1. FredBloggs007's Avatar
    So the usual comment from most developers goes along the lines... "we aren't developing an app / game for WP because the user base is too small..."

    Ok, so I can kinda accept this sometimes. However, do you think there are / will be more Apple Watch users than WP users? The reason for asking it that I've just read that Trivia Crack will be developing a version of the app which will run on the Apple Watch. I know that Trivia Crack is available on WP, but I'm assuming (could be wrong) that there are / will be more WP users that Apple Watch users. However, it still appears that developers are being incentivised to side with Apple even though the user base is small - at least for the Apple Watch.

    My basic assumptions may be wrong (and I know that Win10 will change the game), but MS really do need to work with developers more to get more and more apps on their platform in the same way that Apple are doing so.

    Anyone else agree or have any other opinions on this?
    Stiv X likes this.
    04-21-2015 06:12 PM
  2. darkest.white's Avatar
    They are making all those apps for the Apple Watch because they know there are a ton of iSheep who will be herded into buying them
    nohra likes this.
    04-21-2015 06:14 PM
  3. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    Well, Microsoft, so far, has been the Apple Watch's biggest supporter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-21-2015 07:10 PM
  4. Stiv X's Avatar
    Microsoft has always been a software company first, hardware second company. They are also still fighting the "we are a good company" fight.

    I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't say MS is not relevant work the exception of WP market share. So, they are winning the positivity pr game.

    I do wish, however, MS would leave something propriety in WP.
    wpn00b and jlzimmerman like this.
    04-21-2015 07:21 PM
  5. Jas00555's Avatar
    I think there are two things at work here:

    1) AFAIK, these aren't necessarily apps written for the Apple Watch, but they're merely the same app that is tweaked to work on the Watch. Like, the Apple Watch doesn't have a store per se, but you'll see apps in the App Store "add support". This makes it much easier to make an app than writing a WP app from scratch.

    2) Most WP users have low end phones that cost very little. Hell, the Apple Watch costs 5x as much as the most popular WP, the Lumia 520. If you have an Apple Watch, you obviously have a lot of money to waste.
    04-21-2015 07:23 PM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    There's more to it than just sheer numbers. It's profitability. Apple users are known to be big spenders. WP & Android users are notoriously stingy. (Developing for Android still pencils because of the huge amount of users). Apple doesn't need the amount of users Microsoft & Google need, because each user (on average) spends more.

    I do wish, however, MS would leave something propriety in WP.
    As you've heard before, it's market share. Microsoft knows as well as anyone that if if they have a great product, it's practically wasted if they keep it restricted to 2.7% of potential users. Microsoft has found out that proprietary features don't bring users to WP.
    04-21-2015 07:28 PM
  7. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    There's more to it than just sheer numbers. It's profitability. Apple users are known to be big spenders. WP & Android users are notoriously stingy. (Developing for Android still pencils because of the huge amount of users). Apple doesn't need the amount of users Microsoft & Google need, because each user (on average) spends more.



    As you've heard before, it's market share. Microsoft knows as well as anyone that if if they have a great product, it's practically wasted if they keep it restricted to 2.7% of potential users. Microsoft has found out that proprietary features don't bring users to WP.
    I don't think it has anything to do with Window Phone market share anymore. I think it has everything to do with them wanting to be a services company. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we see some crazy ish like iPhone with Bing services, hell, it already basically has them all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-21-2015 10:34 PM
  8. FredBloggs007's Avatar
    All great comments - thanks. However, if MS are indeed a software and services company first (remember Cloud First, Mobile First) why is there always an app gap and resistance from developers to release software and devices for WP?
    04-22-2015 03:12 AM
  9. Torcher Death's Avatar
    All great comments - thanks. However, if MS are indeed a software and services company first (remember CLOUD FIRST, MOBILE FIRST) why is there always an app gap and resistance from developers to release software and devices for WP?
    Because their policy is not 'CLOUD FIRST, WINDOWS PHONE FIRST' & since they themselves put WP behind the others OS, how can you expect others to be any different.
    04-22-2015 04:02 AM
  10. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    Because their policy is not 'CLOUD FIRST, WINDOWS PHONE FIRST' & since they themselves put WP behind the others OS, how can you expect others to be any different.
    Well, their policy is cloud & services first. Services including Windows & Office. The problem is, & this is a very big one, that Windows Phone will never receive the same preferential treatment as Windows until W10 is live on most devices. Then, they could focus on the phone.

