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  1. draco76x's Avatar
    ProShot seems faster on my L1020, good job!!

    Can't wait to see what ProShot can do when upgraded to Windows 10.
    04-09-2015 03:01 AM
  2. tonykk's Avatar
    Hi RiseUpGames,

    I'd like to add to Minh Dinh's post regarding ProShot crashing on the 730. The exact same thing happens on the 735, reproducible via the same steps and avoided with the same workarounds. I think they are the same hardware other than dual sim vs LTE, but if it helps in any way.

    Cheers
    RiseUpGames likes this.
    04-22-2015 05:53 AM
  3. greedo_greedy's Avatar
    RiseUpGames, check out my post, I made a comparison of your app with 3 other apps.
    http://forums.windowscentral.com/nok...omparison.html
    gpobernardo and RiseUpGames like this.
    04-24-2015 06:10 AM
  4. Onslaughta's Avatar
    Hey rise up, can you tell me what features the app has on a lumia 535?
    04-30-2015 06:30 PM
  5. RiseUpGames's Avatar
    Hey rise up, can you tell me what features the app has on a lumia 535?
    Everything should work (manual focus, shutter, etc). I don't have that phone, but you can download the free trial on the store and check it out :)
    gpobernardo likes this.
    04-30-2015 07:53 PM
  6. Onslaughta's Avatar
    Ok brilliant, I used to have it on a 620 but am thinking of coming back to wp again as the 535 is really cheap here atm
    05-01-2015 02:47 PM
  7. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Just got my L1020 back from repair.

    With Denim installed and the latest version of ProShot, I can confirm that ProShot does launch a bit faster now. Testing shows a consistent less than 3 seconds (around 2.8 seconds) start-up time. This is indeed a bit faster than the previous 3.25-second start-up time.

    However, I must note that the Lumia Camera start up time has also improved a bit. From a pre-Denim 3.25 seconds, it now launches in exactly 3 seconds.

    Proshot now, however, does launch a bit faster than Lumia Camera most of the time.

    As for the new interface, the main layout hasn't changed much but it definitely looks cleaner now. I also like the added sharpness feature (or did I just miss this in the older app versions?). As I noted before, Lumia Camera takes "sharper" photos than ProShot at the same camera settings (ISO, exposure value, shutter speed) but sharper tends to become more grainy at low light - whereas ProShot takes softer images but with less grain at low light. Now with the sharpness control, one can take sharper photos than what Lumia Camera takes, but with the expense of tending to have more grain.

    Overall, nice work! It has been, and may always be, one of the three Camera Apps that I will be using (the third being the default Microsoft Camera).
    RiseUpGames likes this.
    05-05-2015 03:17 PM
  8. RiseUpGames's Avatar
    Just got my L1020 back from repair.

    With Denim installed and the latest version of ProShot, I can confirm that ProShot does launch a bit faster now. Testing shows a consistent less than 3 seconds (around 2.8 seconds) start-up time. This is indeed a bit faster than the previous 3.25-second start-up time.

    However, I must note that the Lumia Camera start up time has also improved a bit. From a pre-Denim 3.25 seconds, it now launches in exactly 3 seconds.

    Proshot now, however, does launch a bit faster than Lumia Camera most of the time.

    As for the new interface, the main layout hasn't changed much but it definitely looks cleaner now. I also like the added sharpness feature (or did I just miss this in the older app versions?). As I noted before, Lumia Camera takes "sharper" photos than ProShot at the same camera settings (ISO, exposure value, shutter speed) but sharper tends to become more grainy at low light - whereas ProShot takes softer images but with less grain at low light. Now with the sharpness control, one can take sharper photos than what Lumia Camera takes, but with the expense of tending to have more grain.

    Overall, nice work! It has been, and may always be, one of the three Camera Apps that I will be using (the third being the default Microsoft Camera).
    Thank you for testing the speed! Those are similar numbers to what I was seeing. I'm confident I can it under 2 seconds with the W10 rewrite :)

    Side note on what's next: Build 2015 had a lot of great info on W10, but their camera API is unfortunately still not complete. There's no ETA on when it will be finished, but from what they've shown, it's going to be great for all of us. The different camera APIs on different platforms all have their strengths and weaknesses, but it's looking like Microsoft's new API is going to let me build exactly what I have in mind for the next generation of ProShot.
    05-05-2015 06:47 PM
  9. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Full-resolution camera launch under two seconds for the L1020? That would be a treat!


