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11-15-2014 06:23 AM
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  1. colinkiama's Avatar
    Windows Phone relies too heavily on the market share of windows 8 especially since the SDK is limited to Windows 8. And you know bad of a reputation windows 8 got. So there aren't going to be many developers for windows phone because even if they do consider they have to go through the process of updating to windows 8 first.

    iOS is not suffering from this because they were first successful in getting developers to develop apps for iOS. And there was nothing like the App Store at the time. Despite the fact that you require a Mac(which has less marketshare than windows)

    Android has the most apps since you can develop on probably anything. From windows, mac, Linux. Anyone can make an android app.

    Windows 10 is looking good so far and is probably going to be replacing the windows 7 computers, meaning that the users upgrading are potential developers. But why wait till then. Microsoft should just release the windows phone 8/8.1 sdk now for windows 7, and since most are on it already. Developers are more likely to consider developing. Then in windows 10 they can turn the 8.1 apps into universal apps. A win for windows phone and windows RT/PCs
    Last edited by colinkiama; 11-05-2014 at 12:12 AM.
    jaspreet Atwa1 and Makm like this.
    11-03-2014 03:00 PM
  2. Loco5150's Avatar
    I don't think the need of Win8 PC is the reason, although it's not helping either of course.

    The reason is the small market share. Nothing more in to it. Windows Phone still has Instagram on BETA status. The numbers are too low for companies to care. Small companies that might care on any possible user, often have to prioritize and there WP comes so far behind you cant even see it.
    Last edited by Loco5150; 11-03-2014 at 03:40 PM.
    11-03-2014 03:08 PM
  3. colinkiama's Avatar
    I don't think the need of Win8 PC is the reason, although it's not helping either of course.

    The reason is the small market share. Nothing more in to it. Windows Phone still has Instagram on BETA status. The numbers are too low for companies to care. Small companies that might care on any possible user, often have to prioritize and there WP comes so far behind you cant even see it.
    But how on earth are there more apps then in BB app world and the Mac app store? With marketshare soo low
    11-03-2014 04:01 PM
  4. colinkiama's Avatar
    What I'm saying is they should make it easier for people that do consider. And small companies could be local shops and local banks. Why not make it easier for them too. They definitely won't update to 8 for low marketshare but if it's easy for them to start then they are more likely to since they are less barriers to go through. People won't buy the phone if there's no apps. Because there is low marketshare, devs won't create apps. They should at least try break this cycle somehow. what else are Microsoft supposed to two to increase marketshare? Wait for 10? Hoping that developers will fly in for threshold. Remember android are doing exactly the same thing with lollipop.
    11-03-2014 04:09 PM
  5. jaspreet Atwa1's Avatar
    I agree with colinkiama. Microsoft should make it easier to develop apps. Another strategy would be to release an SDK for Mac. I'm sure that most of android apps are also being developed on Mac.
    colinkiama and Makm like this.
    11-04-2014 05:28 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    What you are saying is similar to this:

    It's too hard to build a house. We should make it easier to build a house, by ensuring people can buy doorknobs at every local grocery store. If people could buy doorknobs at safeway, many more would build houses.

    That obviously makes no sense. The app argument is pretty much the same. The time and effort it takes to get W8.1 on a computer is a drop in the bucket compared to the effort required to actually make a good app.

    Of course there is nothing wrong with making things easier. If MS can do that without having to expend time and effort, then by all means, why not... it's just not solving a real problem.

    Finally, W8.1 and visual studio already run just fine on a Mac, so that is already possible.
    FinancialP, jmshub and Sam Ogden1 like this.
    11-04-2014 07:04 AM
  7. colinkiama's Avatar
    What you are saying is similar to this:

    It's too hard to build a house. We should make it easier to build a house, by ensuring people can buy doorknobs at every local grocery store. If people could buy doorknobs at safeway, many more would build houses.

    That obviously makes no sense. The app argument is pretty much the same. The time and effort it takes to get W8.1 on a computer is a drop in the bucket compared to the effort required to actually make a good app.

    Of course there is nothing wrong with making things easier. If MS can do that without having to expend time and effort, then by all means, why not... it's just not solving a real problem.

    Finally, W8.1 and visual studio already run just fine on a Mac, so that is already possible.
    however people in general do not want windows 8. Windows 8 is not just a doorknob, it's almost all the supplies. Since only the sdk can be used with windows 8. But people in general won't update to windows 8. Even if they consider developing for WP they won't attempt to due to the reputation of windows 8. So why not bring the supplies to them. They already are using windows 7(and Mac) so bringing the sdk to those platforms means that they can jump right it. As little hassle as possible. They are developing for low marketshare.

    Besides what else can they do till windows 10 comes?