    Also, just because Microsoft is a services company, it doesn't mean other companies need to support their operating systems with services of their own. Companies are reluctant to create Windows Phone apps because of the obvious lack of profit. W10 should alleviate that by turning the user base into a billion strong. Microsoft needs to hand deliver the development tools to companies like ADT, BofA, Chase & convince them that Windows is still the largest operating system on the planet.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Stiv X likes this.
    04-22-2015 08:09 AM
  11. theefman's Avatar
    This question, and the others like it on this site is redundant. If its seen as ok for Microsoft to develop for the apple watch then its ridiculous to question why a company that makes their living from software shouldn't as well. Why one rule for Microsoft and another for everyone else?
    04-22-2015 09:03 AM
  12. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    This question, and the others like it on this site is redundant. If its seen as ok for Microsoft to develop for the apple watch then its ridiculous to question why a company that makes their living from software shouldn't as well. Why one rule for Microsoft and another for everyone else?
    You're comparing a company that has been making multi platform software for decades to a 5 year old company. The majority of the apps that people want, such as banking apps, aren't software companies. They are companies that offer services that try to extend their services for customer ease of use. Microsoft's plan to make money - because that's what this is about - is not comparable to other companies. You're like that girlfriend that does something wrong and then replies with "well you left he toilet seat up four weeks ago so I can do this and get away with it"


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Torcher Death likes this.
    04-22-2015 10:10 AM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    You're comparing a company that has been making multi platform software for decades to a 5 year old company. The majority of the apps that people want, such as banking apps, aren't software companies. They are companies that offer services that try to extend their services for customer ease of use. Microsoft's plan to make money - because that's what this is about - is not comparable to other companies. You're like that girlfriend that does something wrong and then replies with "well you left he toilet seat up four weeks ago so I can do this and get away with it"
    What you say sounds logical, but after further thought I don't think it is. Microsoft is a software AND services company. A bank offers a service. Snapchat offers a service.

    Yes, a bank offers a mobile app to "to extend their services for customer ease of use." Well, aren't Microsoft's apps for the same reason? How many smartphone users do not have a PC where they can access those services? Not many.
    04-22-2015 10:33 AM
  14. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    What you say sounds logical, but after further thought I don't think it is. Microsoft is a software AND services company. A bank offers a service. Snapchat offers a service.

    Yes, a bank offers a mobile app to "to extend their services for customer ease of use." Well, aren't Microsoft's apps for the same reason? How many smartphone users do not have a PC where they can access those services? Not many.
    Snapchat wasn't what I was referring to. They are also an infant compared to Microsoft. But their service is strictly software based. Whereas companies like banks or retail stores have physical sites. They can't expend the resources on a platform which isn't growing. I still don't know what snapchat's deal is. But they really don't have many resources to be updating more than two apps from what I understand. Either way, Microsoft's sole business for many years was software and services. Hardware didn't exist. And now it's, arguably, the only windows phone manufacturer that matters. The point that I'm trying to make is that come hell or high water, Microsoft's business is putting their product everywhere. & that means supporting said product. Smaller companies only need to succeed in niche segments.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-22-2015 10:56 AM
  15. tgp's Avatar
    Snapchat wasn't what I was referring to. They are also an infant compared to Microsoft. But their service is strictly software based. Whereas companies like banks or retail stores have physical sites. They can't expend the resources on a platform which isn't growing. I still don't know what snapchat's deal is. But they really don't have many resources to be updating more than two apps from what I understand. Either way, Microsoft's sole business for many years was software and services. Hardware didn't exist. And now it's, arguably, the only windows phone manufacturer that matters. The point that I'm trying to make is that come hell or high water, Microsoft's business is putting their product everywhere. & that means supporting said product. Smaller companies only need to succeed in niche segments.
    OK now I'm completely confused! I agree with what theefman posted above about the double standard. You were refuting him. I was refuting you to back up theefman. Now I think I agree with what you said here!