    Update: App is crashing while trying to save a photo taken at maximum zoom, 34MP (16:9), level 5 saturation and level 2 sharpness.
    Last edited by gpobernardo; 05-06-2015 at 05:05 AM.
    05-06-2015 02:45 AM
  10. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Here's a quick comparison of Microsoft Camera, Lumia Camera and ProShot, using the L1020 with the Denim update. The focus of the comparison is the level of detail at high levels of magnification or digital zoom. All shots were taken at ISO-100 (to ensure constant grain), all other settings were at default values. Further enlargement was through the Zoom app.

    This is the un-zoomed photo taken with Lumia Camera for perspective (the crane is around 50 meters from my the phone). The criterion for comparison is the legibility of the numbers on the indicated target.
    sozoom_635665481541353606.jpg

    Microsoft Camera: with live digital zoom, enlarged
    wp_ss_20150507_0008.png

    Lumia Camera: no live digital zoom, enlarged
    wp_ss_20150507_0004.png

    ProShot: with live digital zoom, enlarged
    wp_ss_20150507_0005.png

    ProShot: no live digital zoom, enlarged
    wp_ss_20150507_0006.png

    Summary:
    • Among the three, Microsoft Camera gave the brightest and sharpest image. The higher brightness level of Microsoft Camera was due to the fact that it was only "metering" a small portion of the entire field of vision as a result of live digital zooming.
    • Lumia Camera gave a darker image than Microsoft Camera, since Lumia Camera was metering the entire field of vision of the camera (without digital zoom). However, Lumia Camera was able to capture the numbers on the target.
    • Among the apps, ProShot wasn't able to deliver the same level of detail, both for the shot with live digital zoom and for the shot without digital zoom. The brightness level is also similar to that of Lumia Camera, which suggests that ProShot still meters the entire field of vision whether or not digital zoom is being performed; this seems consistent with the pixelation that occurs in ProShot when zooming in, compared with Microsoft Camera where no pixelation occurs while zooming in.
    • Consistent with older findings, ProShot takes "smoother" images than Lumia Camera and Microsoft Camera but at the expense of detail at high levels of zoom/magnification.
    05-07-2015 09:03 AM
  11. volpenger's Avatar
    I think that the difference between the crops is due to the oscillation of the crane ( for a gust of wind, I suppose )
    I suggest you to repeat the test using a subject that cannot move at all.
    The pixelation in zoom mode is a bit annoying, but this doesn't interfere with the image quality.
    gpobernardo likes this.
    05-07-2015 12:14 PM
  12. RiseUpGames's Avatar
    Update: App is crashing while trying to save a photo taken at maximum zoom, 34MP (16:9), level 5 saturation and level 2 sharpness.
    Do you have 8.0 installed? 8.0 has app RAM limitations, which made it difficult to do image processing on 34MP images. 8.1 expanded that app RAM ceiling, so it should run just fine. I tested the same settings on my 1020 w/ 8.1 and there were no crashes.



    Here's a quick comparison of Microsoft Camera, Lumia Camera and ProShot, using the L1020 with the Denim update. The focus of the comparison is the level of detail at high levels of magnification or digital zoom. All shots were taken at ISO-100 (to ensure constant grain), all other settings were at default values. Further enlargement was through the Zoom app.

    This is the un-zoomed photo taken with Lumia Camera for perspective (the crane is around 50 meters from my the phone). The criterion for comparison is the legibility of the numbers on the indicated target.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Microsoft Camera: with live digital zoom, enlarged
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lumia Camera: no live digital zoom, enlarged
    Click image for larger version. 

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    ProShot: with live digital zoom, enlarged
    Click image for larger version. 

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    ProShot: no live digital zoom, enlarged
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Summary:
    • Among the three, Microsoft Camera gave the brightest and sharpest image. The higher brightness level of Microsoft Camera was due to the fact that it was only "metering" a small portion of the entire field of vision as a result of live digital zooming.
    • Lumia Camera gave a darker image than Microsoft Camera, since Lumia Camera was metering the entire field of vision of the camera (without digital zoom). However, Lumia Camera was able to capture the numbers on the target.
    • Among the apps, ProShot wasn't able to deliver the same level of detail, both for the shot with live digital zoom and for the shot without digital zoom. The brightness level is also similar to that of Lumia Camera, which suggests that ProShot still meters the entire field of vision whether or not digital zoom is being performed; this seems consistent with the pixelation that occurs in ProShot when zooming in, compared with Microsoft Camera where no pixelation occurs while zooming in.
    • Consistent with older findings, ProShot takes "smoother" images than Lumia Camera and Microsoft Camera but at the expense of detail at high levels of zoom/magnification.
    Are you comparing the live view, or the captured image? ProShot's live feed and zoom are handled differently from the way Microsoft Camera and Lumia Camera do things. Lumia Camera and Microsoft camera utilize the zoom function that's built into the WP8.1 API, while ProShot uses undocumented APIs (only available in the 8.0 API set) to map the viewfinder to a DirectX texture, and move it back and forth. This was the only way I could achieve complex live filters at 30FPS on a Snapdragon S4. The end result is that zoom appears more pixelated in the viewfinder, but it does not affect the final image. With Windows 10, it looks like I might be able to get the best of both worlds. It's still up in the air, but I'll have a better idea when W10 is closer to RC.

