Will Cshell available for all w10m?

ads13

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Hi Dan!
After reading the shell article. One thing came into my mind. Will it available for only w10 compatible mobiles including 1gb ram phones or for snap dragon 6xx +?
 

milkyway

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Call me a pessimist on this topic but I do think, there's a difference between "runs on" and "is officially being rolled out to". W10M did run on a number of devices it was later not supported on.
But as we say in Germany, "hope dies last".

I would call you a realist. I don't think it will roll out the existing phones, but I wanted to point out the fact, that one could spoof the registry to install it anyways (like you can install W10M on a Lumia 520 if you wish to do so)
 

Drael646464

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I would call you a realist. I don't think it will roll out the existing phones, but I wanted to point out the fact, that one could spoof the registry to install it anyways (like you can install W10M on a Lumia 520 if you wish to do so)

If its not rolling out to the existing phones, what non-existant phones will it be rolling out to exactly?

Will they roll it out, only to imaginary phones? :p
 

Drael646464

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MS has 3 new mobile devices in the works, HP is currently working on one new phone. These will get the "new" W10M

Only Andromeda and the HP device I could consider plausibly "confirmed" and even then they haven't been announced let alone given a release date. At best we are looking at 2018 for any Microsoft handsets IMO, and an HP refresh even if this year, won't be even close to the number of users of other handsets. Andromeda also runs its own separate OS. So while that might get new features, we can pretty much leave that out of any win10m discussion, leaving just the HP, if we were to count our chickens before they hatched.

I think you are missing my point.

I'll break to 3 simple ones

1) Handover.

Even if all these three, currently unconfirmed, potentially imaginary phones were released this year, along with HP's likely but potentially imaginary phone - what kind of downright stupidity would it be commercially to immediate drop all support for your only existing customers, before you even know how the new devices will perform in the market? MSFT has a long history of generous support windows, and I am positive it understands the notion of transition and handover given its known track history - it supports phones long after apple and google would have given them the shaft, Win10 potentially has an installed userbase of around 2.5% of the US market alone. While they are not buying new phones and thus creating 'marketshare', shafting them would be a commercial mistake. MSFT needs to be nice to its existing fans, as it has been with prior support windows, even through all the reboots.

2) The actual code itself. Cshell was clearly _written_ for a 32 bit phone. It RUNS on a 32 bit phone. No new snapdragon cpus are 32 bit. Any new phone would be 64 bit, because all snapdragon processors out recently are 64 bit. It would run a different codebase for the OS itself. If msft planned on dumping all current 32 bit phones, there would be no sense at all in coding such features for the 32 bit version of the operation system at all, and it would not run on such phones. Why would MSFT write 32 bit code if it wasn't going to any devices? Surely they would write it in 64 bit code and it would fail to run on any 32 but device if what you claimed was true. There's just no way that makes sense. It must by sheer logic, come to at least one 32 bit handset and by virtue of that logic, most likely extend to the popular, still high performing models in that archecture (baring performance requirements if those end up being a limitation for some models).

3) No phones/Timing. All of those supposed phones could be prototypes that never get released, like the surface mini, or they could get released in 2019, or they could be figments of our imagination. I could be grey by the time they release a surface phone. Andromeda, yeah it'll come but its not exactly a phone in any traditional sense - its untested in the market - and the HP - well that's a pretty elite phone for some business people. Windows on arm and windows s needs space to breath in order to aid the UWP platform before any mobile release would even be that attractive....and windows on arm on tablets and laptops isn't even out yet.
The late summer updates are nearly here, the fall creators update for PC, with timeline etc, that was promised to win10m is less than a year away. At least some of these updates will hit before windows on arm is even available. What your proposing is that four windows 10 phones, new ones are released between now and they end of the year, all four popular existing phones are dumped like a hotcake, because who cares about customers, and MS will just count on the success of their new phones, because commerce is always a certainty for a company that has more repeated failures in mobile space than blackberry :p

I think many people doubt there will be even one phone released this year. I suspect HP may do their refresh this year, but I doubt we will see anything from MS. Maybe Andromeda too (but running its own unique OS for its dual screens, not win10m). One new phone that is very expensive, enterprise focused, as the only supported win10m phone would be silly.

The timescale makes no sense. MS has been slowly unfolding this plan for years. Why would it take this delicate operation and potentially mangle it, just to get more phones in peoples hands, if the UWP platform isn't more mature to deal with it, or present customers might feel so jilted, as the only near certain consumers of the new devices, the whole thing just fails?

I can't imagine what you are seeing here. Help me out, tell me, what you see happening between say now and this time next year? I literally can't picture how you see this going down.

I think if you spelled it out, I might understand where we differ, or understand your POV in some way.
 
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milkyway

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Good points Drael, but in some ways you did not get what I was saying. I didn't say "phones" but "mobile devices" (only the one from HP is clearly a phone). And I did not say that these new mobile devices will come out this year.

I think the new mobile devices AND the new W10M will come out sometime 2018 or maybe even 2019.
You are a little bit optimistic about MSFT and caring about existing phone/W10M users. With every W10M update they lost around 50% of their user base. That was pure intention, because they did not have to cut the support (e.g. the most recent feature2 build runs great on the Lumia 1020).
I think MSFT wants to completely wipe their user base before they launch their next attempt at W10M
 

Drael646464

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Good points Drael, but in some ways you did not get what I was saying. I didn't say "phones" but "mobile devices" (only the one from HP is clearly a phone). And I did not say that these new mobile devices will come out this year.

