04-12-2016 10:16 AM
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  1. tangledW's Avatar
    This is as close to a white flag as we will see. This is the beginning of the end. If they won't try to fight and win with the biggest carrier, they are packing it in. This is Zune, all over, again.
    Joe Belfiore should lose his job over this (I can hear the fan boys screaming now.) He either failed to negotiate a good deal with Verizon or failed to deliver a compelling product story to them to get them on board. Ultimately, he owns it. Time for Joe to go. I don't think he will, though, because Nadella couldn't care less about WP.

    Go ahead and jumps hip to AT&T, but within 2 years you will be on an Android or iPhone from them because Windows Phone is terminally ill and Microsoft has given the do not resuscitate order.
    I guess apple didn't do their job with Verizon either, because it took years for them to carry the iPhone.
    07-23-2015 08:43 PM
  2. gernerttl's Avatar
    For now I will hold on to my trusty Icon for as long as possible. If in the end, I have to go back to Android, I probably will.

    I've seen so many posts in other threads here as well as on other forums, VZW's included, about I'm jumping if I don't get what I want. I believe many of those threats were empty. Also, the ones that actually do follow through are not doing it on a lark, and it is probably easy(er) to do. But, for those of us who have family type plans, it's much more problematic. For me to jump to AT&T, because that would be the only carrier worth jumping too, would require getting THREE new phones, not just one. And those phones are not all in the same location. One of those phones is brand new, another is not a smart phone and is 5,000 miles away from where we live. Finally, Verizon's network reliability is a major factor for me. I jumped to Verizon from Sprint because Sprint's network was becoming more unreliable and I had spotty coverage in places I either worked, or stayed. Also, most of my family, and many of my friends had Verizon, which just made the decision that much easier. Especially, since at the time, Verizon had free Verizon-to-Verizon mobile calls.

    So, regardless of how awesome Cityman and Talkman are, I can't see jumping carriers just to get them as a practical or viable option for me and my family. I'll just go back to Android until Verizon pulls its head out and starts selling Microsoft devices again. If Verizon gets a CDMA version of those phones, then it's all good. If not, well...like I said the device is just one piece of a multi-layered cake...and not necessarily the most important piece,
    07-23-2015 08:59 PM
  3. dkediger's Avatar
    This will be horrible for me. ATT has very hit/miss reception for both my work and home locations. Which is odd, since along the interstate and US highways leading all directions there is great reception - and just bleh inside the city.

    I can understand the breakup from a technology perspective: Just build for GSM and leave CDMA on its slow march to oblivion.

    Still, I would like to see something on the back-story of the whole Vzw/MS saga. It reminds me of a college roommate and his girlfriend who would run the whole gamut of emotions in their relationship each and every night over the phone. It seems Vzw/MS are that couple that would be really good together but don't want to fully commit and are stuck trying to convince reach other that "Its me, not you..."
    RumoredNow and aximtreo like this.
    07-23-2015 09:04 PM
  4. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    White flag? Do not resuscitate? They have shown exactly the opposite by creating an operating system that will allow apps to run across all devices it will increase the quality apps for the phone.

    Microsoft has a plan in place that has nothing to do with competing in the market with iOS and Android. The idea is to forge ahead by creating an entirely NEW market.

    The problem with all the "gloom and doom" preachers we hear is that they keep repeating, "Microsoft in the smart phone market is dead. They have no chance to catch up." That's true. Microsoft realized that years ago. That's why they aren't trying to catch up. They've taken a new path to just bypass the competition and take the market into an entirely new direction with Continuum, Windows Hello, and apps that will run on a large range of devices from a watch, to a phone, to an Xbox, to a HoloLens, to a tablet, to a PC, to a Surface Hub, and to the Internet of Things with devices that don't even have screens.

    Just as iPhone redefined the smartphone, and was the "next big thing" after the Symbian devices, Windows 10 for mobile will redefine where things go "after the smartphone." The end goal here is to make the smart phone obsolete, not compete with it. With the direction Microsoft is taking, they want you to have not just a phone in your pocket, but an entire Windows ecosystem experience which includes the desktop model by using Continuum. If they succeed with this bold move, then iOS and Android won't be able to compete until THEY catch up.

    It's going to be hard to catch up, because Microsoft has a big lead and they aren't standing still.

    It's kind of like how Microsoft saw the revealing of the iPhone and scoffed at it, saying it would never get anywhere. So did a LOT of people in tech. Some of those same people are saying the same thing about Windows 10, but at the same time, Windows 10 has generated a lot of excitement from people who have been anti-Microsoft for a long time.

