09-29-2017 11:56 AM
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  1. pankaj981's Avatar
    Don't get me wrong, they're quite capable if the right apps are added. But out of the box, they're iPods with a phone app.
    Isn't that the case with all current smartphones? Some come with productive apps (read bloatware) preinstalled. Apps make a smartphone...a smartphone.
    04-23-2017 01:47 PM
  2. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Isn't that the case with all current smartphones? Some come with productive apps (read bloatware) preinstalled. Apps make a smartphone...a smartphone.
    Hardly.

    If you have an iPhone and someone sends you a Word doc or Excel spreadsheet to review and make corrections, you're outta gas unless you have downloaded an appropriate editing app. Most Androids with the "bloatware" you speak of have some form of doc editing built in. Samsung has Office onboard and obviously so does Windows.

    That's only one example. There are many more I could list but that serves no purpose. The iPhone is a very capable device for most users as I've stated many times but the notion that adding apps to accomplish what others do natively is biting Apple's bait. They have made a mint by convincing users (aka suckers) that you need to have all these wonderful apps and they should be commended for their marketing prowess. "There's an app for that" was sheer genius. You seem to believe it too.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    TgeekB, Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    04-23-2017 05:26 PM
  3. pankaj981's Avatar
    "There's an app for that" was sheer genius. You seem to believe it too.
    Well yeah, I do believe it because that's what reality is today. W10M or Windows itself doesn't have native Office integration anymore. So doesn't Samsung or any Android. Google Docs or Sheets that are natively bundled with Pixel/Nexus devices are again standalone apps.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-23-2017 07:13 PM
  4. rollindice's Avatar
    Haven't switched and won't ever,loving my Lumia 950 XL
    TgeekB and aximtreo like this.
    04-23-2017 07:22 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Isn't that the case with all current smartphones? Some come with productive apps (read bloatware) preinstalled. Apps make a smartphone...a smartphone.
    That certainly is what they want you to believe and buy into. That's how they make their money, by hooking you into their ecosystem.

    It reminds me of automobiles. They don't make the most money on the vehicle, they make it on the extras. The heated leather seats, the infotainment system, etc. Just watch car commercials. They can't talk about getting you from point A to B, because any car can do that. They sell you on the extras. Now I'm not saying apps or extras on cars aren't useful or fun, just that they're not necessary. I believe what makes a smartphone is PIM functions that keep you connected while mobile. Or we can believe the commercials and keep giving them more money.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    aximtreo likes this.
    04-23-2017 07:35 PM
  6. pankaj981's Avatar
    That certainly is what they want you to believe and buy into. That's how they make their money, by hooking you into their ecosystem.

    It reminds me of automobiles. They don't make the most money on the vehicle, they make it on the extras. The heated leather seats, the infotainment system, etc. Just watch car commercials. They can't talk about getting you from point A to B, because any car can do that. They sell you on the extras. Now I'm not saying apps or extras on cars aren't useful or fun, just that they're not necessary. I believe what makes a smartphone is PIM functions that keep you connected while mobile. Or we can believe the commercials and keep giving them more money.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    Okay so what do you think a smartphone should at least let you do natively minus any apps?
    Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    04-23-2017 07:49 PM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    Okay so what do you think a smartphone should at least let you do natively minus any apps?
    I can only speak for myself.
    Email, text, calendar, browser, tasks, maps, calls, etc.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-23-2017 08:02 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Well yeah, I do believe it because that's what reality is today. W10M or Windows itself doesn't have native Office integration anymore. So doesn't Samsung or any Android. Google Docs or Sheets that are natively bundled with Pixel/Nexus devices are again standalone apps.
    Oh? I start a Word doc on my phone and I can pick up where I left off on my PC. I've never used Google Docs or Sheets so I won't comment but I assume they have editing capability. Either way, they come as standard and whether they're standalone or not is irrelevant.

