Nokia uses Android against Google.

colinkiama

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Too negative. I can't bring myself that far along. Mr. Elop was hired by the Nokia board when they knew full well he was in favor of both scraping Symbian and killing MEEGO. They had too, because the "burning platform memo" was written within months of his hiring. They knew he saw no chance of staying competitive with all the layers of infighting, competing for R&D money, and all the upkeep and updates of the existing software while producing new hardware. He never once waivered.

He did go to Google about Android, but they wouldn't do anything special for Nokia, so he walked. He approached BlackBerry about using BB07. Microsoft needed Nokia, and cut them a sweet deal.

I truly feel that at the beggining, Mr. Elop wanted Nokia to regain it's throne as top dog. I do. But, somewhere that cozy relationship with MS and disappointing sales for Nokia WP, all the while Nokia's mapping tech and business solutions sodtware were growing, just resulted in his decision to pursue the nuclear option.

I just can't shake it, this was manuvered by Mr. Elop. I just wonder if we will ever get the whole story.
I just don't understand why he killed meego, it didn't even get to develop further.
 

Reflexx

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I'm going to state what I believe the strategy to be for those who feel "baffled" right now.

1. MS and Nokia will still focus on low end Lumia phones.
2. Some consumers just won't buy a WP right now, period.
3. MS still wants those people as customers later down the line
4. It will be more difficult to convert those customers to WP later if they are fully entrenched in using Google services (since Google doesn't make those available on WP)
5. If they are using MS services, then it gives MS a chance at converting them later because it removes a large barrier that would have been there if they used a Google approved phone

There are no guarantees that many will switch in the future, but the chances are definitely higher than f they were already tied into using services that were not available on WP.

The app disparity should be much smaller by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

WP will be a more established and familiar OS by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

The idea is... try to sell them a WP right now. However, if you can't, them at least put them in a position where you can try to get them later.

Even if a bunch of these people upgrade to a Samsung Android phone next, they will already be invested in MS services. So after that, we have a chance at them again.

Basically, reduce the barrier. Increase the chance of conversion.

You can't win everyone over, but what you really don't want if for someone to be open to switching later, but decides not to because it's too much trouble since they're so used to using Google services.
 

rockstarzzz

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I'm going to state what I believe the strategy to be for those who feel "baffled" right now.

1. MS and Nokia will still focus on low end Lumia phones.
2. Some consumers just won't buy a WP right now, period.
3. MS still wants those people as customers later down the line
4. It will be more difficult to convert those customers to WP later if they are fully entrenched in using Google services (since Google doesn't make those available on WP)
5. If they are using MS services, then it gives MS a chance at converting them later because it removes a large barrier that would have been there if they used a Google approved phone

There are no guarantees that many will switch in the future, but the chances are definitely higher than f they were already tied into using services that were not available on WP.

The app disparity should be much smaller by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

WP will be a more established and familiar OS by the time these people are ready to upgrade.

The idea is... try to sell them a WP right now. However, if you can't, them at least put them in a position where you can try to get them later.

Even if a bunch of these people upgrade to a Samsung Android phone next, they will already be invested in MS services. So after that, we have a chance at them again.

Basically, reduce the barrier. Increase the chance of conversion.

You can't win everyone over, but what you really don't want if for someone to be open to switching later, but decides not to because it's too much trouble since they're so used to using Google services.

I'd buy this story.
 

a5cent

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I'd buy this story.

I buy it too. Thanks Reflexx and dznk.

The services angle is the only reasonable explanation I've encountered so far. I'd add that at this point, MS' services being available on every platform is simply a requirement for them to stay relevant. You simply can't spend 14 billion on Skype and then offer it only to 4% of the market (us WP users). That would amount to service-suicide.

However, I suspect there is more to this Nokia X story and we're just not getting the full picture. I just started watching Elop's Nokia X announcement (I'm a bit late to the party) to see exactly what he did and did not say, as the WPC bloggers and readership apparently aren't on the same page.
 

anony_mouse

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Here's a radical theory. Maybe Nokia are making this phone because they think it will sell well and make a profit. Let's not over-think this.
 

a5cent

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Here's a radical theory. Maybe Nokia are making this phone because they think it will sell well and make a profit. Let's not over-think this.

