1. iSeeiSheep's Avatar
    Dan,

    I for one am a pretty hardcore Microsoft fan, but I have to throw in the towel in certain cases for my home automation use cases. I still sport a Lumia 950 XL and live with it because I use Outlook, Edge, Cortana, and rarely an app like a flashlight or a tip calculator.

    On PC however I find myself FORCED to use an iPhone or iPad... sadly I have these devices in my home. Wife sports and iPad and iPhone, but I need the iPad due to gaps in home automation.

    Doesn't Microsoft recognize this ultimately drives away sales?

    My issue:

    Wink 2 hub - no app for Windows
    August Home Lock and Camera - no app for Windows
    I am sure the list is much longer since these two are the on my personal list.

    I would like to see a poll on Windows Central to capture a list of apps people want on Windows 10. This growing list of apps is a direct cause and effect of the missing mobility device. Can we gather up info from all our users and blast the topic back at Microsoft to elicit a response or at least improve awareness?

    We need you to be our voice Dan!
    07-28-2018 10:38 PM
  2. Elky64's Avatar
    Truly believe you're flogging a dead horse here. Dan's or anyone else's voice isn't going to do a darn bit of good. Just look back over the past 3 or so years and tell me what those voices were able to achieve w/MS, slim pickin's if you ask me - MS is going to do what MS does and no poll is going to change it that I can foresee.

    And we have to chuckle when comments like this are made (misconstrued on my part maybe?) "I still sport a Lumia 950 XL and live with it because I use Outlook, Edge, Cortana, and rarely an app like a flashlight or a tip calculator". Can assure you my mobile phone (non-WP) has many apps just as important to me as those you've mentioned for PC (that are important to you), and considering we use our phone more frequently than a PC it's imperative they be available. So what you can live with many others cannot. Essentially, mobile is no longer a fad as people are relying on them more and more each day just as they've been doing with computers for decades.
    07-29-2018 01:41 PM
  3. Drael646464's Avatar
    Personally I wouldn't buy anything that doesn't at least have a web app. That's poor consumer support, and probably speaks to a limited audience, and service backing. There's plenty of home automation that works with the windows platform.

    Plus, smartphones are actually in a downturn, and tablets too - both markets are shrinking in established markets (whereas PCs, and believe it or not, just recently feature phones are rising). Definately smartphone OSes have peaked out, market wise, outside of developing markets, and I think OEMs have overestimated them, as well as consumers. I mean, yes they are big - as big as PCs, but for example feature phones still outnumber iphones. The ipad whilst doing better than android tablets, has still shrunk from a few years back. Reality is mobile OSes aren't a different thing, just a diversification in our now sea of devices. And now we have so many, you really can't rely on any individual having x operating system.

    Anyone with any sense should have a platform agnostic option - a web app, a PWA, something. Having platform specific apps, is a likely sign that your whatever it is, will be floating in no support space in five years. And if it's something built into your home, that's kind of a bummer.
    ochhanz likes this.
    07-29-2018 06:35 PM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    Personally I wouldn't buy anything that doesn't at least have a web app. That's poor consumer support, and probably speaks to a limited audience, and service backing. There's plenty of home automation that works with the windows platform.

    Plus, smartphones are actually in a downturn, and tablets too - both markets are shrinking in established markets (whereas PCs, and believe it or not, just recently feature phones are rising). Definately smartphone OSes have peaked out, market wise, outside of developing markets, and I think OEMs have overestimated them, as well as consumers. I mean, yes they are big - as big as PCs, but for example feature phones still outnumber iphones. The ipad whilst doing better than android tablets, has still shrunk from a few years back. Reality is mobile OSes aren't a different thing, just a diversification in our now sea of devices. And now we have so many, you really can't rely on any individual having x operating system.

    Anyone with any sense should have a platform agnostic option - a web app, a PWA, something. Having platform specific apps, is a likely sign that your whatever it is, will be floating in no support space in five years. And if it's something built into your home, that's kind of a bummer.
    When you say smartphones are in a downturn, you mean sales correct? Not the number in use. Just want to be sure because smartphones, I believe, aren’t going anywhere soon. More people own them now than ever before. It’s not like people are going to go back to only using a desktop.
    07-29-2018 06:55 PM
  5. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    When you say smartphones are in a downturn, you mean sales correct? Not the number in use. Just want to be sure because smartphones, I believe, aren’t going anywhere soon. More people own them now than ever before. It’s not like people are going to go back to only using a desktop.
    The reason why smartphone sales are declining is because there are few people who don't already have one. There are few new customers switching from feature phones these days. Additionally, other than we phone geeks on forums such as this, the majority of consumers don't upgrade their phones every year or every two years. The average Joe or average Jane replaces a phone only when necessary (the old phone is broken or no longer suitable).
    dellaster, libra89 and TgeekB like this.
    07-29-2018 09:31 PM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    When you say smartphones are in a downturn, you mean sales correct? Not the number in use. Just want to be sure because smartphones, I believe, aren’t going anywhere soon. More people own them now than ever before. It’s not like people are going to go back to only using a desktop.
    Yes sales. What typically happens in a tech market with a new product is like this:

    1) Lots of hype everyone buys one. Uptake of product. Premium product focus. High upgrade cycle (was about 2 years)

    2) Saturation is met. Everyone who will own one has one. Premium markets slump. People buy cheaper products. Price point competition. Reduced upgrade cycle (now about 4-5 years), currently midrange is the energy market, but eventually it will be budget.

    One thing about a reduced level of relevant innovation is that it becomes easier and easier to imitate. Hard to make a copy of a flagship on first release. 5 years later, when all the components are readily available, it becomes pretty easy.

