10-02-2017 07:01 PM
58 123
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  1. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    Two things.

    First, Thurrot knows what he's talking about. Yes, he is a naysayer and a dream killer, but he is a realist. Much better than listening to these apologists.

    Second, its not like we're getting a cursor with our Win32 apps, with the screen as a trackpad. Anything we'll run will most likely be sandboxed, emulated, scaled, etc. Even if the phone is capable of doing that it simply is not the most practical way of moving forward. It won't be the same UI we get on the desktop. Maybe in the case of UWP apps, but that's about it.

    The best that we can expect from this is that developers create for Windows 10 desktop, or even Windows 10 S, UWP, whatever, and that the phone is capable of running the same apps without any additional work from the developer. Then you can run SoundCloud, and all of those network TV apps and whatever else the way in which it was intended. And we'll have apps, because who doesn't want to develop for desktop Windows 10. People act like developers are going to cut their nose to spite their face because they hate Windows 10 Mobile just that much.

    I don't know what Surface Phone is going to run or what it all entails. But an ARM phone, a real processor worth paying for in a phone with real possibilities, can definitely help out mobile devices running Windows 10 going forward.

    And stuff like Continuum, Windows Hello? Every phone running ARM should be able to handle those things. I assume the phones will have 4 GB RAM or more, and more than a trivial amount of storage. Like 256 GB or more. Really can't see the downside to this.
    07-31-2017 11:43 AM
  2. sweatshopking's Avatar
    DOA.
    windows has lost entirely to android. MS blew it over and over.
    CraigCole likes this.
    07-31-2017 11:48 AM
  3. Chris Stevens1's Avatar
    MS has given up on the competing with the current state of smart phones and is focusing on the next "thing", an Ultimate Mobile Device (UMD).

    Full windows 10 and Cshell allow MS and developers to concentrate on one platform not two. I'm pretty sure that MS's first UMD will be referred to by fans as a Surface Phone, but not by MS.

    MS will say this is some thing else, not a phone. If it is successful in the business market, MS will be happy to let it spill over to consumers, but a consumer focus will not happen first thing.
    ralexand56 likes this.
    07-31-2017 12:07 PM
  4. cBickmeier's Avatar
    One Thing I have forgotten:

    Think about this: Thanks to Windows on ARM, the next HoloLens iterations will be "a phone" too... lets imagine a HoloLens that is so smal that you can wear it like normal glasses (in 5-1ß years from now)... there you have it: the Smartphone is dead and MS back in the game (because MS-glasses are the only which can replace your Smartphone AND every other computing device) ;-)
    07-31-2017 12:15 PM
  5. MikeB0514's Avatar
    It's more about getting these Win32 desktop apps running on smaller devices (not just 6" phones, but even small 8-10" 'cellular' PCs) en mass, and thus enticing the developers to optimize their UI's for these smaller devices (UWA) - which has proven to be a huge challenge for Microsoft. Without widespread support away from Win32 and towards something more adaptable to *all* form factors (whether UWP or something else), MS will not be prepared for "the next big thing"
    07-31-2017 12:48 PM
  6. mech1164's Avatar
    The whole PC on a phone is going about it the wrong way. It's more about you'll have everything with you regardless. If I could just have a small handheld as the core. Then plugging in to do more complicated work is a no brainier.

    Cshell is what makes this all work. On the go it looks and acts like WP10 no muss no fuss. Slide over and it's a small laptop screen. Plug it in and you have your whole desktop with KVM support.

    What will sell this though is something that just came out Win10 S. This is Microsoft's goal of moving programs to the store. If they can do that then all of it falls into place.

    That though is something that's not clear yet.
    07-31-2017 12:54 PM
  7. ACF1's Avatar
    I don't know if this has been addressed because I only read a handful of replies, but to me WoA strategy is very simple.

    For desktop, it is hard to justify Windows S, because while security and performance endurance through the life of the device is important, a lot of desktop users were quite happy with Windows 7. In fact, there r a lot of people who haven't upgraded yet.

    So WoA strategy comes in two places. Very cheap laptops using Windows S and Arm CPU, and tablets. Then you flood the market with these devices trying to compete with Android tablets, ipads and chromebooks. Just like Windows RT was supposed to do without the "I can't run my win32 app". Yes, the developer would have to update their application using project centennial, but it is a big step closer, and a possibility that wasn't there in WinRT. This strategy have the odds to be successful in the long term. In 20 years, most apps we use on windows will be UWP apps, so it seems a No brainer.