    My point has been about iOS since the get go. Apple has managed to convince users that iPhones and iPads are capable of anything under the sun because there are apps for everything.......for a price. For as much as they charge for their gadgets, they are obscenely barren out of the box. Automatic, A/C and power windows have been standard equipment on all but a few econoboxes. Apple still sells with 5-speeds and crank windows.
    aximtreo likes this.
    04-23-2017 08:02 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Okay so what do you think a smartphone should at least let you do natively minus any apps?
    Besides PIM, I expect full email capability, fully-featured document handling, full cloud integration, a robust file management system, user-defined imaging, mapping with offline maps and self-contained music management without the need for a PC.

    Windows 10 Mobile checks every one of those boxes, some high end Androids do too. Apple misses on 6 of the 8.
    TgeekB and aximtreo like this.
    04-23-2017 08:13 PM
  10. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Besides PIM, I expect full email capability, fully-featured document handling, full cloud integration, a robust file management system, user-defined imaging, mapping with offline maps and self-contained music management without the need for a PC.

    Windows 10 Mobile checks every one of those boxes, some high end Androids do too. Apple misses on 6 of the 8.
    Android has all of those features.
    pankaj981 and Guytronic like this.
    04-23-2017 11:31 PM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Android has all of those features.
    I did say some. Should've said most. My Priv didn't have a file manager, I had to get ESFile Manager.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    04-23-2017 11:42 PM
  12. pankaj981's Avatar
    I can only speak for myself.
    Email, text, calendar, browser, tasks, maps, calls, etc.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    WM/Android/iOS all support it natively.
    Guytronic, libra89 and xandros9 like this.
    04-24-2017 12:14 AM
  13. libra89's Avatar
    It's crazy that it really comes down to the right Android.
    Generally anyway.

    The Pixel's version of it is nice for me even though I do wish it had some little things.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    04-24-2017 04:16 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    WM/Android/iOS all support it natively.
    I have a W10 laptop, a SP4, and an Idol 4s so all work brilliantly together. I've used Android and, while I enjoyed it, why not have a fluid experience across all devices?

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    04-24-2017 04:19 PM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I think this is one of those things where everyone has to question if the trade off works for them or not. For you, it works well and I get the appeal. For some of us (like me), that isn't possible anyway so it makes the most sense to go with the device that has the smallest trade off.
    What do you consider a tradeoff? For me, I want the factory-shipped apps to come with full functionality built-in. Having to download apps to make your phone work properly makes no sense to me. We complain about bloatware but if the stock apps are garbage then the OS itself is bloatware. Am I making any sense here? Is it too much to ask that my $700 iPhone be able to attach anything other than a picture to an email? Maybe I'm sending my insurance company a series of photos of a wrecked car (Zero accidents in 35+ years) and a PDF repair estimate along with a Word letter from my attorney. As Ron White would say "Can't do it. Not with this equipment".


    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    libra89 likes this.
    04-24-2017 04:54 PM
  16. libra89's Avatar
    What do you consider a tradeoff? For me, I want the factory-shipped apps to come with full functionality built-in. Having to download apps to make your phone work properly makes no sense to me. We complain about bloatware but if the stock apps are garbage then the OS itself is bloatware. Am I making any sense here? Is it too much to ask that my $700 iPhone be able to attach anything other than a picture to an email? Maybe I'm sending my insurance company a series of photos of a wrecked car (Zero accidents in 35+ years) and a PDF repair estimate along with a Word letter from my attorney. As Ron White would say "Can't do it. Not with this equipment".


    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    (First, I apologize for deleting my comment, that's totally my fault. Not sure why I did. I think I was distracted.)

    To me, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like that would just be an extra step to download apps for things that should be straight forward and already there. I remember your point about the lack of a file manager on iOS and that's a valid point. For my usage, I don't miss not having one, it's more like "oh I didn't realize this was the case" and it's not even relevant.

    As for tradeoffs:
    -For Windows 10 Mobile, the only smaller phone I would consider has poor battery life. The 950 still sucks on the battery life end even though the cameras are nice (and it's a little tall and wide).
    -For iOS, lack of customization gets to me after a while but the size, battery life (and main camera) are nice.
    -For Android (using my Pixel as the reference point), it lacks a silent mode but the size is decently small and cameras are great. Battery life is solid.

