11-15-2014 06:23 AM
74 123
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  1. dkediger's Avatar
    Well know, or a Windows Central hypothesis?
    Loook no further than the Office -> Google Apps -> O365 evolution for one example. Google wants what Microsoft has - the Enterprise user. That's a space that Apple doesn't play in, and shows no interest in pursuing.
    Basically, Microsoft/Google products compete directly across the board while Google/Apple do not. A successful Windows Phone is highly threatening to Google. Apple is now what Apple will be in 2 years or even 5 years.

    If you want to go further back, Eric Schmidt was head of Novell during the years Windows NT Server/2000 Server totally displaced Novell in the server room. He knows from first hand experience what Microsoft with a firm toe hold is capable of doing. He was not/is not going to let that happen again if he can help it.

    Edited: Clarification and change tone of last paragraph.
    Last edited by dkediger; 11-07-2014 at 07:56 AM.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-07-2014 12:38 AM
  2. mccririck's Avatar
    What is an enterprise user?
    11-07-2014 01:43 AM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    Well know, or a Windows Central hypothesis?
    Well known... at least in those circles where it's important to know (CTOs, technology business analysts, product managers, etc).

    It becomes clear when you realize how for almost every consumer facing product/service MS has, Google has setup their own directly competing equivalent (and visa versa). That is not true of Apple, at least not to the same extent.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-07-2014 at 05:48 AM.
    11-07-2014 05:13 AM
  4. dkediger's Avatar
    What is an enterprise user?
    Essentially a user at a desktop in a business. Above say, 20 desktops or so, a business typically acquires IT resources beyond/behind the desktop: servers for authentication, printing, storage; larger printers; business software often sold (or more efficiently acquired) in volume seat levels. Typically an IT support person, or prepaid third party support, is added at that point as well. The costs beyond what is sitting on the desktop (or tablet, or phone) add up fast and amount to at least 2-5 times the cost of the desktop for efficiently run organizations. The ability to consolidate and standardize has the potential for huge payoffs in a larger business/enterprise. It also creates a degree of lock in, or commitment to a platform, as to change takes a lot of time and effort.
    11-07-2014 08:30 AM
  5. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    I still haven't converted any of my LOB apps to metro apps because we don't/won't use windows 8 on our work PC's. The problem is windows 8 doesn't play very nicely with windows 7 networks. I have quite a few xaml wpf apps that I run on windows 8 tablets for patient interaction that I would love to convert to metro/wp apps. So yes, there is some legitimacy to his argument, but in reality the main reason there are no apps is MS has the worst PR ever.
    colinkiama likes this.
    11-07-2014 08:41 AM
  6. FinancialP's Avatar
    . Even an extremely conservative approximation suggests Google is leaving hundreds of million of dollars on the table, annually. I suspect what you meant to say is simply that this uncollected revenue isn't going to waste, because Google is getting something in return, namely suppressed WP growth. That I would agree with.



    I agree that "if Microsoft sold 950 million WPs today, we would see top notch Google apps for WP tomorrow". However, Google would do so not because that's the point at which it first becomes profitable (that point we already passed).
    How is Google leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the table? How did you come up with those numbers?

    You're not being conservative at all, in fact you're being extremely generous.

    You guys were using 50 million users as an absolute, when in reality that's just not the case.

    You can double the number to 100 million windows phone users and that is still not enough users for Google or any major company to take serious. Look at the companies that haven't updated their apps and those who have dropped support.


    You must take into account the amount of people who actually have internet access on their phones, you must take into account the people who actually use apps, and you must take account the people who actually want your app/has access to your apps/use your app.