I think the new mobile devices AND the new W10M will come out sometime 2018 or maybe even 2019.
You are a little bit optimistic about MSFT and caring about existing phone/W10M users. With every W10M update they lost around 50% of their user base. That was pure intention, because they did not have to cut the support (e.g. the most recent feature2 build runs great on the Lumia 1020).
I think MSFT wants to completely wipe their user base before they launch their next attempt at W10M

Anyone can run creators update via insiders preview, including of tonnes of phones from 8.1. That's not officially supported, but they didn't have to do that. A whole range of 8.1 phones got win10. They didn't have to do that.

Apple and android phone makers generally don't do that sort of thing. Blackberries never done that.

I think windows 10 mobile users have very high expectations of their phones being supported indefinitely. But, I think objectively MSFT is very generous with support windows, and I can see why - with such a small loyal base, and such a long journey to their endgame, its important to retain some customer loyalty.

I only just got a 950 a few weeks ago. I'm sure there will be a transition at some point to 64 bit win10m, and the new Andromeda OS, probably beginning next year some time - but I don't think that will be all of a sudden, more like something that is phased in.

I'm sure at some point support will be dropped for current phones, but I don't see that happening yet.

I don't think they want to drop their userbase at all. If they did, they would have provided such generous support windows, conversion from 8.1 to 10, creators to anyone who really wants it etc. I think they want to if possible retain some of that loyal userbase, and convert them to the new gear. Hence why they have tried to treat them to a higher standard than any other mobile OS maker has.

Looking at the history myself, and having been on other platforms, I am not sure why windows mobile users feel MSFT has treated them harshly or with a lack of support. It doesn't make sense to me. They have intentionally gone beyond the call of duty.
But of course support is never forever with phones. Sometimes its just not economically sound to support phones that won't run new software without lots of bugs.
And I suppose its possible that could occur to current phones already this year, but that has to be balanced with wanting to transition those new users to new hardware.

After all, whatever MSFT has cooked up next - the most certain customers are the ones who've used windows phones, or are windows fans. The rest is an unknown. You want those existing folk to be a little happy, whether they are android users, or win10m users, with their mfst phone experience, so the next offering looks attractive.
 

milkyway

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I have no resentments against Microsofts update policy. I think it's "OK". The situation is definitely better than with Android, but certainly not on par with iOS.

What I have problems with is official statements like "All Lumias will get the update to W10 Mobile" while it's not true. But that's another story ;)
 

Drael646464

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I have no resentments against Microsofts update policy. I think it's "OK". The situation is definitely better than with Android, but certainly not on par with iOS.

What I have problems with is official statements like "All Lumias will get the update to W10 Mobile" while it's not true. But that's another story ;)

Apple have only a few phones to support each gen, and they still drop support regularly, like anyone else does. You can't get ios 11 on an iPhone 5, which is expected and reasonable but they also included no backwards compatibility for 32 bit apps, something Microsoft would not do on mobile or on PC (Actually not even sure there is such a thing as a 32 bit or 64 bit uwp, don't think it works that way, but all the same, that's a very apple move, and not consumer or developer centric but rather "apple-centric"). I see apples support as better in a way, and worse in others, and yet also entirely a great deal easier, especially for a company making more money in tech than anyone else almost entirely from phones. if apple were in msft's shoes having to potentially support more than a dozen phone models across a whole new OS core with a low userbase, I doubt very much they'd do what msft did.

Perhaps that's a bit apples and oranges, but I think Microsoft "tries" for its own selfish reasons. It's often the case that the "little guy" goes the extra mile for customers, and in phones, and in total profits, msft is no longer top dog. Of course conversely with very little profits or marketshare there are limits to what can reasonably spent on such efforts - ie very little.

Yeah, Microsoft did make some snafu's by promising things which were too technically and economically difficult to deliver. There are way too many Lumia handsets to be promising to support them all into windows 10, without more significant money invested in bugfixing. An OS core move across a fair variety of hardware from a smaller development team with a smaller budget was an overly ambitious task. And many of those phones are completely incapable of updating at a performance level. They might have wanted to garner loyalty from users, but they should never have made that promise. They should have saved the promises till after the code was more mature.

Which in part is I suppose why, having I think learnt that lesson, they are keeping such promises more vague. Timeline and files on demand are coming to win10m, according to Microsoft but when and which models was never stated. What we go instead was some vague hand waving at build and that's it. Of course people might also want more detailed answers ever if that isn't possible to do so accurately.....but better to be vague than lead people on.
 
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Drael646464

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I think my Priv getting Android O is more likely than that too.

I suspect CShell is just some internal under-the-hood work that won't manifest for any consumer for at least another year in any form.

It either goes on new phones or current ones. They don't code for kicks, it costs money. If you don't think current phones will get it, it's logical you think there will be new phones?....Its kind of a binary situation - either/or.

So reading between the lines, you think there will be new phones, but not "soon"?
 

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