Getting Bummed About Apps

[inteller]

It was a quaint thing to say WP needs more time two years ago. Today it just sounds naive. If developers aren't writing apps for it now, chances are they never will.

 

[a5cent]

The .NET runtime is just a middleware layer. It could sit on top of a mini kernel, not Windows, so that can't be a justification.

You are missing a few important issues.

WP7 used the .NET compact framework. For years Microsoft has been trying to keep that halfway in sync with the desktop version and never achieved that goal. Keeping the two in sync is a gargantuan task that simply isn't financially feasible. If Microsoft really wants cross platform capabilities on WP and Windows, then they need a more cost effective solution.

The thing is, the .NET runtime was never designed to be as portable across systems as was the java platform. The runtime environment and Windows aren't really separate entities. One example of this is the extent to which the .NET runtime makes direct calls into MinWin. The two are "baked" together. So, the only viable solution Microsoft really had was to bring MinWin over to WP, and MinWin includes the kernel.

The only reason for a Windows kernel is to allow C++ programmers lower-level access to the Win32 APIs.

I was a C++ programmer and I would disagree. Most of the OS doesn't run in kernel mode. That includes all of the API surface exposed by Win32. If you look at Microsoft's architectural diagrams of Windows, you will find Win32 sitting at least one layer above the kernel.

I think you and I are referring to a native app differently. <snipped> I think native applications in the manner you are referring to are a dieing breed maybe only used for core functions on specific applications.

Yes, that is exactly it.

I understood what you meant, but I don't find your usage a common one. Even here on WPC, which isn't a developer site, the term "native" clearly refers to code that runs directly on the CPU without requiring a runtime environment. That is exactly what all those articles mean when they refer to WP8's support for native code (mainly gaming related).

Whether a person views native applications as a dying breed or not, depends largely on their field of work. Microsoft prefers not to eat their own ".NET dogfood", so 99% of anything coming from the largest software company in the world is native code. One of the largest software fields, the traditional gaming industry (which is still growing), is almost exclusively native code based. That is unlikely to change anytime soon. Even most consumer applications on PC's remain native code based to this day.

The web and enterprise applications (where developer efficiency is far more important than software efficiency) is where native code isn't just dying, but has been dead already for quite a few years.

 

[a5cent]

It was a quaint thing to say WP needs more time two years ago. Today it just sounds naive. If developers aren't writing apps for it now, chances are they never will.

I don't think we can say never, but otherwise agree. People still expecting WP to catch up with iOS and Android in the apps department will be disappointed. It never was a realistic expectation. WP needs to carry and sell itself based on its own merits as an OS, and whatever Microsoft themselves decide to deliver exclusively for WP (which doesn't seem to happening right now).

Apps won't ever be WP's strong suite. For that iOS and Android have just had too much of a head start.

 

[Lumiaddict]

I don't think we can say never, but otherwise agree. People still expecting WP to catch up with iOS and Android in the apps department will be disappointed. It never was a realistic expectation. WP needs to carry and sell itself based on its own merits as an OS, and whatever Microsoft themselves decide to deliver exclusively for WP (which doesn't seem to happening right now).

Apps won't ever be WP's strong suite. For that iOS and Android have just had too much of a head start.

Everyone has their own opinion

 

[a5cent]

Everyone has their own opinion

Maybe I shouldn't have said "ever be WP's strong suite". Things can change. History is on my side of that argument however. It's happened hundreds of times before, and wishful thinking isn't likely to change the outcome. Microsoft is huge, but not even they can change how markets work.

 

[sandmanfvr]

Glad to see developers post in here as I like to hear others in IT (not a coder myself) tell their issues. Windows Blue. The big "magic bullet" seemingly is being looked at as the big catch all and man I hope it delivers. I am happy with the apps as is, but of course me as a user have different requirements for apps so others will be disappointed in apps. To me Windows Phone has always been about features that old blackberry os (per blackberry 10), android and ios have. I want a notification center that is good on top of the live tiles and that is toast. It needs to work better or well work at all. Next the os needs basic features as uploading videos to social media, notification sounds, beefier email features (saw GDR2 adding some so that is good), and finally more social media features in the people hub. I am wondering if the development issues stated here is make Microsoft slow down till Blue comes out?