    If this strategy starts sitting in with the market earlier, then you are bringing a UWP app ecosystem to all devices, which is what Win10 mobile lacks. So it is not about bringing full desktop to the phone. it is about mobile devices getting the windfall of that strategy and hopefully that turns into a successful phone venture.

    Now, you say, so isn't Win10 mobile capable of running desktop UWP apps already and still we are not seeing UWP mobile apps coming to the store? Yes, but my earlier point is that there is little incentive to get UWP apps on the desktop to begin with, as most of us use a browser or Win32 apps on desktop. WoA will be incentive enough for developer to want to develop UWP as opposed to Win 32 because of the lower end devices and tablets. Also, UWP app APIs are getting better as UWP matures, hopefully one day matching/surpassing all the Win32 api lineup.
    07-31-2017 01:31 PM
  8. Wevenhuis's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    For personal use I liked progress of Microsoft's continuum a lot, combined with uwp pps. Back in the windows mobile fays I was missing such a convenient feature for using a text editor to write documents and a diary. For entertainment a an easy projection of a photo alideshow or watching a movie was a nice extra. And continuum supports that on windows 10 mobile. The only thing two things missing for me is to be able to open and use 2 apps side by side for multitasking, drag and drop and a bit of productivity.

    The latter and lack of uwo support is what I'm missing with windows 10 mobile for business. All else the windows 10 mobile with continuum design would have been great for a mobile PC in a small smartphone package would have been fine. For my work for several clients they are using a few win32 programs that are essential. If they could be package as uwo with no effort and eun over a secure connection on mobile I wouldn't need a laptop.
    I don't need to use windows on a virtual environment. Nor do I want to. My experience is that the UI input is slow and buggy when in a mobile environment.
    I think microoaft was on the right track with continuum. I'm not seeing the value with windows 10 on ARM. But I also think this is because microsoft is not clear on what they want to do with this. They call it "mobile" but it isn't clear if windows 10 on ARM is going to be a pc formfactor, which would remind me of a clover trail or atom type pc/tablet range.
    A smartphone would likely be a surface phone type device, yet rumours seem to point to a tablet device. I don't see myself using this as a phone. I don't see the value in that. I will want a phone with that. I think the windows 10 mobile is the better approach, otherwise I would still need to use two devices, likely even three. But I don't need three windows 10 devices. I really only need one for personal, business and phone.
    I am hoping microsoft wil still continue developing windows 10 mobile for current devices. The feature improvements are minor.
    07-31-2017 01:39 PM
  9. L0n3N1nja's Avatar
    Windows 10 running on ARM will do nothing for phones, will be great for tablets. Intel Atom has had no improvement in years and the new ARM chips are faster and more energy efficient. Expect more great and compact 2 in 1 designs that are actually an improvement over what's been on the market 3 years.
    07-31-2017 01:42 PM
  10. roystreet's Avatar
    What MS is trying to accomplish is very powerful & looks awesome. It would be amazing if they pull it off (and release it)...I know they can. It's exciting to see a device that doesn't need any type of RDP, VNC, etc. What I mean is, I don't want to have to have another device (My PC or some cloud service) to make it work like a full blown PC (or similar to that). It's nice to have RDP capability, but to me it's not worth it - Android & iOS already can do that to some degree. I remember seeing an app for iOS that allowed you to connect to your PC & run full blown Windows. Of course none of it was really optimized for touch based or mobile functionality. I don't think it ever really took off either. (That was before Windows 10)

    Unfortunately, besides dabbling with it some initially, I would have no use for this. I personally don't think most people are looking for this type of one size fits all device. This concept seems like it may have more potential for businesses & not the average user. We commonly see this happening all the time in the existing world where a user uses 2 devices & are quite happy with that. Maybe the current competitors out there don't have an existing OS that appears to have the same flexibility, but that hasn't really hindered their market share any.

    What I think would be wisest for enterprise (Some businesses already do this) is make business apps that work for the two main mobile OS's out there. Why? Because the user gets to keep their current (iOS or Android) device they use for personal use & that have a large ecosystem. Even if they have a work device that they have to leave at work, if it's using the same iOS or Android OS they aren't having to learn a new mobile OS than the one they use at home already.

    Windows mobile (Or whatever you want to call it today) is great looking, but do people want to have to learn another mobile OS for their job?