    With that said, I think there are a couple of things happening here:

    1) As volpenger said, the crane could be swaying
    2) ProShot could have focused on the sky and not the crane
    3) The lighting conditions are rapidly changing (sun peeking though clouds), which could alter the WB or the shutter speed
    4) Lumia Camera by default applies sharpening to their images. The same effect can be achieved by applying +2 sharpening in ProShot
    5) Did you use a tripod?

    It's really tough to do an exact comparison anywhere outside of a studio with controlled lighting and no wind. I can assure you ProShot uses the full image sensor data :)
    05-07-2015 03:15 PM
  13. gpobernardo's Avatar
    I think that the difference between the crops is due to the oscillation of the crane ( for a gust of wind, I suppose )
    I suggest you to repeat the test using a subject that cannot move at all.
    The pixelation in zoom mode is a bit annoying, but this doesn't interfere with the image quality.
    Nope, the crane wasn't swaying. If you're referring to the differences in the angles of the crane, that's because I was holding the camera with my hands at ever slightly changing angles with respect to the ground (my hands don't have accelerometers). But I intend to repeat the test in a more controlled environment - the test above was impromptu.
    And yes, this doesn't interfere with image quality.
    Last edited by gpobernardo; 05-07-2015 at 03:59 PM.
    05-07-2015 03:43 PM
  14. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Do you have 8.0 installed? 8.0 has app RAM limitations, which made it difficult to do image processing on 34MP images. 8.1 expanded that app RAM ceiling, so it should run just fine. I tested the same settings on my 1020 w/ 8.1 and there were no crashes.





    Are you comparing the live view, or the captured image? ProShot's live feed and zoom are handled differently from the way Microsoft Camera and Lumia Camera do things. Lumia Camera and Microsoft camera utilize the zoom function that's built into the WP8.1 API, while ProShot uses undocumented APIs (only available in the 8.0 API set) to map the viewfinder to a DirectX texture, and move it back and forth. This was the only way I could achieve complex live filters at 30FPS on a Snapdragon S4. The end result is that zoom appears more pixelated in the viewfinder, but it does not affect the final image. With Windows 10, it looks like I might be able to get the best of both worlds. It's still up in the air, but I'll have a better idea when W10 is closer to RC.

    With that said, I think there are a couple of things happening here:

    1) As volpenger said, the crane could be swaying
    2) ProShot could have focused on the sky and not the crane
    3) The lighting conditions are rapidly changing (sun peeking though clouds), which could alter the WB or the shutter speed
    4) Lumia Camera by default applies sharpening to their images. The same effect can be achieved by applying +2 sharpening in ProShot
    5) Did you use a tripod?

    It's really tough to do an exact comparison anywhere outside of a studio with controlled lighting and no wind. I can assure you ProShot uses the full image sensor data :)
    Yup, got the latest OS and firmware updates installed in my L1020 - 8.10.14226.359, 3051.50009.1451.1011 "Denim".

    1. Responded to volpenger: crane wasn't swaying.
    2. At that distance (50 meters), it makes no difference whether the camera focused on the crane or the sky.
    3. Yes, that's why I was only comparing grain and level of detail (not saturation, white balance, etc.) - and the only constant was the ISO level, which should dictate the level of grain.
    4. Will try this +2 setting in Sharpness. However, +4 seems to sharp in my previous trials.
    5. No, but at less than 1/100th of a second shutter speed and the OIS I'm sure any minor shaking from my hand would have been eliminated. I took more than one shot with each app and then chose the "sharpest" among the tests. Besides, I think I have fairly stable enough hands - I pressed the shutter button in between heart beats and with an empty lung, just like in a firing range.

    Yes, we had some discussion before in this same thread and I believe ProShot does use full sensor data - no questions there. But the finding, as of now, still stands - that "ProShot takes 'smoother' images than Lumia Camera and Microsoft Camera but at the expense of detail at high levels of zoom/magnification," while Lumia Camera and Microsoft Camera takes "sharper" images but with higher levels of noise. Your comment on the difference in live feed handling seems to support this.