    I believe what comes across here on WC is not necessarily questioning why a company would develop for Apple Watch, but rather why they would develop for Apple Watch and at the same time ignore Windows Phone.

    Microsoft needs to hand deliver the development tools to companies like ADT, BofA, Chase & convince them that Windows is still the largest operating system on the planet.
    ...if you call an OS with 14% market share "the largest operating system on the planet." It's not anywhere close. And even if it was, the banks do provide a top notch tool for PCs. It's called a "website." For something like a bank, the desktop market holds little value because those users probably wouldn't use the app anyway.
    04-22-2015 11:18 AM
  16. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    OK now I'm completely confused! I agree with what theefman posted above about the double standard. You were refuting him. I was refuting you to back up theefman. Now I think I agree with what you said here!

    I believe what comes across here on WC is not necessarily questioning why a company would develop for Apple Watch, but rather why they would develop for Apple Watch and at the same time ignore Windows Phone.



    ...if you call an OS with 14% market share "the largest operating system on the planet." It's not anywhere close. And even if it was, the banks do provide a top notch tool for PCs. It's called a "website." For something like a bank, the desktop market holds little value because those users probably wouldn't use the app anyway.
    The market share which matters to these companies are computer & mobile/tablet, of which Microsoft is still king.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-22-2015 11:28 AM
  17. Jas00555's Avatar
    The market share which matters to these companies are computer & mobile/tablet, of which Microsoft is still king.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    TECHNICALLY, tgp is correct. Market share is sales within a given time period, and Android is winning that battle. If you had said user base, then you would be correct (1.5 billion Windows vs 1.1 billion Android)
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-22-2015 12:38 PM
  18. Alex Rodriguez Jr.'s Avatar
    TECHNICALLY, tgp is correct. Market share is sales within a given time period, and Android is winning that battle. If you had said user base, then you would be correct (1.5 billion Windows vs 1.1 billion Android)
    You, and the majority of the readers here, obviously understand what I meant lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    04-22-2015 02:45 PM
  19. stephen_az's Avatar
    So the usual comment from most developers goes along the lines... "we aren't developing an app / game for WP because the user base is too small..."

    Ok, so I can kinda accept this sometimes. However, do you think there are / will be more Apple Watch users than WP users? The reason for asking it that I've just read that Trivia Crack will be developing a version of the app which will run on the Apple Watch. I know that Trivia Crack is available on WP, but I'm assuming (could be wrong) that there are / will be more WP users that Apple Watch users. However, it still appears that developers are being incentivised to side with Apple even though the user base is small - at least for the Apple Watch.

    My basic assumptions may be wrong (and I know that Win10 will change the game), but MS really do need to work with developers more to get more and more apps on their platform in the same way that Apple are doing so.

    Anyone else agree or have any other opinions on this?
    Your underlying assumption is wrong since Windows Phone is a stand alone mobile platform and Apple's Watch is a companion product specifically for iPhone users. It is not the small number of initial watch buyers but the massive potential of all iPhone users being targeted. Long and short of it is there is simply no basis for comparison. Every iPhone user already in the ecosystem could be a watch buyer. Growth in sales of Windows phone comes from people not yet in the smartphone game or people switching from another ecosystem. In terms of balancing risk and reward, supporting Apple's watch is an easy decision whereas supporting a low market share OS trying to grow has far more risk in exchange for only incremental or long term reward. Like it or not, people prefer options that look like an easy win over something where you need to project outwards and assume not yet realized growth to break even....
    mj0, Stiv X and Laura Knotek like this.
    04-22-2015 03:12 PM
  20. Mr G Reaper's Avatar
    Speaking as a developer (a really really novice one) microsoft are not easy to program for, ok lets take an example:
    yesterday i learnt that not every phone has an sd card, a big issue as my app saves data to the sd card so that users can access it.
    so i decided to allow the user to select a folder, my app is a universal app that means its windows and windows phone, the code for the gui is different but there is also a shared code, on the windows version, getting a folder was easy took 20 minutes to figure out and implement, the same method however was not allowed for windows phone, on a windows phone you have to use a specific method, suspend your app to load this method, allow the user to select the folder then resume your app passing on the folder, it involved a complete rewrite of one of my core classes, two additional classes, and a near rewrite of the gui class for the phone side.... it took all my free time yesterday to achieve (and ill be honest, there is a lot of that code i had to implement that i dont even understand...i hate adding code i dont understand)
    The msdn docs are pretty tough on novice coders
    The msdn forum is pretty useless, ask for clarification on an msdn doc section you dont understand you will most often get a response linking you to the same doc telling you to read that for help...if you get a response at all.
    stackoverflow are pure evil to a novice coder
    and there are no alternative help avenues (or very very few)