Okay, but lets not under-think it either. :wink: Everything a company does is expected to, at some point, contribute to the bottom line. The question is why this? If they really wanted to make money with these devices, they would be releasing high-end devices too, so there is some strategy behind this... it's not just the money.
 

a5cent

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I think it's safe to say that it is just the money, but some of it may be coming in later rather than sooner. In other words, long term planning rather than short term quick profit.

Yep. At least somebody is paying attention :wink:. I guess one could also ask what the primary purpose is. That they've restricted themselves to lowest end devices strongly suggests this isn't so much about "money now", but rather about "more money later"... which begs the question how it contributes to reaching that end...
 

anony_mouse

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Okay, but lets not under-think it either. :wink: Everything a company does is expected to, at some point, contribute to the bottom line. The question is why this? If they really wanted to make money with these devices, they would be releasing high-end devices too, so there is some strategy behind this... it's not just the money.

My assumption of their strategy is this - Nokia felt (rightly) felt that their Series 40 software had reached the end of the road, so they needed something else for their Asha product line (which is generally claimed to be profitable and so worth continuing with or replacing). For whatever reason, Windows Phone was not deemed to be suitable, so they had to find something else. They could develop from scratch, but that would be silly when decent open source options are available, so they chose to use Android as a base. From Nokia's point of view, I'm not sure it has much to do with Windows Phone.

As Microsoft are spending several billion USD on Nokia's phone business, I assume they hope to make some money as well. Tthe strategy seems plausible from the 'selling some phones' point of view, so they did not object. And maybe they can make some story about it 'promoting WP', although as we've seen in this thread, that's not so easy.

As I say, just my assumption. :)
 

dznk

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I really do think Microsoft know exactly what's going on here and the more I look at it, the more I see this as a Services move. It still feels strange though. Just a few years ago, if you were to say Microsoft would bring nearly all of their programs onto their two rival platforms, sometimes being introduced before and updated more frequently than their very own platform in the same sector, you'd have been laughed at.

Well we now have OneDrive, Skype, Outlook.com app, Bing etc all on iOS and Android. Microsoft simply would not have done this before. In fact iOS users are supposedly getting the latest Office developed specifically for that platform and more than likely before the Metro version of Office hits it's own Windows 8.1/RT. Sounds crazy, but again, if it boosts their user base, it's a win for them, no matter how strange it looks on the outside.

Do remember Microsoft are now a Devices and Services company. And those Services are cross platform, whether we like it or not. Microsoft used to dominate with the PC, but now they've been caught napping in the mobile space, they are literally changing how their company operates (and they've even said this). This Android phone stuff appears to be part of this plan. No longer do Microsoft win by having the largest user base on their OS. They need to win with users using their Services because not everyone is using their OS's now.

Blackberry have realised this as well. Why are they making BBM available on nearly all mobile platforms? Because their OS is not strong enough anymore. They need to move forward by getting large numbers of people using their product, in this case BBM.

Have a quick read of Microsoft's top spokesman guy Frank Shaw about the Nokia X range here. Two quotes I find interesting:

Second, we’re pleased to see Microsoft services like Skype, OneDrive and Outlook.com being introduced on these devices. This provides the opportunity to bring millions of people, particularly in growth markets, into the Microsoft family.

It is a fascinating time in the industry today. The rate of improvements in devices, the breadth of services offered, the way consumers and businesses are using devices of all shapes and sizes to do more

Amazing how things have changed in the last few years.
 

anony_mouse

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As I asked before, aren't all of these services already available on Android? Nokia/MS don't need to make a phone for that. I think the X line is to maintain a presence in the low end market. That is profitable in itself. It might one day benefit WP or it might not, and it might benefit MS services or it might not, but I don't see that as the primary purpose.
 

MikeSo

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Nokia wants a low-end device with MS services on it. The 520 is cheap but not very profitable. Slap a proprietary Android WP-ripoff on a cheap plastic slab (because they can't go full Android due to MS). Isn't it this simple?
 