Unfortunately I have been here before, 2 years ago or so with my HTC Arrive. After 7.5 came out, not much was happening and really I got bored and left as I didn't see Microsoft doing much. Now WP8 is so great, but in the end the OS is lagging way behind and even with the new apps, Microsoft is kicking developers in the stomach with another revamp in Blue hoping it fixes it all. Blackberry 10 was my first choice and gave WP another go and it isn't horrible, but I do see features in Blackberry 10 that WP don't have an even with Blackberry 10's lack of apps, the ability of having the android runtime makes that a moot point. I am hoping on BLue but I think I decided to watch craigslist and pick my up a z10 and give it a try in month or so as they are already showing up for $400 or less here and there. I am like others and WANT WP to succeed, but I think the app argument, which was great by the topic starter here, is just a piece of a bigger picture. I was really shocked when I came back that alot was the same in the os. So I guess I end my rambling, I am good at that lol, with Windows Blue SHOULD fix it, but in the end time will tell.

 

[Nick_1020]

Pretty happy with the app situation on WP. Most days have seen updates and improvements so it shows that developers are paying attention and are serious about bug fixes.

Would be nice to have a dedicated banking app, Tapatalk (possibly on the way) plus a few games that are popular on other platforms. My #1 bugbear is the lack of a really decent and comprehensive exercise app with heart rate monitor support...apparently, that's on the way too.

 

[a5cent]

Windows Blue. The big "magic bullet" seemingly is being looked at as the big catch all and man I hope it delivers.

Windows Blue and WP's version of the same will do a lot for developers. I'm not sure what consumers will think. I have a hunch many will view all the new features as long overdue and already be looking towards WP9 even before WP Blue is released.

Microsoft is in quite a bind. All they can do is try and make it as easy as possible to port metro applications between desktops, laptops, tablets and phones. However, that won't entice developers to port their apps from Android or iOS, nor will it suddenly cause developers to target WP as their primary mobile OS. Users expecting large and sudden changes on the apps front will be disappointed. The only thing that can change that, is either Windows tablets or Windows phones taking of with a growth rate ten times of what it is now.

WP Blue is just another important step, but I don't think it is a silver bullet. As others have mentioned, WP is currently in a vicious chicken-and-egg spiral. So far Microsoft hasn't been able to break out of that spiral. I don't see what WP Blue brings to the table that might change that.

Like I've been saying all along, Microsoft can't change economics. Throwing money at app developers has been making the problem even worse. Microsoft has but one way out, and that is to offer two or three of their own killer applications that people desperately want and would consider switching to WP for. Anything short of that won't cut it. So far I see no signs of them doig that though.

On the other hand, just like you, I'm not one of those with an apps problem either. I get along just fine with WP's current app selection.

 

[Ridlah]

We also get apps late like when Draw Something finally hit Windows phone I got it and my friends said that game was last years thing. Apps are pretty expensive too and I understand that its because the developers need the money but they don't even update to support bugs and give new features as fast as they do on android and ios. The biggest issue is that Microsoft didn't put native coding in windows phone 7.8 which is capable of running it. The way I see it is I can upgrade to a new wp8 and only get slightly more apps than the ones already in the wp7 market place or I can upgrade to an iPhone or Android and have more apps.

 

[FinancialP]

Maybe I shouldn't have said "ever be WP's strong suite". Things can change. History is on my side of that argument however. It's happened hundreds of times before, and wishful thinking isn't likely to change the outcome. Microsoft is huge, but not even they can change how markets work.

No I think you are 100% correct. Android has been chasing the App Store for years, and they still haven't caught up. IOS still has a ton of exclusives.

 

[Mike Gibson]

The thing is, the .NET runtime was never designed to be as portable across systems as was the java platform. The runtime environment and Windows aren't really separate entities. One example of this is the extent to which the .NET runtime makes direct calls into MinWin. The two are "baked" together. So, the only viable solution Microsoft really had was to bring MinWin over to WP, and MinWin includes the kernel.