    I intend to perform other tests in more controlled environments when time permits.
    05-07-2015 03:51 PM
  15. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Update: Just did a comparison at different sharpness level settings in ProShot. Sharpness Level 1 seems to be a good balance between noise and detail. Sharpness Level 2 starts to bring out more grain than needed (@200x zoom or higher, ISO-100).

    However, Sharpness Level 1 looks much better than the shots taken by Lumia Camera, both at ISO-100. Will try to post photos of the test.

    My previous finding was at ProShot Sharpness Level 0 vs Lumia Camera/Microsot Camera.

    Nicely done, RiseUpGames! Looking forward to more developments, even through W10.
    RiseUpGames likes this.
    05-08-2015 05:29 AM
  16. wasabiman123's Avatar
    How do I get proshot to take a jpeg and save the .dng? Is that possible. proshot noob here
    05-10-2015 01:48 AM
  17. RiseUpGames's Avatar
    How do I get proshot to take a jpeg and save the .dng? Is that possible. proshot noob here
    Not possible yet, Microsoft is keeping the .DNG API private. But I have hopes that this won't be the case for long. (just a hunch, I have no official info)
    mccririck and gpobernardo like this.
    05-10-2015 02:03 AM
  18. wasabiman123's Avatar
    Not possible yet, Microsoft is keeping the .DNG API private. But I have hopes that this won't be the case for long. (just a hunch, I have no official info)
    Aw man that's some BS... BTW your app is really great, bought it on like 3 devices, thanks for the hard work, I hope they expand those APIs for you!
    RiseUpGames likes this.
    05-10-2015 09:04 PM
  19. Ineke Keur's Avatar
    Already said before but it is stil the same can not make HDR pictures with it because then after taking a picture it starts merging and saving but that does not get change to finish because it just close down and go to the normal window screen I tried restarting Phone I reinstalled it few times but it just keeps doing that and for just making photo's I can use the camera that comes with the Phone got window camera and lumia camera so did not need to buy this for 3 euro or dollar just to make normal pictures thanks would not mind if they wil fix this after al that time
    and about normal pictures taking with this app it is not so good even then it has the problem to close and just go to window screen lately it just get worse
    05-13-2015 07:58 AM
  20. RiseUpGames's Avatar
    Already said before but it is stil the same can not make HDR pictures with it because then after taking a picture it starts merging and saving but that does not get change to finish because it just close down and go to the normal window screen I tried restarting Phone I reinstalled it few times but it just keeps doing that and for just making photo's I can use the camera that comes with the Phone got window camera and lumia camera so did not need to buy this for 3 euro or dollar just to make normal pictures thanks would not mind if they wil fix this after al that time
    and about normal pictures taking with this app it is not so good even then it has the problem to close and just go to window screen lately it just get worse
    Which phone, and what is your OS version?
    gpobernardo likes this.
    05-13-2015 02:55 PM
  21. gpobernardo's Avatar
    Here's the promised more "controlled" comparison of the level of detail capture by the Lumia Camera, Microsoft Camera and ProShot (at level 1 sharpness). Shots were taken at ISO-100 on a tripod, all the rest at auto. Target was a "No Crossing" Sign around 30 meters away. Criterion for comparison: legibility of the "MMDA" sign on the lower right of the road sign. Zooming was done using the "Zoom" app, and the uploaded images are screenshots of the zoomed-in image (original photos are too large).

    Here's the 5-MP version of the image in the view finder, to give the reader an idea on how small the target is (it's the lower right corner on the pink road sign).
    wp_20150515_15_44_30_pro.jpg

    Lumia Camera:
    wp_ss_20150515_0003.png

    Microsoft Camera:
    wp_ss_20150515_0005.png

    ProShot without live zoom:
    wp_ss_20150515_0004.png

    ProShot at 10x live digital zoom:
    wp_ss_20150515_0006.png

    Verdict:
    Interestingly, the Lumia Camera seemed to perform the worst in terms of detail recovery. Lumia Camera had a hint of smudging, indicative of a slight movement in the lens assembly even if the camera (or phone) was perfectly still - it's unclear though how this would have happened since the sun was shining brightly and the shutter speed for these photos are at 1/290 sec.

    ProShot without live digital zoom could have produced the sharpest image, but at level 1 sharpness the noise was starting to get in the way of detail (level 0 sharpness is simply as not sharp as Lumia Camera and would put ProShot behind Lumia Camera). There were also smudge-like artifacts in the detail. ProShot with 10x live-digital zoom performed slightly better with less noise and less of the smudge-like artifact.