    Microsoft can innovate all they want, but two things hold them back from ever really being successful in the market. One, developers, in the Windows mobile world, when you look for apps.... The second reason, they don't keep supporting their own devices or OS's. We invest into the ecosystem, get excited about the next thing coming out, but get concerned that now my device won't be supported any more.

    I'm afraid Microsoft is innovating & simply giving their competitors the ideas they need for their next update. The iPad is now getting more capabilities to essentially be a device that can seriously compete with Windows hybrids & win or keep customers. Google is giving users the ability for the Chromebook to run the vast amount of Android apps. I think both of these changes were heavily influenced by Microsoft's success in essentially creating the new hybrid market we have today.

    I'm sure others can come up with other reasons why MS is holding themselves back.
    07-31-2017 02:48 PM
  11. Jason Rosenthal's Avatar
    Most people won't care if their computer is RISC or CISC. If it's a windows box, it needs to run all windows software well.
    07-31-2017 02:56 PM
  12. Cosmin Petrenciuc's Avatar
    Still we have the missing app in mobile mode problem. If, in order to be able to properly use an app I need to dock my mobile device, I don't see too many people embracing this new device. Many people already have a laptop or a desktop computer at home. I don't think they are going to ditch them on favor of a new device.
    And, as another member had already pointed out, the docks aren't widely spread.
    TgeekB likes this.
    07-31-2017 03:06 PM
  13. sinime's Avatar
    Apps. If you can run say bluestacks and install any Android app then the os has a good chance. If you can't install Android or ios apps then phones running Windows are McDoomed simple as that.
    I have a sneaking suspicion that bluestacks wouldn't run well on a mobile device with an arm processor.

    They just need to get a 10% market share and devs will port to it... Although that may be a target MS can't hit.
    07-31-2017 03:45 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    One Thing I have forgotten:

    Think about this: Thanks to Windows on ARM, the next HoloLens iterations will be "a phone" too... lets imagine a HoloLens that is so smal that you can wear it like normal glasses (in 5-1ß years from now)... there you have it: the Smartphone is dead and MS back in the game (because MS-glasses are the only which can replace your Smartphone AND every other computing device) ;-)
    Except Apple may beat them to it, again.
    07-31-2017 04:20 PM
  15. Vinicius Castro's Avatar
    I gave up, bought a Oneplus and I'm very satisfied. Microsoft's going to have to do some miracle to have me as a client again, it's a lot of work to be swapping system.
    roystreet likes this.
    07-31-2017 07:24 PM
  16. MullenWP's Avatar
    I can think of 3 problems. If these 3 problems can't be solved, WoA doesn't help.
    1. Mobile apps. Actually, it's not about the apps that suitable for mobile, but the apps that currently only available on mobile and you can't complete the task with your PC. Maybe you need that to control your smart home device, to participate some event, to check news, or to play video games (e.g., Nintendo Switch). Nowadays more and more services only available on mobile apps, and they don't even have web portal. WoA can only replicate desktop experience, but that's still not enough.
    I know some may say the device is for a specific market and it's ok to not having those apps. But is that true? For any individual (other than die-hard fan), that means they need another phone to complete the everyday tasks. Meanwhile, the competitors are also working on docking experience. If there's limitation set for WoA (e.g., only selected apps from Store, like WinS), it's possible that even for the specific market, competitors have better overall experiences.
    2. Stability. W10M is so buggy, and the API is so limited and broken. Sometimes I could understand why devs abandon their app or don't fix some issue, not because they are lazy, but because they can't do that: either there's no such API, or the function they depends on is buggy on W10M. I don't think WoA can fix that as well, if not introducing more bugs.
    3. Trust. How could devs and customers trust yet another reboot? If it's just the first or second times, it's ok. But this is the 4th time. I assume it will take really great effect to build the trust again this time.