    Just a theory though
    11-04-2014 07:55 AM
  8. Poirots Progeny's Avatar
    It's a combination of things; yes, it should be easier to create apps, but the primary reason is market share. Banks won't even produce apps, and they have vested interest in making customers (reasonably) happy.

    Bb10 does have more apps - a massive amount comes from one dev! They've gone to amazon to yet get newer, updated apps, and apps not on bb10. Try find whatsapp on amazon. Amazon does not have app parity with Google, and many apps are older versions. I've got a passport today and it's great but some stupid still don't work properly!!!

    WP really needs to get into as many hands as possible - and all these betas need to go. My 1520 is still as fresh as the day I got it, but I'm in a fortunate position to have devices from all ecosystems. Due to the app gap and, for me, the feature gap, that is a requirement.

    It comes down to making it easier to port apps and market share. Produce a compelling device (and I personally think the range should be cut down) and sell it cheap or as a loss leader. I think msft should take the reins and ignore the other oems - they contribute far too little. The m8 is a beast but how's it doing compared to the 520 or 530?

    Stability, continuity, support and ease of access. And seriously, get feature parity. Device encryption and commercial vpn support is a must, especially in late 2014.

    Then sell hard and hopefully devs will wake up. They have to prioritise their costs and wp is far down the list of roi earners. As is bb. At least bb has amazon, snap and others. If you're willing to faff around.
    Yazen and Quantify like this.
    11-04-2014 08:15 AM
  9. colinkiama's Avatar
    It's a combination of things; yes, it should be easier to create apps, but the primary reason is market share. Banks won't even produce apps, and they have vested interest in making customers (reasonably) happy.

    Bb10 forest have more apps - a massive amount comes from one dev! They've gone to amazon to yet get newer, updated apps, and apps not on bb10. Try find whatsapp on amazon. Amazon does not have app party with Google, and many apps are older versions. I've got a passport today and its great but some stupid still don't work properly!!!

    WP really needs to get into as many hands as possible - and all these betas need to go. My 1520 is still as fresh as the day I got it, but I'm in a fortunate position to have devices from all ecosystems. Due to the app gap that is a requirement.

    It comes down to making out easier to port apps and market share. Produce a compelling device (and I personally think the range should be cut down) and sell it cheap or as a lots leader. I think msft should take the reins and ignore the other oems - the contribute far too little. The m8 is a beast but how'd it doing compared to the 520 or 530?

    Stability, continuity, support and ease of access. And seriously, get feature parity. Device encryption and commercial vpn support is a must, especially in late 2014.

    Then sell hard and hopefully devs will wake up. They have to prioritise their costs and wp is fast down the list of roi earners. As is bb. At least bb has amazon, snap and others. If you're willing to faff around.
    Commercial VPN came with the new 8.1.1 update didn't it? Also the app world for bb10 has 130,000 apps which is less than WP which has over 300,000. Amazon gave them 240,000 more apps bringing it to 370,000 apps but like you said some of the apps are missing features are not function correctly.

    The main complaint with WP is the app gap. Ask anyone who uses anything other than WP, they will complain even if the apps they need are there, because someone told them there are no apps (less that android and WP) they won't buy the phone. So they need to make devs jump in the platform.
    11-04-2014 08:41 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    however people in general do not want windows 8. Windows 8 is not just a doorknob, it's almost all the supplies. Since only the sdk can be used with windows 8. But people in general won't update to windows 8.
    You're still missing the point. Getting all the supplies is nothing compared to building the house. Anybody that is deterred by the W8.1 requirement doesn't have the determination to make the app either. You might get an extra hobbyist or two to fiddle with the SDK, but that's all this would change.

    You've got good intentions and have certainly identified an important problem. I just don't think this particular solution would be at all effective.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-04-2014 at 10:14 AM. Reason: formatting
    11-04-2014 09:16 AM
  11. colinkiama's Avatar
    You're still missing the point. Getting all the supplies is nothing compared to building the house. Anybody that is deterred by the W8.1 requirement doesn't have the determination to make the app either. You might get an extra hobbyist or two to fiddle with the SDK, but that's all this would change.

    You've got good intentions and have certainly identified an important problem. I just don't think this particular solution would be at all effective.
    Then what is?
    11-04-2014 09:50 AM
  12. Poirots Progeny's Avatar
    Commercial VPN came with the new 8.1.1 update didn't it? Also the app world for bb10 has 130,000 apps which is less than WP which has over 300,000. Amazon gave them 240,000 more apps bringing it to 370,000 apps but like you said some of the apps are missing features are not function correctly.

    The main complaint with WP is the app gap. Ask anyone who uses anything other than WP, they will complain even if the apps they need are there, because someone told them there are no apps (less that android and WP) they won't buy the phone. So they need to make devs jump in the platform.
    Commercial vpn - the majority (and better providers) provide openvpn based services (especially useful if one is operating in an environment where the internet is screened, or vpn services are turned off - ie Hong Kong).