    Let's be extremely generous and say 10% of 100 million people want your app. In this case Google. Is 10 million people worthwhile for Google? People who may or may not actually use your app, people who may not have access to the internet. Remember there is only a very small subset of people who actually want Google apps on this forum, those numbers I gave are extremely generous.
    11-07-2014 09:05 AM
  7. dkediger's Avatar
    It can bleed into other areas. My enterprise is moving, as we speak, from Google Apps to O365. Granted, its largely because Microsoft has a far superior product - and it is ubiquitous across the platforms we use. GApps isn't. We've done our due diligence and are not just throwing the baby out with the bath water. But, as IT Director, my experience and voice is generally more equal than others in our decision making process. And my experience on WP with GApps is lacking and I know Google has absolutely no intentions of changing that. So, in my case, 1 user became 350 formerly paying GApps users.
    jmshub likes this.
    11-07-2014 09:45 AM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    How is Google leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the table? How did you come up with those numbers?.
    In the context of this discussion its been explained why it doesn't matter what the exact numbers are. Important is only whether or not you believe Google is missing out on profit they could otherwise be earning.

    However, I did explain the basis for that number in multiple earlier posts. I expect you to read all of them (including the link) if you're going to jump in at the end of the conversation. If you can ask the question in a way that pinpoints exactly what you don't agree with, then I'll be happy to get into it, but I think you'll understand that I have no interest in rolling up the entire conversation from the start.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-07-2014 at 10:54 AM.
    11-07-2014 10:22 AM
  9. colinkiama's Avatar
    Google just doesn't care yet...
    11-07-2014 05:59 PM
  10. JamesPTao's Avatar
    Google just doesn't care yet...
    I don't believe that's true at all. I believe it os completely intentional. They know what they're doing and the money lost. It is being done to kill WP growth. When wp8 was first released most people where invested I Google's services such as Gmail, drive and calender. So not being able to use these was enough to make many who wanted to try WP reconsider. It almost did with me and was definently a strong factor towards making my decision one way or the other. In the end I took a chance and went with the os I liked, WP. And have been very happy, but for many it was too much of a risk. If you remember Google's services at first synched perfect because they were using the standard protocols. They switched to their own unique ones in am attempt to kill WP when the 920 was released. Eventually they backed off and gave ms time to male their phones work to Google's proprietary version. Their was no reason for google to choose a proprietary way of synching at the time, it actually would make their services less functional other than to try and stifle a competitor. They are doing the same thing now. They don't do it to apple because apple fans are unlikely to transition to android so they would lose money with no benefit as apple people are entrenched I apple services. And if they do tramsition it is because of cheaper android devices. WP is a more direct competer in that it could replace Google's services with its own and the devices are in all the same price points. But for WP phone to get many new customers they would have to make it an easy transition and Google's denial of services makes that a bigger stumbling block which helps them retain business and profits more then they would lose from advertising revenue in WP.
    11-07-2014 10:47 PM
  11. colinkiama's Avatar
    I don't believe that's true at all. I believe it os completely intentional. They know what they're doing and the money lost. It is being done to kill WP growth. When wp8 was first released most people where invested I Google's services such as Gmail, drive and calender. So not being able to use these was enough to make many who wanted to try WP reconsider. It almost did with me and was definently a strong factor towards making my decision one way or the other. In the end I took a chance and went with the os I liked, WP. And have been very happy, but for many it was too much of a risk. If you remember Google's services at first synched perfect because they were using the standard protocols. They switched to their own unique ones in am attempt to kill WP when the 920 was released. Eventually they backed off and gave ms time to male their phones work to Google's proprietary version. Their was no reason for google to choose a proprietary way of synching at the time, it actually would make their services less functional other than to try and stifle a competitor. They are doing the same thing now. They don't do it to apple because apple fans are unlikely to transition to android so they would lose money with no benefit as apple people are entrenched I apple services. And if they do tramsition it is because of cheaper android devices. WP is a more direct competer in that it could replace Google's services with its own and the devices are in all the same price points. But for WP phone to get many new customers they would have to make it an easy transition and Google's denial of services makes that a bigger stumbling block which helps them retain business and profits more then they would lose from advertising revenue in WP.
    No, they really actually don't care. 1.5 billion androids and iPhones vs 50 million Windows phones. Why on earth would they care? There are only 50 million Windows phone users against a billion iOS and Android users. It may seem like saying sabotage but BlackBerry is not getting love from Google either. Neither is Jolla or anyone else they are too small.
    11-08-2014 05:15 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Why on earth would they care?.