WinRT doesn't call MinWin (which is an internal thing far below what we're discussing here), it calls the regular Win32 APIs. WinRT is just another user mode app framework. In fact, when I profiled my WinPRT app while it was doing intensive Direct3D work on my HTC 8X, I was surprised to see that the largest amount of time was spent in, get this, GDI32.DLL (42%). The second highest component was the Snapdragon 8960 DX9 graphics driver (at 12%). I asked MSFT about GDI32.DLL on Windows Phone 8 and why it was involved at all but received no response. It would be interesting to profile a pure XAML+C# app on a phone to see how much GDI32.DLL shows up (my guess is a lot since the XAML renderer uses D3D, which is probably the component that touches GDI32). One final note on this topic, in my profile I also saw that DWRITE.DLL was in use. WinPRT apps are not allowed to use DirectWrite. Why not? Basically, you have most of the important Win32 APIs sitting right there on the phone, ready to use yet MSFT artificially restricts accessing them. It's silly.

I was a C++ programmer and I would disagree. Most of the OS doesn't run in kernel mode. That includes all of the API surface exposed by Win32. If you look at Microsoft's architectural diagrams of Windows, you will find Win32 sitting at least one layer above the kernel.

When I said "Windows kernel" I was referring to something more general. Maybe a better term is "Windows Core" or "Win32 API". It's difficult to come up with a description of what I mean by "core" given all the bits and pieces in the Win32 API ... but basically I'm referring to the commonly used components in C++ programs (e.g. File APIs, WinInet, WinSock, etc.). It was silly to artificially prevent access to these well known and battle-tested APIs.

 

[spaulagain]

WinRT doesn't call MinWin (which is an internal thing far below what we're discussing here), it calls the regular Win32 APIs. WinRT is just another user mode app framework. In fact, when I profiled my WinPRT app while it was doing intensive Direct3D work on my HTC 8X, I was surprised to see that the largest amount of time was spent in, get this, GDI32.DLL (42%). The second highest component was the Snapdragon 8960 DX9 graphics driver (at 12%). I asked MSFT about GDI32.DLL on Windows Phone 8 and why it was involved at all but received no response. It would be interesting to profile a pure XAML+C# app on a phone to see how much GDI32.DLL shows up (my guess is a lot since the XAML renderer uses D3D, which is probably the component that touches GDI32). One final note on this topic, in my profile I also saw that DWRITE.DLL was in use. WinPRT apps are not allowed to use DirectWrite. Why not? Basically, you have most of the important Win32 APIs sitting right there on the phone, ready to use yet MSFT artificially restricts accessing them. It's silly.


When I said "Windows kernel" I was referring to something more general. Maybe a better term is "Windows Core" or "Win32 API". It's difficult to come up with a description of what I mean by "core" given all the bits and pieces in the Win32 API ... but basically I'm referring to the commonly used components in C++ programs (e.g. File APIs, WinInet, WinSock, etc.). It was silly to artificially prevent access to these well known and battle-tested APIs.

Silly from your perspective but maybe MS had good reasons of their own.

I think they are simply in the process of building this environment. Just the fact that they are unifying these products is a million mile stones ahead of where MS was just a couple years ago. Its pretty impressive what that company has done over the past 2 years across their entire portfolio.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Silly from your perspective but maybe MS had good reasons of their own.

I think they are simply in the process of building this environment. Just the fact that they are unifying these products is a million mile stones ahead of where MS was just a couple years ago. Its pretty impressive what that company has done over the past 2 years across their entire portfolio.

There are two problems with C++ development on WinPRT (no XAML access and large differences between WinRT and WinPRT) and there are no "good" reasons for those limitations. In a MSDN blog post, one of the Dev Managers for WinPRT said that they weren't 'philosophically opposed' to C++ XAML access but that they 'ran out of time'. I assume this is also the reason for the API inconsistencies, too. This is unacceptable for a strategic product from a company with 90,000+ employees. The dev managers should have recognized the time shortfall early on and fought for more dev help (and upper management should have offered the WinPhone team anything they needed).

We shouldn't be sitting around waiting for MSFT to get it "right" with Windows Blue. I don't know what they're smoking up in Redmond these days but they appear to be unaware of the dire situation for them out here in the real world.

 

[sandmanfvr]

We shouldn't be sitting around waiting for MSFT to get it "right" with Windows Blue. I don't know what they're smoking up in Redmond these days but they appear to be unaware of the dire situation for them out here in the real world.

Couldn't agree more and I am not into the development discussion per say. I see another Tweet on the news page and who bets that is just hot air? Releasing an app every month or so isn't cutting it.