    The clear winner in the comparison, as with my previous less-"controlled" comparison, is Microsoft Camera. None of the smudge-artifact, better brightness than the Lumia Camera, less grain than ProShot and the individual letters "MMDA" could individually be recognized.


    As an added bonus, I also compared the differences in the lags of these camera apps. Focus was pre-fixed (half-press), and then the shutter was pressed at the moment the tip of the car goes behind or appeared to "touch" the stem of the plant (as shown in the photo, the cars are all behind the same plant). Factoring in my average reaction time of 190-210 milliseconds, I managed to consistently press the shutter such that the last image I see in the screen of my phone is the car's nose "touching" the stem of the plant. Hence, any lags between that point would be shown by how much the nose of the car has passed beyond the stem of the plant. All of the cars were travelling at around 50 kph.

    Lumia Camera:
    wp_ss_20150515_0008.jpg

    Microsoft Camera:
    wp_ss_20150515_0007.png

    ProShot:
    wp_ss_20150515_0009.jpg

    All of the three apps had the same lag time in their unzoomed and zoomed configuration, i.e. the lag for Microsoft camera without zoom is the same with the lag of Microsoft camera with live digital zoom, etc.

    Again, the clear winner is Microsoft Camera with the nose of the car far from the end of the white lane marker.

    The difference in lag between ProShot and Lumia Camera is very small, but by a fraction of a fraction of a second ProShot takes second place from Lumia Camera, placing Lumia Camera at the third and last position.

    Conclusion:
    In terms of detail recovery and shutter lag, Microsoft Camera with maximum live digital zoom clearly wins, with ProShot in second place and Lumia Camera in third place. One must note, however, that without live digital zoom, Microsoft Camera won't be able to recovery as much detail simply by the fact that Microsoft Camera takes low resolution photos.
    05-15-2015 03:06 PM
  22. Breever's Avatar
    Great test gpobernardo! I am using Lumia 925 and I am frustrated of smudgind those fine details that Lumia camera does, which makes pictures look slightly out of focus. I would love to use ProShot but when I delete pictures, after reboot they appear again, it frustrates me a lot!
    gpobernardo likes this.
    05-17-2015 07:08 AM
  23. vsmh96's Avatar
    What about Camera 360 sight?
    05-17-2015 07:36 AM
  24. gpobernardo's Avatar
    What about Camera 360 sight?
    I've stayed away from Camera 360 sight (or was it Camera 360, can't recall, but those two are under the same developer anyway) after a rather unpleasant exchange with one of their developers or representatives. At first they advertised their app as the fastest loading full resolution camera app, but upon testing their app only took 5MP photos (using the L1020). I gave them feedback about how fast the camera loaded and the clean UI but mentioned the lack in resolution. Then I received a response saying something like "all lumia phones take only 5MP photos" - clearly the developer or representative who replied to me didn't know what he or she was talking about. Uninstalled Camera 360 Sight after that and never reinstalled it. They changed the description of their app soon after, explicitly saying that their app takes 5MP photos, but it seems that they removed this statement in the description again. Some of the more recent feedback indicates that the app hasn't improved since.

    Update:
    I've just tested Camera360 Sight - the output can be toggled, up to 33+MP with my L1020.
    Last edited by gpobernardo; 05-18-2015 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Update with Camera 360 Sight resolution.
    05-17-2015 08:21 AM
  25. vsmh96's Avatar
    I've stayed away from Camera 360 sight (or was it Camera 360, can't recall, but those two are under the same developer anyway) after a rather unpleasant exchange with one of their developers or representatives. At first they advertised their app as the fastest loading full resolution camera app, but upon testing their app only took 5MP photos (using the L1020). I gave them feedback about how fast the camera loaded and the clean UI but mentioned the lack in resolution. Then I received a response saying something like "all lumia phones take only 5MP photos" - clearly the developer or representative who replied to me didn't know what he or she was talking about. Uninstalled Camera 360 Sight after that and never reinstalled it. They changed the description of their app soon after, explicitly saying that their app takes 5MP photos, but it seems that they removed this statement in the description again. Some of the more recent feedback indicates that the app hasn't improved since.
    Hmm, thanks for the information. They removed certain filters which i really liked and then insisted that its still there. Probably something to do with their employees being Chinese and have poor understanding. Not being racist, im Chinese too but sometimes that's just how it is unfortunately.
    05-17-2015 10:25 AM
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