    Read and understand the discussion on last page and you'll know, not to mention that it would be absolutely reckless not to care about what a competitor the size of MS is doing with WP. The best time to care is while WP is small. Afterwards it could be too late. Capitalism 101...
    11-08-2014 05:28 AM
  13. colinkiama's Avatar
    Read and understand the discussion on last page and you'll know, not to mention that it would be absolutely reckless not to care about what a competitor the size of MS is doing with WP. The best time to care is while WP is small. Afterwards it could be too late. Capitalism 101...
    in a way Microsoft are directly competing against Google. Bing vs Google search. Bing maps vs Google maps. Xbox music vs play music. Xbox live vs play games. Play movies vs Xbox video . Google docs vs office. OneDrive vs Google drive. But what really is the main problem is that Microsoft is using Bing search and ads against Google. They are competing directly to Google's bread and butter. What they get the most money from. Have you noticed that in some Windows phones, the search engine in IE is limited to only bing. When you go on Google it persuades you to use Bing. And the search button can only be linked to Bing (unless you are in Russia where it just goes to Google) why doesn't the search button have an option to link to Google. In iOS you have an option to pick what spotlight searches with and the browser too. But on Windows phone, it's very very limited. Haven't. You guys noticed that?
    11-08-2014 05:47 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    Of course we've noticed. I just don't know what your point is. Google released Google docs and Google web apps, which are frontal attacks on one of MS' biggest bread winners, Office. If Chrome OS ever catches on, that too would be a huge threat to Windows and an existential threat to MS in the consumer space. As a result, MS is now kicking Chrome OS just as much as Google is kicking WP. Both companies are going after each others revenue streams. Both have no choice but to care about each others products and services...
    11-08-2014 06:00 AM
  15. colinkiama's Avatar
    Of course we've noticed. I just don't know what your point is. Google released Google docs and Google web apps, which are frontal attacks on one of MS' biggest bread winners, Office. If Chrome OS ever catches on, that too would be a huge threat to Windows and an existential threat to MS in the consumer space. As a result, MS is now kicking Chrome OS just as much as Google is kicking WP. Both companies are going after each others revenue streams. Both have no choice but to care about each others products and services...
    But Microsoft isn't picking chrome OS. Microsoft released office online already. What is the point of Google docs now? What I am saying is that there is a reason why Apple always gets support from big companies in the end. Despite their market share. You've sent forced to use a search engine. You aren't forced into using Google search in Google's platforms. But you are forced or heavily influenced to use Bing a lot when it comes to Microsoft. Why are search functions being limited to only bing on Microsoft platforms.
    It may sound stupid but it makes sense., ONLY Microsoft are doing they are not Google apps on their platforms
    11-08-2014 06:17 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Why are search functions being limited to only bing on Microsoft platforms.
    Is it not obvious by now? For the same reasons Google is not providing their services on WP. It goes both ways.

    Google does what they can to discourage WP, Windows, Office and Outlook.com usage while MS does what they can to discourage Google search, Chrome and Android usage. That's each company's "stick" tactic, while each also builds more carrots.

    There are plenty of documents on the web describing how MS is fighting against Chrome OS, should you not be willing to believe that is actually happening.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-08-2014 at 07:31 AM.
    11-08-2014 07:09 AM
  17. colinkiama's Avatar
    Is it not obvious by now? For the same reasons Google is not providing their services on WP. It goes both ways.

    Google does what they can to discourage WP, Windows, Office and Outlook.com usage while MS does what they can to discourage Google search, Chrome and Android usage. That's each company's "stick" tactic, while each also builds more carrots.