    It's hard to ignore what is happening with Windows 10. It makes a lot of Anti-Microsoft people angry and scared. It also makes a lot of anti-Microsoft people sit up and take notice while thinking, "Maybe Microsoft isn't so bad after all."

    Yeah, we're going to see big things happen over the next few years. It's an exciting time to be alive if you're into watching tech develop.
    Have you evenbothered to read any articles about how developers responded to the whole crossplatform pitch? Their thought is, "Why bother?" They see no advantagewhen they already have apps in the Android and iOS ecosystems. None of the newapps being developed by businesses are going to WP users. When is the last timeyou saw an app or product advertised and it had all three logos for their app?Instead, banks and airlines have closed their apps. This is all observable andmeasurable.

    On top of a poor appmarket, Microsoft has given all of the key differentiators to iOS and AndroidiOS. Shall we review:


    • Office
    • Cortana
    • Microsoft Band
    • Miscellaneous apps, that are available for other ecosystems and not WP.


    And, these are allrecent move - in other words, it's the new trend.

    These are not themoves of a company looking to differentiate themselves from the theircompetitors, which is how companies win. Now, they take themselves out of thegame by failing to win over Big Red. Debacle was exactly the right word forthis thread. They owned the mobile market with Windows Mobile. They let it die,tried to reinvent it, and are now letting it die again.

    Sufrace Hub andHololens are great, but the number of users will be quite small compared to themobile phone market. They aren't going to win big audiences with those. TheSurface is their most compelling device on the market now, and it has not wonlarge audiences over to WP.

    The whole one screenidea is nice, just 5 years too late.

    I will miss WP,believe me. But make no mistake it is on the way out the door.
    matty032 likes this.
    07-23-2015 09:26 PM
  5. TheZuneLune's Avatar
    I guess apple didn't do their job with Verizon either, because it took years for them to carry the iPhone.
    As if they had trouble getting developers or selling devices....When you're in last place, you can't give up on the biggest carrier.
    07-23-2015 09:28 PM
  6. hopmedic's Avatar
    Personally I think this is good. What is the point of wasting time with carriers who aren't all in.
    If only.... It must be nice to live where the carrier doesn't make a difference in the coverage. No. There is nothing good about this.

    I've made the decision that if they don't have the new Microsoft flagship I'm jumping ship. I know it's not going to matter to them but I'm not going to keep getting screwed over by Verizon
    Ditto. I'm going to jump ship, but I already know that I'm going to have to give up coverage to do so.

    All this is so disappointing. I love my reception with Verizon but I refuse to give up on Windows Phone.
    Same here.

    Yeah, like I said. I get out a lot, but in the Southeast US. I'm nowhere near the Rocky Mountains.
    I live an hour from Atlanta and the difference is big. Everyone at my church who has ATT has to step out into the parking lot to talk on the phone. I don't on Verizon. An insurance lady came to my house, and sitting in my kitchen couldn't use her ATT enabled laptop, and wasn't allowed to connect to my WiFi. I sat there with 4 bars of LTE on my Icon. The entire southeast is not wrapped up in ATT's coverage. It all depends on where you are. Wherever you are is what determines who has the best coverage. If I do switch to ATT, I'll have to get two of their network extenders (the ones that connect to your internet) to cover my house, and then the rest of my half acre of paradise won't be covered. Hopefully I won't have to make that sacrifice, but it may come to it to stick with Windows Phone.
    07-23-2015 10:17 PM
  7. hopmedic's Avatar
    I wrote up this thread, in which I tell of writing to Marni Walden, Executive Vice President and President of Product Innovation and New Businesses at Verizon. Here's the link to the thread, which includes my letter to her.
    http://forums.windowscentral.com/gen...e-verizon.html
    rhapdog, a5cent, aximtreo and 3 others like this.
    07-23-2015 10:20 PM
  8. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!

    VZW does not want to let Microsoft handle the updates....fine no phones for VZW to have in their store.....make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....Money in the Cash drawer. If people start to treat VZW as a BYOD carrier, they will quickly change their tune !!!!
    kwright62 likes this.
    07-23-2015 10:26 PM
  9. hopmedic's Avatar
    The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!

    VZW does not want to let Microsoft handle the updates....fine no phones for VZW to have in their store.....make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....Money in the Cash drawer. If people start to treat VZW as a BYOD carrier, they will quickly change their tune !!!!
    An unlocked CDMA phone would be nice, but I'm not sure it's that simple. I'm not saying it isn't - I don't know. What I can tell you is that I once had a Sprint Arrive, and had left Verizon, and Verizon was trying to get me back (this was shortly before they launched Trophy), and I told them that I wanted to be able to activate the Sprint phone (CDMA) on Verizon, and they said they couldn't do it. That may have been frequency differences, but I was also told at one point that Verizon had to approve any phone that was to come onto their network, that it wasn't as simple as it is with GSM where you can drop in a SIM.