Reflexx

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My assumption of their strategy is this - Nokia felt (rightly) felt that their Series 40 software had reached the end of the road, so they needed something else for their Asha product line (which is generally claimed to be profitable and so worth continuing with or replacing). For whatever reason, Windows Phone was not deemed to be suitable, so they had to find something else. They could develop from scratch, but that would be silly when decent open source options are available, so they chose to use Android as a base. From Nokia's point of view, I'm not sure it has much to do with Windows Phone.

As Microsoft are spending several billion USD on Nokia's phone business, I assume they hope to make some money as well. Tthe strategy seems plausible from the 'selling some phones' point of view, so they did not object. And maybe they can make some story about it 'promoting WP', although as we've seen in this thread, that's not so easy.

As I say, just my assumption. :)

That sounds like a reasonable assumption.

Asha did need to be refreshed. Having it use Android was probably the easiest way.

Nokia (even if MS didn't buy them) would still want to steer people to Lumias in the long term. That is why they probably made it a forked version.

If you are mainly a Nokia fan, you'll see the product line as these X phones at the bottom, and then even the same priced Lumia ranked as a higher level phone. Eventually you might just say, "Why should I get another X phone when I can get the Lumia for the same price? I'm already comfortable with the ecosystem. WP has grown already. It's not as risky anymore."
 

Reflexx

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As I asked before, aren't all of these services already available on Android? Nokia/MS don't need to make a phone for that. I think the X line is to maintain a presence in the low end market. That is profitable in itself. It might one day benefit WP or it might not, and it might benefit MS services or it might not, but I don't see that as the primary purpose.

They are available on regular Google Android. But if a consumer buys Google Android they may opt to use Google's services instead. That greatly reduces the chance that they would want to upgrade to a WP later because they'd have to change all their services.
 

a5cent

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Okay, I'm just adding some context

I would think that's because the idea behind the X range isn't to do with specifically benefiting WP. That's not it's aim as far as I'm aware.

At MWC Elop did in fact state: "By using Microsoft's services, Nokia X becomes a feeder system for Lumia" (video at 31:55)

I assume this is the source for the many articles proclaiming that Nokia X is (or should be) a stepping stone onto WP. I don't buy into the stepping stone argument any more than you do, but the CEO of Nokia has explicitly stated that the X range should benefit WP.

Beyond that, Elop provided two other reasons for this device's existence:

They should have waited until WP8.1 is released with lower specs and on-screen nav buttons and let Nokia and OEM's bring out even cheaper devices than the 520 but with them obviously running WP.

Elop did explicitly state that: "the Nokia X's price point will always trend below that of WP".

However, all the usual suspects are focusing only on the bill of materials. Their argument is that the cost difference between a Snapdragon 200 based Lumia and a Snapdragon 200 based Nokia X is so small, that it in no way justifies the existence of a separate family of smartphones. That is probably true. Nevertheless, they are ignoring the costs for the OS. Whether MS factors those into the sales price is irrelevant, as those costs exist either way.

The cost comparison to Android is a lot more interesting. MS is unlikely to take Nokia (themselves) to court over IP licensing, meaning they are truly the only OEM that gets AOSP for absolutely nothing. That is easily $5 right there. Compared to a fully licensed/certified Android device, the savings increase further. In the $60 price range, where these devices will soon be headed, and in countries where monthly take home pay is around $300, $6 or $7 is a lot of money. I suspect this allows MS to easily undercut the similarly spec'ed android competition, by an amount that is significant in developing nations.

What would happen if MS became the Android OEM that could offer the best "bang for your buck" across all growth markets... (I'm not saying this will happen, I'm still sceptical about the "bang" part)

The X range is really there to push Microsoft's services (Skype, OneDrive, Bing etc) to people who would have otherwise bought some other low end Android device and would have probably not been presented with these services.

Pretty much exactly what Elop said.

For now, the above quotes (one paraphrased) represent the only official information we've got.