    There are plenty of documents on the web describing how MS is fighting against Chrome OS, should you not be willing to believe that is actually happening.
    Microsoft are destined to lose then. The majority of People just don't like bing. Simple as that. They like Google. Might as well cancel windows phone and tiles. Nowadays it's no Google, no buy. Seriously.
    11-08-2014 11:44 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft are destined to lose then. The majority of People just don't like bing. Simple as that. They like Google. Might as well cancel windows phone and tiles. Nowadays it's no Google, no buy. Seriously.
    I think you're right that many of us on sites like this prefer Google search (as do I). However, I think the fact that iOS8 uses Bing by default, and that only a very small minority switch back to Google, shows the majority couldn't care less. Many iPhone users aren't even aware that Bing is their search provider. I think that is pretty clear evidence that the situation with Bing is not as dire as you make it out to be. Make it easy to use Bing on a mobil device, and the overwhelming majority will be happy to use it.
    Laura Knotek, tgp and jmshub like this.
    11-08-2014 01:03 PM
  19. mccririck's Avatar
    I use google search out of habit - years of habit. I never liked the name "Bing" so always avoided it.
    JamesPTao and colinkiama like this.
    11-08-2014 01:05 PM
  20. tgp's Avatar
    However, I think the fact that iOS8 uses Bing by default, and that only a very small minority switch back to Google, shows the majority couldn't care less.
    That's probably correct; most iPhone users probably don't know, and wouldn't care if they did know. Isn't the main reason Apple switched to Bing search because of their (Apple's) competition with Google? Not that Apple likes Microsoft either, but the rivalry with Microsoft probably isn't as intense at the moment.

    Not too many people, including Microsoft's fans, thinks that Bing search is better than Google, and I doubt whether Apple thinks so either. But Bing gets the job done for the most part.

    On another subject, I am curious about iOS using Bing outside of the US. Does the quality suffer like it does using Bing straight up?
    a5cent likes this.
    11-08-2014 01:41 PM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    On another subject, I am curious about iOS using Bing outside of the US. Does the quality suffer like it does using Bing straight up?
    You'd have to ask an iPhone user. Despite living in a country with one of the highest rates of iPhone ownership, I haven't used one in over two years.

    However, I'd be flabbergasted if Bing on the iPhone didn't suffer in international markets in the same way. I'd have to see proof before believing it's better than using Bing straight up. My fiance does most of her web searching in German and for that reason alone she very much prefers Google. There's also no denying that in international markets, the rate of people consciously switching back to Google is higher than in North America. I just don't know how much higher. I'm also not sure if the same can be said for Britain or Australia.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-10-2014 at 05:22 PM. Reason: England > Britain
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-09-2014 04:25 PM
  22. mccririck's Avatar
    You'd have to ask an iPhone user. Despite living in a country with one of the highest rates of iPhone ownership, I haven't used one in over two years.

    However, I'd be flabbergasted if Bing on the iPhone didn't suffer in international markets in the same way. I'd have to see proof before believing it's better than using Bing straight up. My fiance does most of her web searching in German and for that reason alone she very much prefers Google. There's also no denying that in international markets, the rate of people consciously switching back to Google is higher than in North America. I just don't know how much higher. I'm also not sure if the same can be said for England or Australia.
    You mean Britain / the UK.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-10-2014 12:37 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    You mean Britain / the UK.
    lol, I hate it when that happens. Thx, edited... :D
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-10-2014 at 08:00 AM.
    mccririck likes this.
    11-10-2014 02:15 AM
  24. colinkiama's Avatar
    I think you're right that many of us on sites like this prefer Google search (as do I). However, I think the fact that iOS8 uses Bing by default, and that only a very small minority switch back to Google, shows the majority couldn't care less. Many iPhone users aren't even aware that Bing is their search provider. I think that is pretty clear evidence that the situation with Bing is not as dire as you make it out to be. Make it easy to use Bing on a mobil device, and the overwhelming majority will be happy to use it.
    It uses a Bing engine for spotlight search however any time you search the web it defaults to Google. It doesn't even tell you that it uses bing
    11-15-2014 06:23 AM
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