    I'm indifferent about the software because I generally can do whatever I need to do in whatever one I use. Windows requires more work though with using workarounds in place of apps. At the moment, the Pixel has the smallest tradeoff.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    04-24-2017 07:54 PM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    (First, I apologize for deleting my comment, that's totally my fault. Not sure why I did. I think I was distracted.)

    To me, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like that would just be an extra step to download apps for things that should be straight forward and already there. I remember your point about the lack of a file manager on iOS and that's a valid point. For my usage, I don't miss not having one, it's more like "oh I didn't realize this was the case" and it's not even relevant.

    As for tradeoffs:
    -For Windows 10 Mobile, the only smaller phone I would consider has poor battery life. The 950 still sucks on the battery life end even though the cameras are nice (and it's a little tall and wide).
    -For iOS, lack of customization gets to me after a while but the size, battery life (and main camera) are nice.
    -For Android (using my Pixel as the reference point), it lacks a silent mode but the size is decently small and cameras are great. Battery life is solid.

    I'm indifferent about the software because I generally can do whatever I need to do in whatever one I use. Windows requires more work though with using workarounds in place of apps. At the moment, the Pixel has the smallest tradeoff.
    There is no question that Android offers the most flexibility in both devices and customization. I would venture to say it offers more bang for the buck than any OS out there. But I don't know that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I would love to recommend this G5 I'm typing on right now. It's a good size, the camera is fantastic and the performance is really good. But unless you have a power supply nearby, you're not going to be happy for long.
    libra89 likes this.
    04-24-2017 08:44 PM
  18. libra89's Avatar
    There is no question that Android offers the most flexibility in both devices and customization. I would venture to say it offers more bang for the buck than any OS out there. But I don't know that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I would love to recommend this G5 I'm typing on right now. It's a good size, the camera is fantastic and the performance is really good. But unless you have a power supply nearby, you're not going to be happy for long.
    You're absolutely right. It is really individual to how Android works or might not work for someone.

    I no longer have patience or the desire to always have a charger on hand. With having the Pixel, I realized that the length and width of a phone both matter to me since I prefer to use my phones one handed. One handed is the only way I really use my phones. Idealistically, I'm all about the simplicity of the Windows OS but the lack of phones that are small and have good battery life is not worth it for me to use as a main phone.
    04-24-2017 08:54 PM
  19. meattray's Avatar
    I feel like mobile devices have maybe been caught in the arms race of the sharpest screens and fastest processors that battery life has never really improved. I would personally take a bit of a hit on the screen (I'm not going to really notice it that much anyways) to have a battery that easily lasts a couple of days.
    libra89, TgeekB, pankaj981 and 3 others like this.
    04-24-2017 08:57 PM
  20. libra89's Avatar
    I feel like mobile devices have maybe been caught in the arms race of the sharpest screens and fastest processors that battery life has never really improved. I would personally take a bit of a hit on the screen (I'm not going to really notice it that much anyways) to have a battery that easily lasts a couple of days.
    Agreed! If there was a way to scale down the resolution on the 950, that would make a big improvement on battery life there.
    04-24-2017 09:00 PM
  21. meattray's Avatar
    Agreed! If there was a way to scale down the resolution on the 950, that would make a big improvement on battery life there.
    I may not have the same usage as a lot of people but I just don't need that high of a resolution for my day to day use on a phone. Maybe people playing games and watching a tonnnn of videos would want otherwise but id rather have the battery life.
    libra89, pankaj981 and MSFTisMIA like this.
    04-24-2017 09:11 PM
  22. pankaj981's Avatar
    I have a W10 laptop, a SP4, and an Idol 4s so all work brilliantly together. I've used Android and, while I enjoyed it, why not have a fluid experience across all devices?
    I start a Word doc on my phone and I can pick up where I left off on my PC.
    You do realize Microsoft wants you to buy their latest Office Suite (a paid suite of apps) in order to achieve this.
    Besides PIM, I expect full email capability, fully-featured document handling, full cloud integration, a robust file management system, user-defined imaging, mapping with offline maps and self-contained music management without the need for a PC.

    Windows 10 Mobile checks every one of those boxes, some high end Androids do too. Apple misses on 6 of the 8.
    Since this is all about apps lets check..