    Then there is the fact microsoft have the monopoly on the store side, if you want to release your app to people it has to be via the store and HAS to be certified, from releasing an update to microsoft to it actually being available can take up to 12 hours (thats the most i have had so far though my most recent update may be trying to beat that record :( though one stage of certification states "usually takes 5 days")

    now android development, its java and apart from my personal hate of how strings are done, its pretty simple. There is help everywhere, tons of very "newb" friendly development forums that will help you get on your feet and explain things, tons od very easy to follow documentation.
    There is alternative markets, or you can just send your mate the apk file and he can install it on his phone straight away no problem.

    Of apple i know nothing.

    These could well be reasons for the difference in numbers between windows phone apps and android.

    As for apple watch, developers will know that its the latest craze and will want to cash in on that, i suspect there will be a hell of a lot of apps for it.

    Number of users:
    my first app has been up a month, i have not advertised it beyond a reddit post and a video of it on youtube, its been downloaded 69 times, thats a lot for a unheard of and niche app (rpg character generator) (only had two people rate the app and not recieved a single donation)
    my second edition which i have not yet advertised has had 2 downloads on phone and 1 on windows and has only been up 2 days.
    This makes me think the windows phone user base is a lot bigger then most people think.
    Stiv X and Makubex1980 like this.
    04-22-2015 03:33 PM
  21. Stiv X's Avatar
    Thanks, Reaper, but Apple also has to approve and certify each app and update, too. Yet, developers don't mind. It seems as though making an app for iOS and Android is low risk, potential for high reward, but Windows apps are considered a waste of time. What I don't understand is why a waste of time concept u nless you are a one person shop writing apps in your spare time.

    If I was a developer, I would make apps for any and everything I could to maximize profit and hire people to help if necessary and successful enough to do so. Developers can be companies that make apps (Rovio, Zynga, Gameloft, etc.), after all. I don't understand why they wouldn't take more risk. So much to gain, so little to lose.
    04-22-2015 04:36 PM
  22. MarkusDindu's Avatar
    Developers build apps for the devices they love, and many of them love and use Apple products. Also, they want to get in on the ground floor of anything that Apple makes. Those folk who made apps for the first iPhones made a killing back then, and they see this watch as another golden opportunity.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-22-2015 06:33 PM
  23. mj0's Avatar
    I think a big part of it is profitability. In regards to Windows Phone Microsoft's stronghold are third world and developing countries, and users in these countries are less likely to spend any significant amount of money on additional applications. Apple users are known to be spend more on apps, I remember a study a couple of years ago where several app developers confirmed that even though the total number of iOS downloads of their app was far below the Android counterpart they were still making more money in total on iOS than Android (both in terms of free vs. non-free app and in-app purchases). Some developers that used to develop for both, iOS and Android, have even abandoned Android since its by far not as profitable as iOS.

    That's what it all comes down to: money. Hence, the obvious answer to the question asked: the Apple Watch is not going to get away with anything because there isn't anything to get away with. Apple users willing to spend money on the Apple Watch will also be willing to spend money on additional applications, or on iPhone apps that combined with an Apple Watch will offer this or that functionality. That's the bottom line.

    That said being an iPhone user I've been watching the Apple Watch closely but have decided against it for now. Maybe in a couple of years after the first few iterations have been out and about.
    04-23-2015 04:02 AM

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