    WP does not yet support openvpn and I'm on 8.1.1 dp on all my devices, with cyan to boot. Being able to encrypt the card and device didn't arrive either, unfortunately.

    You're counting bare numbers but the majority in bb10 are map web wrappers and language packs. No quality at all. WP has the better store and support by far. Bare numbers say nothing. I mean to say thank goodness bb10 has whatsapp - arguably the most used of all message apps - because amazon doesn't. What amazon did was bring filler. It is by no means the google catalogue nor does it guarantee quality.

    I too applaud your intentions but the app issue is tied to sales. MSFT have to work at getting devices out there.
    11-04-2014 09:51 AM
  13. colinkiama's Avatar
    Commercial vpn - the majority (and better providers) provide openvpn based services (especially useful if one is operating in an environment where the internet is screened, or vpn services are turned off - ie Hong Kong).

    WP does not yet support openvpn and I'm on 8.1.1 dp on all my devices, with cyan to boot. Being able to encrypt the card and device didn't arrive either, unfortunately.

    You're counting bare numbers but the majority in bb10 are map web wrappers and language packs. No quality at all. WP has the better store and support by far. Bare numbers say nothing. I mean to say thank goodness bb10 has whatsapp - arguably the most used of all message apps - because amazon doesn't. What amazon did was bring filler. It is by no means the google catalogue nor does it guarantee quality.

    I too applaud your intentions but the app issue is tied to sales. MSFT have to work at getting devices out there.
    They covered every single type of customer from low end to high end, camera freaks, phablet users, flagships in case you haven't forgotten. They have even advertised on to quite a few times, but still the number of apps are are small compared to iOS and Android. Even BB has more.

    What else can explain the app gap in the first place? Without apps, people won't buy windows phones meaning there is little marketshare. With low marketshare, big or small developers won't be determined enough to get windows 8(even if it is not that bad) and create apps for windows phone. Give the tools to all devs. Small devs for local services will consider first. More people come in because of the small apps then the huge devs come in.
    11-04-2014 10:06 AM
  14. Rakesh Rocky2's Avatar
    The windows store search algorithm is a total fail.. We have to get the exact spelling right... Today I typed Facebook in the store but it showed like no apps are available.. What the hell.. I had to search in browser to download it
    11-04-2014 10:12 AM
  15. jmshub's Avatar
    While you already mentioned it, the counter to your argument is there: Mac OSX market share is significantly lower than Windows 8, yet that hasn't hindered iOS development, despite the fact that you need a Mac to develop for it. Especially when you figure in the costs associated there, the absolute cheapest way into a Mac is a $500 Mac Mini, and if you want a laptop, it's starting at $1000. Someone could buy a decent $300 laptop with Windows 8 just to develop apps, if they wanted.
    a5cent likes this.
    11-04-2014 10:52 AM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    What else can explain the app gap in the first place?
    C'mon colinkiama. You've been here long enough to know the answer to that question yourself!

    Market share, market share, market share, market share !!!

    We've still got the vicious app circle we've always had, and until MS comes up with some big... something really big... some killer feature that makes WP very desirable to the masses which allows them to overlook the app gap and negative stigma... something the competition obviously doesn't have, and that is easily demonstrated in television ads... that isn't changing.

    If MS can't go big, then MS might as well go home. Offering a slightly better camera here or an SDK for W7 there won't move the needle. If you want to come up with something that works, you need to think much bigger. Something like this:

    • MS buys T-Mobile
    • Every T-Mobile shop stocks the full range of WP devices, from every OEM, has them all on display, and heavily subsidizes every one of them.
    • The T-Mobile sales force undergoes regular training. All are required to become certified experts at supporting and selling MS services and devices, or leave.
    • All T-Mobile shops become Microsoft stores and visa versa
    • T-Mobile offers all their WP customers day-one WP update distribution guarantees. Every T-Mobile customer gets every WP update for any device on the same day MS releases it.
    • T-Mobile offers free Microsoft sponsored WiFi in all major U.S. cities
    • Microsoft decides to run T-Mobile at cost, with a very small centralized management staff, and craps all over shareholder-value etc. Every penny saved is re-invested into either reducing the cost of people's monthly service bills, or extending their GSM network across the U.S.
    • You can still use any other device of your choice on T-Mobile, but the monthly rates won't be anywhere near as good, but still much better than AT&T's or Verizon's.
    • Microsoft offers Nokia a multi billion dollar contract to extend T-Mobile's GSM and LTE network across the U.S. ,in exchange for the right to eventually purchase their mapping services division.
    11-04-2014 11:11 AM
  17. KeegdnaB42's Avatar
    The windows 8 requirement plays into it but I'd say it's more to do with iOS and Mac. Companies are always going to choose iOS first which means they're hiring Mac users to develop them, and those Mac users are less likely than anyone to want to have to use Windows 8 to port their app to another platform. In essence it comes down to shortsightedness. If the companies were hiring people who weren't complete fanboys the situation would be different. I'm interested to see what would happen if they made the dev tools available on Mac.
    colinkiama likes this.
    11-04-2014 11:21 AM
  18. jmshub's Avatar
    The windows 8 requirement plays into it but I'd say it's more to do with iOS and Mac. Companies are always going to choose iOS first which means they're hiring Mac users to develop them, and those Mac users are less likely than anyone to want to have to use Windows 8 to port their app to another platform. In essence it comes down to shortsightedness. If the companies were hiring people who weren't complete fanboys the situation would be different. I'm interested to see what would happen if they made the dev tools available on Mac.
    If your premise that the vast majority of all mobile development was done on a Macintosh, then perhaps a better solution would be for Microsoft to buy Xamarin to port their iOS code to Windows Phone, as opposed to the SDK running in OSX.
    11-04-2014 12:03 PM
  19. IgorVysoky's Avatar
    In my opinion is just an infinite circle.

    There is not enough devices for people to buy, so there is not enough developers to develop apps, so there are not enough people having those devices so there are not enough apps, because it's worthless developing apps...
    colinkiama likes this.
    11-04-2014 12:07 PM
  20. colinkiama's Avatar
    While you already mentioned it, the counter to your argument is there: Mac OSX market share is significantly lower than Windows 8, yet that hasn't hindered iOS development, despite the fact that you need a Mac to develop for it. Especially when you figure in the costs associated there, the absolute cheapest way into a Mac is a $500 Mac Mini, and if you want a laptop, it's starting at $1000. Someone could buy a decent $300 laptop with Windows 8 just to develop apps, if they wanted.
    And that's where I said in another post that advertising is key to increasing market share. Look at Samsung and Apple with their apps and success. If those people don't know they can even windows phone exists how can they create apps for it in the first place.
    11-04-2014 12:22 PM
  21. colinkiama's Avatar
    If your premise that the vast majority of all mobile development was done on a Macintosh, then perhaps a better solution would be for Microsoft to buy Xamarin to port their iOS code to Windows Phone, as opposed to the SDK running in OSX.
    True but at least provide the option for an SDK for people that do want to make an app from scratch
    11-04-2014 12:31 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    True but at least provide the option for an SDK for people that do want to make an app from scratch
    But then why not just dual boot W8.1 on your Mac? Like I said, you can already develop WP apps on a Mac. That works great. What you can't do is develop WP apps on OSX, but if someone is such a fanboy that installing W8.1 on their Mac is an insurmountable obstacle, then how likely is it that MS providing the SDK will change anything? I think pretty much zero.

    Also note that just providing the SDK isn't nearly enough. MS would also have to port Visual Studio and their entire tool chain over to OSX. That's a gargantuan amount of work.
    11-04-2014 04:35 PM
  23. tgp's Avatar
    Market share, market share, market share, market share !!!
    Is that the reason Google doesn't provide WP apps? I believe it is, but the general consensus here would say otherwise.
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-04-2014 05:08 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    Is that the reason Google doesn't provide WP apps? I believe it is, but the general consensus here would say otherwise.
    I knew that would get me in trouble. I started typing out a longer version, but along the way I decided it was getting too long winded, so I gave up and went with what was simple. With well over 50 million users, the "market share" argument is irrelevant for apps that are distributed globally (in particular for Google that is nothing but a sorry excuse, or lie, although I'm not sure if Google themselves have ever offered that as a reason, or if it's just been put in their mouth), but it is still relevant for apps from your local credit union, mom&pop shop etc, which is where most of WP's remaining app problems lie.

    I don't think the WP community is being inconsistent here.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-05-2014 at 07:47 AM. Reason: slight clarifications + last scentence
    11-04-2014 05:56 PM
  25. tgp's Avatar
    I knew that would get me in trouble. I started typing out a longer version, but along the way I decided it was getting too long winded, so I gave up and went with what was simple. With well over 50 million users, the "market share" argument is irrelevant for apps that are distributed globally (in particular for Google that is nothing but a sorry excuse, or lie, although I'm not sure if Google themselves have ever offered that as a reason, or if it's just been put in their mouth), but it is still relevant for apps from you local credit union, mom&pop shop etc, which is where most of WP's remaining app problems lie.

    I don't think the WP community is being inconsistent here.
    Facebook? Snapchat? Even Instagram's half hearted effort could be in this list. What about them?

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    FinancialP likes this.
    11-04-2014 06:23 PM
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