on WP.

    The app disparity should be much smaller by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

    WP will be a more established and familiar OS by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

    The idea is... try to sell them a WP right now. However, if you can't, them at least put them in a position where you can try to get them later.

    Even if a bunch of these people upgrade to a Samsung Android phone next, they will already be invested in MS services. So after that, we have a chance at them again.

    Basically, reduce the barrier. Increase the chance of conversion.

    You can't win everyone over, but what you really don't want if for someone to be open to switching later, but decides not to because it's too much trouble since they're so used to using Google services.
    dznk, BIGPADDY and a5cent like this.
    02-25-2014 02:17 PM
  18. Reflexx's Avatar
    I just don't understand why he killed meego, it didn't even get to develop further.

    No ecosystem.

    It doesn't matter how good the OS is if there isn't a strong supporting ecosystem.
    a5cent and snowmutt like this.
    02-25-2014 02:18 PM
  19. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    I'm going to state what I believe the strategy to be for those who feel "baffled" right now.

    1. MS and Nokia will still focus on low end Lumia phones.
    2. Some consumers just won't buy a WP right now, period.
    3. MS still wants those people as customers later down the line
    4. It will be more difficult to convert those customers to WP later if they are fully entrenched in using Google services (since Google doesn't make those available on WP)
    5. If they are using MS services, then it gives MS a chance at converting them later because it removes a large barrier that would have been there if they used a Google approved phone

    There are no guarantees that many will switch in the future, but the chances are definitely higher than f they were already tied into using services that were not available on WP.

    The app disparity should be much smaller by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

    WP will be a more established and familiar OS by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

    The idea is... try to sell them a WP right now. However, if you can't, them at least put them in a position where you can try to get them later.

    Even if a bunch of these people upgrade to a Samsung Android phone next, they will already be invested in MS services. So after that, we have a chance at them again.

    Basically, reduce the barrier. Increase the chance of conversion.

    You can't win everyone over, but what you really don't want if for someone to be open to switching later, but decides not to because it's too much trouble since they're so used to using Google services.
    I'd buy this story.
    Reflexx and Paul May like this.
    02-25-2014 03:20 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    I'd buy this story.
    I buy it too. Thanks Reflexx and dznk.

    The services angle is the only reasonable explanation I've encountered so far. I'd add that at this point, MS' services being available on every platform is simply a requirement for them to stay relevant. You simply can't spend 14 billion on Skype and then offer it only to 4% of the market (us WP users). That would amount to service-suicide.

    However, I suspect there is more to this Nokia X story and we're just not getting the full picture. I just started watching Elop's Nokia X announcement (I'm a bit late to the party) to see exactly what he did and did not say, as the WPC bloggers and readership apparently aren't on the same page.
    Reflexx and dznk like this.
    02-25-2014 03:28 PM
  21. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Here's a radical theory. Maybe Nokia are making this phone because they think it will sell well and make a profit. Let's not over-think this.
    tgp likes this.
    02-25-2014 03:31 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    Here's a radical theory. Maybe Nokia are making this phone because they think it will sell well and make a profit. Let's not over-think this.
    Okay, but lets not under-think it either. Everything a company does is expected to, at some point, contribute to the bottom line. The question is why this? If they really wanted to make money with these devices, they would be releasing high-end devices too, so there is some strategy behind this... it's not just the money.
    tgp likes this.
    02-25-2014 03:47 PM
  23. tgp's Avatar
    ... it's not just the money.
    I think it's safe to say that it is just the money, but some of it may be coming in later rather than sooner. In other words, long term planning rather than short term quick profit.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-25-2014 03:57 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    I think it's safe to say that it is just the money, but some of it may be coming in later rather than sooner. In other words, long term planning rather than short term quick profit.
    Yep. At least somebody is paying attention . I guess one could also ask what the primary purpose is. That they've restricted themselves to lowest end devices strongly suggests this isn't so much about "money now", but rather about "more money later"... which begs the question how it contributes to reaching that end...
    Reflexx and tgp like this.
    02-25-2014 04:09 PM
  25. anony_mouse's Avatar
    Okay, but lets not under-think it either. Everything a company does is expected to, at some point, contribute to the bottom line. The question is why this? If they really wanted to make money with these devices, they would be releasing high-end devices too, so there is some strategy behind this... it's not just the money.
    My assumption of their strategy is this - Nokia felt (rightly) felt that their Series 40 software had reached the end of the road, so they needed something else for their Asha product line (which is generally claimed to be profitable and so worth continuing with or replacing). For whatever reason, Windows Phone was not deemed to be suitable, so they had to find something else. They could develop from scratch, but that would be silly when decent open source options are available, so they chose to use Android as a base. From Nokia's point of view, I'm not sure it has much to do with Windows Phone.

    As Microsoft are spending several billion USD on Nokia's phone business, I assume they hope to make some money as well. Tthe strategy seems plausible from the 'selling some phones' point of view, so they did not object. And maybe they can make some story about it 'promoting WP', although as we've seen in this thread, that's not so easy.

    As I say, just my assumption. :-)
    a5cent likes this.
    02-25-2014 04:12 PM
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