My take:

  1. They don't believe the stepping stone argument themselves.
  2. MS could be in a position to undercut every last low-end Android OEM out there.
  3. I believe that the services angle plays a role, but Nokia isn't letting on to everything (the fact that all of MS' services are already on Android is just one indicator).
If the Nokia X sells reasonably well and the app stores actually contain what people expect, I predict we will see mid-range Nokia X phones priced above the Lumia 520 within 9 months.
 

crystal_planet

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If the Nokia X sells reasonably well and the app stores actually contain what people expect, I predict we will see mid-range Nokia X phones priced above the Lumia 520 within 9 months.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but....

Then what? Another mid range X model because, it's nice to have a choice doncha know. And maybe a higher end model down the road?

So what would be the end game? Forgo WP entirely for an X device? - the specs of the Lumia, with the ecosystem of Android?
Lumia would get buried.
 

Paul May

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Personally I think Nokia/MS are being smart here. They know they can't capture everyone with the devices they have now, but adding to their lineup with android devices that emerging markets can buy into and diversifying your portfolio to make extra money. The 520 has been the biggest selling WP in the world, imagine replicating that with an android device as well. It is basically using the competitions own software against them to make more money. Google won't make a dime on these phones since all the services are stripped out and maybe MS will replace it with similar bing services they can then use to sell and track android users.
 

dznk

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As I asked before, aren't all of these services already available on Android? Nokia/MS don't need to make a phone for that. I think the X line is to maintain a presence in the low end market. That is profitable in itself. It might one day benefit WP or it might not, and it might benefit MS services or it might not, but I don't see that as the primary purpose.
You're correct that these Microsoft services are already available for current Android phones. However, when you purchase any Android phone currently available, those services are not 'in your face' so to speak. Microsoft I believe, want people to buy these X devices so their services are almost literally spoon fed to you when you switch on the phone. This will always get some of those users to use your services even if they've never heard of them before.


At MWC Elop did in fact state: "By using Microsoft's services, Nokia X becomes a feeder system for Lumia" (video at 31:55)

I assume this is the source for the many articles proclaiming that Nokia X is (or should be) a stepping stone onto WP. I don't buy into the stepping stone argument any more than you do, but the CEO of Nokia has explicitly stated that the X range should benefit WP.
Well spotted. Thanks for that. I wondered where some people were getting it from, I watched it live but didn't pick up on that particular bit then. I can only presume he believes that people using Microsoft services on those X phones + having an interface similar to WP, will eventually lead them onto WP. Hmmm, still not sure my self.


My take:

  1. They don't believe the stepping stone argument themselves.
  2. MS could be in a position to undercut every last low-end Android OEM out there.
  3. I believe that the services angle plays a role, but Nokia isn't letting on to everything (the fact that all of MS' services are already on Android is just one indicator).
If the Nokia X sells reasonably well and the app stores actually contain what people expect, I predict we will see mid-range Nokia X phones priced above the Lumia 520 within 9 months.
Good points. The last point on it encroaching into the Lumia priced area, which would mean a half decent Android phone (not the real budget ones they've just announced) has me concerned a little bit. They're going to have to watch that line so they don't cross it. If they do, and you can pickup an X phone, running Android, that is either priced above a low end Lumia, or has higher specs than the low end Lumias, is where I can see major problems starting for WP.

As you mentioned a bit above, they've said "the Nokia X's price point will always trend below that of WP". They're going to need to keep to that, otherwise WP is in danger of being swallowed up by some of the X range. At the moment, even though I'm still not keen on them doing Android in the first place, but I see how they have reasons to do it, I don't think it will affect WP as it is at the moment.

The other thing what I think will happen and it has already been mentioned by some others, is that I can see the Asha line being retired. I would think it will end up being the basic Nokia 220 type models at the bottom end, then the X range phones, then the Lumia's. You quite rightly picked up on the licensing fees that Microsoft won't charge themselves for Android, so the X range is surely going to be cheaper and better than Asha (development costs for Asha and more apps on Android), so we may find that the Asha line might simply not be needed in the near future.
 

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