    I really hope that besides WoA, there's Android side-load app support (with limitation, e.g., number of apps), so at least problem 1 could really get fixed.
    07-31-2017 07:36 PM
  17. ralexand56's Avatar
    Windows on ARM won't make a difference. The key here is that LTE chip that every ARM processor comes with that can make a difference. MS will need a game changing mobile device to pull it off, though, meaning original iPhone level game changing hardware. What that lte chip will allow them to do is get subsidized hardware delivered to consumers by tmobile, att, Verizon etc., so that poor people can afford these devices. Once consumers become used to having a full powered, always on pc that can take notes, make calls in a pinch etc. then maybe the sure numbers could drive dev support. But again, that will take some sexy hardware to pull off. All the naysayers saying the game is over doesn't know the tech market very well. Same was said about windows, same was said about Nokia, netscape, Motorola. Market leaders are constantly upended and few people see it coming until it's too late.
    07-31-2017 09:53 PM
  18. GreyFox7's Avatar
    Maybe in 20 years or so, when all those places have docks.
    We used to call that boiling the ocean. When everything has to be replaced or upgraded in order to take advantage of a minor technology enhancement.
    TgeekB likes this.
    08-01-2017 07:55 AM
  19. AbstractKiller's Avatar
    Sorry, I got into a bit of a rant in the last paragraph (it's frustrating to follow Microsoft in their efforts, but as a Brit I do love an underdog)...

    Yes, certainly: in all fairness I wouldn't take any issue if Microsoft were straight-up and honest - none of us can expect that aged handsets/devices will or should be supported forever - every consumable in this world has an expected end of life (no offense friends here: but the same applies to the x20/x30 ranges - you really shouldn't expect forever support and you can spoof your device type if you want to continue using your 920/930 etc. with latest builds). The point is more that we know builds exist and work (albeit likely doggedly on existing hardware - the positive for X3/950 users may be that the same device spoofing may be an option - to be seen).

    My big gripe is that they won't even acknowledge Mobile or Windows Mobilke users (ahem, their "Insiders"!) and tell us "Winter is Coming" - except for minor excerpts or throw-away comments nested within wider announcements. We know they haven't dropped "Mobile" - that would spell the end of Windows (full-stop) - maybe not today, but portability and smartphones dominate browsing and % usage of "computers".

    All they need to do is give us some update - even if it is simply an update to their strategy.

    I do honestly expect that internal builds are in testing ready for a heavy push of a new generation of hardware (we've already seen the Cshell demo already mentioned) - likely staged:
    i) Allow some initial Windows 10 S userbase, telemetry and feedback;
    ii) Gain Cloud-Services buy-in and reliance from 3rd Party OS users;
    iii) Push WoA Tablets
    (All of the above further building both Microsoft dependency and/or users to entice UWP developers)
    iv) Surface "Phone" (personally, I think I like "Surface Pocket" best)
    v) OEM partners
    08-01-2017 09:10 AM
  20. Lepoete's Avatar
    I see a 6" phone, or is it a tablet that can make phone calls that have many docking possibilities. Give it a 6" keyboard dock and you can have full Windows with keyboard anytime you want carried in your pocket or attached at your belt (see GDP pocket PC as an example to start with). Give it a desktop dock and it can be your office computer. Dock through USB-C and any PC/laptop can become its monitor (it would be great to also enable auto-mount of drives from the docked computer as well).

    Miracast should be there as well like on current W10M phones but I'm not a big fan because it's slow.
    08-01-2017 09:13 AM
  21. Manny067's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    I've used Windows phones, and I think they have the coolest display. But our main gripe is the lack of more of the popular apps. Maybe we should conduct a survey to see which ones we would really like to see added, and forget all the thousands of unnecessary ones - just give us the best! I mean, who wants to choose from 100 flashlight apps!
    08-01-2017 09:38 AM
  22. Gunbust3r's Avatar
    Seeing as it's been months since the announcement of Win 10 on ARM and they are still keeping demos and performance numbers secret tells me it runs like a dog. Atom speed at best and running on an Atom convertible is still painful, will only be worse working in the power/thermal envelope of an handset.
    08-01-2017 10:41 AM
  23. jack69453's Avatar
    No it will not. On tablets for Prosumers and enterprise it will be great. But for consumers; not even close.
    08-01-2017 11:08 AM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    No it will not. On tablets for Prosumers and enterprise it will be great. But for consumers; not even close.
    I consider this far too superficial to be of much value. Why will it be great for prosumers and the enterprise but not for consumers? This is thrown around all over the place but never explained.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    08-01-2017 11:34 AM
  25. dustwalker13's Avatar
    "Is Windows 10 on ARM really the savior Windows phone fans are hoping for?"

    no ...
    ... ms has already stated it is not meant for phones.

    however since ms is ignoring and actively torturing windows mobile users with neglect and obviouse disinterest, the few fans left have been grasping at straws for years now and right now Win10 on ARM is the least sh*tty straw ms has out there ... even as it is declared not to be for mobile at all by ms itself.
    08-01-2017 12:43 PM
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