    Like I said, it would be nice if you're right - and if MS does it, but I have my doubts based on that experience.
    rhapdog and aximtreo like this.
    07-23-2015 10:37 PM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    That may have been frequency differences, but I was also told at one point that Verizon had to approve any phone that was to come onto their network, that it wasn't as simple as it is with GSM where you can drop in a SIM.
    There are 3 unlocked phones that I know of into which you can simply insert a Verizon SIM you're good to go:

    1. Unlocked iPhone 6
    2. Unlocked iPhone 6+
    3. Nexus 6 (North American version, and not AT&T's)

    Otherwise, you're pretty much stuck with what Verizon approves.
    07-23-2015 10:49 PM
  11. gernerttl's Avatar
    The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!
    Agreed, regardless of which carriers carry its devices.

    make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....
    CDMA doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as a "CDMA unlocked" device. CDMA requires a key that is directly tied to the carrier. That CDMA key is baked into the device's firmware not the OS. Verizon controls that key, NOT Microsoft. That is why a Sprint CDMA phone won't work on Verizon's network and vice versa.

    I can understand the breakup from a technology perspective: Just build for GSM and leave CDMA on its slow march to oblivion.
    Verizon is getting rid of its CDMA network...it just takes a while. They have millions of devices that will have to eventually be replaced with VoLTE devices. That is the route that all US carriers are taking. GSM and CDMA are both on the way out and everything will be data only. It is a long term project, that will ultimately simplify network operations (and therefore reduce costs) for all of the carriers, not just Verizon. It will also allow the consumer (us) to shop around for the best deals and not have to worry about getting a new phone, if they don't want to.
    07-23-2015 10:59 PM
  12. RumoredNow's Avatar
    This is as close to a white flag as we will see. This is the beginning of the end. If they won't try to fight and win with the biggest carrier, they are packing it in.
    Sorry, that is incorrect. Read deeper into the situation: Bloomberg ? Microsoft 'expects to make its own phones for at least the next two years' | Windows Central


    Microsoft is likely to exit deals with carriers that are not productive to their bottom line as well:
    "The company also will exit carrier relationships and countries where it hasn't been successful, the person said, although it will continue to sell handsets in the U.S. because of the market's size and significance."


    The relationship with Verizon is not enhancing Microsoft's bottom line. So it will change for the betterment of Microsoft or it will cease. It's a strategic realignment of priorities. Carriers are in the business of making phones obsolete the moment they leave the showroom. Couple that with demands for exclusivity on high end models that languish on the shelves while the carries push other product and it is a disaster for Windows Phone. Doing an end around carriers is easy on GSM. CDMA locks out BYOD by default. It is also an anachronistic system held over too long from the past. It's BetaMax to GSM's VHS.

    It's only Verizon's fault that you can't BYOD on their network. Anyone can do the math and realize that Vzw getting an exclusive on a flagship is cutting out way more users than it will reach on Big Red. So they have to be chucked over the side.

    Don't confuse pragmatism with defeat.
    07-23-2015 11:04 PM
  13. gernerttl's Avatar
    There are 3 unlocked phones that I know of into which you can simply insert a Verizon SIM you're good to go:

    1. Unlocked iPhone 6
    2. Unlocked iPhone 6+
    3. Nexus 6 (North American version, and not AT&T's)

    Otherwise, you're pretty much stuck with what Verizon approves.
    Like I said in my previous post. There is no such thing as an "unlocked" CDMA device. The unlocked piece is the GSM/LTE which does not require a special key like CDMA does.
    07-23-2015 11:06 PM
  14. RumoredNow's Avatar
    make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store.
    It would never get activated in the United States... The CDMA carriers refuse to put MEIDs into their database unless they come through their loading docks as stock for sale in their stores. Without that database entry the servers that control their network refuse to see the phone.
    07-23-2015 11:08 PM
  15. hopmedic's Avatar
    It would never get activated in the United States... The CDMA carriers refuse to put MEIDs into their database unless they come through their loading docks as stock for sale in their stores. Without that database entry the servers that control their network refuse to see the phone.
    That is pretty much how I figured it worked. And you have the MVNO carriers with their phones, but surely those phones' MEIDs are in the database, and they're limited to 3G in all cases that I'm aware of, as well.
    07-23-2015 11:12 PM
  16. hopmedic's Avatar
    The thought just occurred to me.... It hasn't been all that long since Verizon became a payment option in my phone's wallet. How bad can the relationship be if they've recently added carrier billing as an option?
    rhapdog likes this.
    07-23-2015 11:20 PM
  17. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that they release the 735. What was the point of releasing that way late phone now if they were going to stop selling the phone.
    rhapdog likes this.
    07-23-2015 11:31 PM
  18. tgp's Avatar
    Like I said in my previous post. There is no such thing as an "unlocked" CDMA device. The unlocked piece is the GSM/LTE which does not require a special key like CDMA does.
    Well, try convincing those who bought an unlocked Nexus 6 from Motorola (that's where I bought mine), Google, T-Mobile, Sprint, or US Cellular and put their Verizon SIM card in it. I do not know if it is technically CDMA unlocked, but I do know that you can buy the Nexus 6 and use it on any of the 5 major US carriers. You can even use AT&T's Nexus 6 on Verizon after you get it SIM unlocked. The unlocked iPhone 6/6+ also work on Verizon.