    • PIM (iOS - 1/1, Android - 1/1, WM/WP - 1/1 & 1/1)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes

    • Email (iOS - 2/2, Android - 2/2, WM/WP - 2/2 & 1/2)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/No (did not support saving attachments to file system)

    • Document management (iOS - 2/3, Android - 3/3, WM/WP - 2/3 & 2/3)
      • iOS - No but can be done through MS Word
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - No, MS Word has to be downloaded/Yes

    • Cloud integration (iOS - 3/4, Android - 4/4, WM/WP - 3/4 & 3/4)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • User defined imaging (iOS - 4/5, Android - 5/5, WM/WP - 4/5 & 4/5)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • Mapping (iOS - 5/6, Android - 6/6, WM/WP - 5/6 & 5/6)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • Music Management (iOS - 6/7, Android - 7/7, WM/WP - 6/7 & 6/7)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes


    So in the end, on paper iOS and WM/WP look identical. From the above list, iOS ticks 6/7 on your basic smartphone requirements. The lacking features can be achieved using an App, same goes for WM/WP.

    Did I miss anything from your basic list of features a smartphone should have? Probably not.
    libra89 likes this.
    04-24-2017 09:22 PM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    You do realize Microsoft wants you to buy their latest Office Suite (a paid suite of apps) in order to achieve this.


    Since this is all about apps lets check..

    • PIM (iOS - 1/1, Android - 1/1, WM/WP - 1/1 & 1/1)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes

    • Email (iOS - 2/2, Android - 2/2, WM/WP - 2/2 & 1/2)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/No (did not support saving attachments to file system)

    • Document management (iOS - 2/3, Android - 3/3, WM/WP - 2/3 & 2/3)
      • iOS - No but can be done through MS Word
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - No, MS Word has to be downloaded/Yes

    • Cloud integration (iOS - 3/4, Android - 4/4, WM/WP - 3/4 & 3/4)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • User defined imaging (iOS - 4/5, Android - 5/5, WM/WP - 4/5 & 4/5)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • Mapping (iOS - 5/6, Android - 6/6, WM/WP - 5/6 & 5/6)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes

    • Music Management (iOS - 6/7, Android - 7/7, WM/WP - 6/7 & 6/7)
      • iOS - Yes
      • Android - Yes
      • WM/WP - Yes/Yes


    So in the end, on paper iOS and WM/WP look identical. From the above list, iOS ticks 6/7 on your basic smartphone requirements. The lacking features can be achieved using an App, same goes for WM/WP.

    Did I miss anything from your basic list of features a smartphone should have? Probably not.
    Reading comprehension is not at work here. Yes, Apple has a mail client. But it's no better than that of a feature phone from 2004. Only 1 picture at a time can be attached, might as well use MMS. At present there are NO apps available to open mime attachments (email). None, zero, zip, nada. I mentioned offline map capability, you conveniently left that out. I mentioned access to music without the need for a PC, you left that out. I mentioned file management, you introduced an app. It's natively not possible without an additional app. User-defined imaging? No way to set white balance, shutter speed, etc. Shall I go on? Your deflection skills are quite sharp as you introduced Windows Phone. Why didn't you include WinMo which smokes all 3 with even more features baked in such as native Drive Mapping, network file sharing, Remote Desktop, offline Office apps and a real Outlook experience?




    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-24-2017 09:53 PM
  24. pankaj981's Avatar
    I feel like mobile devices have maybe been caught in the arms race of the sharpest screens and fastest processors that battery life has never really improved. I would personally take a bit of a hit on the screen (I'm not going to really notice it that much anyways) to have a battery that easily lasts a couple of days.
    This is where some devices actually set that balance pretty well. Example the OP3T and the Moto Z series.
    libra89 likes this.
    04-24-2017 09:53 PM
  25. meattray's Avatar
    This is where some devices actually set that balance pretty well. Example the OP3T and the Moto Z series.
    Yeah I agree some are doing alright with this but I'd love to go back to having a device I can use heavily and not have to charge every day. Making it through the day shouldn't be the standard, it should be the bare minimum in your low end devices.
    pankaj981 and libra89 like this.
    04-24-2017 09:58 PM
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