    I knew we would reach saturation a few years ago, at some point in the future. It took longer than I thought, but we have finally reached saturation in developed markets. That means, long term, it's game over for the "boom" of premium devices.

    What a boom it was! unprecedented tech adoption rates.

    They'll still sell, but nowhere near as many, and OEMs will have to look for the next big thing, the new wave to catch. And they'll try and sell tingle dongles, widgets and other useless gimmicks. And also many will enter into budget devices.

    I think this is compounded in particular with phones because of diminishing returns. It's more like say, the TV market, than the PC market. With PCs there is ever more demanding applications - video editing, gaming, music and so on. With a TV, you get to a certain point of size, and display and sound quality and you are like "okay, that's enough".

    I think smartphones are pretty similar. For most people, you can only camera, and facebook so well. After that, it's slow upgrades, little fuss, price comparison, and rather like more shopping for a camera for family snaps, or a feature phone, rather than a new car, gaming rig, or VR headset. Nothing super compelling, you just want something about as competent as the last phone, screwdriver, or Bluetooth earpiece you owned.

    Indeed, quite surprisingly feature phones had there first growth uptick recently in developed markets. It's thought that between developing markets, and things lifestyle minimalism, JaiOS will surpass iOS in market dominance.

    With the addition of things like google assistant, google maps, social media apps - I think we might find feature phones "advance" to the point where more users are satisfied with the functionality. And smart watches, tablets and other devices may pick up the slack. I'm not sure exactly what product might fill that niche, but I feel like you could cover maybe 30 percent of users basic applications with a simple low cpu device with a few apps.

    If you could make a feature phone with those apps, responsive, easy UI, and a passable camera, and cheap - after the buzz of smartphones wears off, I feel like you could see a bit of a rise in marketshare there. Just a theory.

    But there are some downsides to the slab that become apparent. They are large and fragile and expensive, and you have to carry them everywhere. A fitness band might replicate enough of the functionality to save you some greif there, as could a smart feature OS. They also are sort of engrossing, and have a lot of notifications. It's not unlike having a TV blaring in your pocket. Something more quiet, more simple might suit people who want to enjoy the outdoors, their social life etc. At least for some of the time (perhaps a secondary device).

    So I think beyond the economics, the development and the market theory - there's a sort of pragmatic cultural element. Now that phones are "no longer cool" to ordinary people, and sort of ho hum, what place do we want mobile tech to have in our lives. Do we want it more engrossing, like foldable tablets, AR and so on? Less engrossing, and more simple, like smart feature OSes, and smart watches?

    I think that becomes an individual experience, and reflection, but with increasingly diverse mobile devices in the near future and present, I think that personal experience becomes relevant to the cultural place and market trends of portable devices.

    Not unlike I suppose how culture adapted to the internet, or portable music, in the beginning theres a sort of wow. And then there's an agknowledgement of the pitfalls, the issues, and how one might navigate them.

    Indeed I think to KEEP users, mobile OS giants like apple and google will have a huge push to offer "minimisation" options to users - more silent modes, time management - whatever they can come up with - essentially offering their customers a way to strip down their experience to a more basic and unobstrusive one - and on increasingly cheap devices, so that people don't jump ship to other types of mobile experience (now that feature phone OSes like JaiOS are closing the gap, and smartwatches are approaching the point where they might be viable for basic smartphone functionality)

    There's also the issue of device redundancy with increasing numbers of devices. There's a computer in your thermostat, and in your car. Your friend has one. There's one at work, at school - on your desk. Your home has 5-6 maybe. Tablets, laptops, phones, all sorts. At a certain point you might feel like if one was more basic in functionality you wouldn't miss out on much. Especially once your space heater starts to respond to "hey alexa".

    In that sort of climate, as time goes on, it's not so much that I think pocketable devices will die. More that they will diversify, change. The smartphone has a decade or two in it yet. But long term, I think the same thing that happened to "computers" will happen to the device that people carry with them. It will grow into a crazy ecosystem of various quite different devices.

    Partly just because it will stop being the only available computer at any time, and become the only available computer, some small amount of the time - and the rest of the time, it'll just be a portal to the greater sea of computing. Eventually not being in range of some kind of smart device, or network of things will be about as frequent as being out of mobile coverage range - something that happens when you go bush, or go hiking, or visit your aging freinds in the country.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 07-30-2018 at 01:24 AM.
    07-30-2018 12:47 AM
  7. ochhanz's Avatar
    On PC however I find myself FORCED to use an iPhone or iPad... sadly I have these devices in my home. Wife sports and iPad and iPhone, but I need the iPad due to gaps in home automation.
    , don't they (the owners of the home automation service) have websites that support that stuff? Otherwise I agree with Drael646464, that it is bad support on their part and you should complain to them or write a bad review or such. It is like taking a bank account at a bank that does not allow internet banking.
    Drael646464 likes this.
    07-30-2018 09:04 AM
  8. anon(10409867)'s Avatar
    Most of the UWP apps are now gone. Even the basic apps have stopped working in the last couple of months.
    It's clear that Microsoft wants to divorce consumers. If consumers outside US have any self respect left, they should sign the divorce papers. It's time.
    07-30-2018 09:21 AM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    The reason why smartphone sales are declining is because there are few people who don't already have one. There are few new customers switching from feature phones these days. Additionally, other than we phone geeks on forums such as this, the majority of consumers don't upgrade their phones every year or every two years. The average Joe or average Jane replaces a phone only when necessary (the old phone is broken or no longer suitable).
    Exactly!
    07-30-2018 04:32 PM

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