 

[spaulagain]

There are two problems with C++ development on WinPRT (no XAML access and large differences between WinRT and WinPRT) and there are no "good" reasons for those limitations. In a MSDN blog post, one of the Dev Managers for WinPRT said that they weren't 'philosophically opposed' to C++ XAML access but that they 'ran out of time'. I assume this is also the reason for the API inconsistencies, too. This is unacceptable for a strategic product from a company with 90,000+ employees. The dev managers should have recognized the time shortfall early on and fought for more dev help (and upper management should have offered the WinPhone team anything they needed).

We shouldn't be sitting around waiting for MSFT to get it "right" with Windows Blue. I don't know what they're smoking up in Redmond these days but they appear to be unaware of the dire situation for them out here in the real world.

But that's based on your perspective from your chair that is not in Microsoft's headquarters.

What you are failing to recognize is the general state of the Microsoft company just 2 years ago. For over a decade that companies work environment has been siloed to hell. Former employees talk about it all the time and it shows in Microsoft's products over the years. That has huge effect on several aspects for product releases. First off, it means the teams that work on different products often don't communicate or integrate very well. Second, those teams are limited to the resources they have, they can't just borrow some developers from the other products. Especially because those developers are not familiar with the products environment.

Microsoft has publicly stated the efforts over the past 2 years to reinvent not only their products, but themselves. There has been massive reorganization, new management, new product directions, and a whole new concept for their products interface and development process. They are doing all of this at the same time. It does not surprise me one bit that they ran out of time or resources. They can't forever delay the products release or they'll miss the opportunity with the customers.

Its just not as easy as you think it is to steer a giant company like that and get every desired feature out at once.

 

[fatclue_98]

It's one thing to have fewer apps than the competition, it's another drop apps that were previously available. I was activating a Titan a couple of days ago and was re-installing some apps that I had used in the past. To my surprise I received numerous error messages that read "this app is no longer published". Example, the Walgreen's app on WP7 was worlds better than the iOS counterpart (for once) and now the only choice (for lack of a better word) is no more than a link to the mobile website. That's unacceptable. I can do the same from my PalmOS Treo and at least have a real keyboard. Heck, I can do the same on a feature phone with a WAP browser. When you have 700k apps available you can afford to jettison some duplicate apps that have low churn. When you only have 1 or 2 of something.....you get the gist.

 

[svenhassel]

Guys, the situation is not bad. It?s not as good as iOS of course, but is not terrible as some people want to make others think.

Many apps in the others OSs had to just provide basic stuff that the platform didn?t have (iOS didn?t have an apple official alarm clock until 2012).

I have an iPad, and I just keep using regularly 10 apps. And I even don?t miss them on the phone, cause they have different functions. Flipboard on the phone? Yeah, it could be nice, but I would never use it.

WP8 problem is not the lack of apps, is the lack of a notification center, and other basic stuff (lack of USB sync with Outlook). And even those problems are not so serious.

Each platform has it?s trade offs: iOS has static icons and comes in expensive packages, android is a resource hog, is fragmented and is insecure for business. When android started, it was terrible as an OS, and the apps sucked. It gradually improved over the years. WP8 will probable improve too, both in the core stuff, and the app selection. Anyway, its a great platform now, and its a matter of taste. For me the best experiences come from iOS and WP8. Android is a big advertising for Googles services that suck your information.

 

[Lumiaddict]

I love my 920...I dont plan on changing phones any time soon. I only started this post to spark good convo lol

 

[Mike Gibson]

Second, those teams are limited to the resources they have, they can't just borrow some developers from the other products. Especially because those developers are not familiar with the products environment.

It doesn't require borrowing devs from other products. The MSFT devs are not single function robots that can only work on one part of a project. You may have a GDI guy that does some work in KERNEL or USER or whatever is required at the time. This mostly happens when a dev is finished with his/her specific work on the main project (and especially when there are piles of beta bug reports to sort through/classify/fix/postpone/etc).

Anyway, blabbing about stuff like this doesn't solve anything. Who knows what will happen. I hope MSFT comes to its senses and makes some drastic changes. Their future is at stake.

 

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

The racism and personal attacks stop right now! Any more racist attacks will receive discrimination infractions which is an instant permanent ban. Don't do it!