    In fact, Verizon's Nexus 6 is exactly the same as you get from Motorola/Google/most of the US carriers except Verizon put their logo on it. T-Mobile, Sprint, and US Cellular all carry the Nexus 6 exactly as it comes unlocked from the factory. AT&T's is SIM locked and has a custom boot animation.

    Google and Apple did it; Microsoft can do it too.
    07-23-2015 11:38 PM
  19. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    Spent some time talking with a good friend that works with Verizon corporate sales at a fairly high level. For one, they are not going to stop carrying Windows on phones.

    They will not carry Lumias FOR THE TIME BEING after the 735, but this was a mutual decision between the two. Microsoft would prefer not make a CDMA handset, especially with how VZW puts them through testing periods.

    So if your heart is set on a Lumia, so be it. But this deal also opens the door for others to be the sole Windows mobile options of the largest network in the US. This also fits into how Verizon prefers to try to push Windows on phones. As alternatives to Android and the same handsets.

    The One M9 is coming in October with Windows 10. The LG G4 is also supposed to be coming with Windows 10. There's some talk that the Moto X may also get Windows. Verizon is also trying to get Samsung to make a Verizon only version of the Galaxy S6 with Windows in an attempt to spur interest.

    One key to remember is that Verizon is now in quite deep with Microsoft. They just bought AOL. AOL gets a lot of video content (with ads) pushed through Bing and MSN. And AOL now is doing the ad sales for MS - and VZ bought AOL for ads and content. Microsoft helps with both.

    Here's the kicker too. More Windows devices means it's more likely that Bing and MSN will get more traffic through the web or apps. They also plan to push these things on Android in the future too, but the AOL deal makes Microsoft more important because they feed directly into Verizon's new ad revenue source.

    The two parties have a joint strategy to grow Windows on Verizon long term. The only successful Lumia for VZW was the 822. They had hoped the 928 would succeed. It didn't. They hoped the exclusive Icon would do well. It didn't. The One M8 outsold both, as did the Samsung ATIV. The M8 did the best. Verizon believes a positive launch of Windows 10 on traditional devices will make Windows 10 on mobile a viable option, but they don't believe they can sell the masses on a name or brand they don't really know. Offer them an option for the HTC One M9 or the Moto X or the LG G4 or the S6 (probably a tough sell to get Samsung to do it unless Verizon holds leverage) and you'll see better penetration for Windows.

    Verizon is hardly all in, but they also aren't throwing in the towel. They just don't think Lumia is a viable brand. If Microsoft produces a Surface branded phone in the future, Verizon would be interested because that is a known and well liked brand.

    So expect at least two flagship level devices to come in the October timeframe to Verizon and possibly four. I think the Moto X is more likely than the S6. And it's the upcoming Moto X they are considering putting out with Windows in addition to Android.

    But it's like they've said here. Lumia is not in the plans on Verizon. If either phone takes off on AT&T, Verizon does have the ability to get the phone on their network within a few months. There's been some buzz that an Intel based phone is coming early next year. If it is Surface branded, it may end up on Verizon. They are expected to carry Surface 3 LTE and would probably carry a Surface phone.
    07-23-2015 11:53 PM
  20. hopmedic's Avatar
    That's good news, Mr. MacPhisto. That helps. But I wish that if there were no Lumia on Verizon that at least one of the other brands would have a camera as good as the one on the Icon. I'll have to wait and see what the other brands come to offer before making a decision, but for now, nothing on the market beats the Icon. The camera is awesome, and for me, recording video at church, the audio is top-notch compared to anything else out there.
    rhapdog likes this.
    07-24-2015 12:00 AM
  21. Casey8's Avatar
    Check out this uservoice that was created earlier today. Go to WP uservoice and search cityman. It'll come up and the description is short and sweet. Cityman and talkman on Verizon. Go voice your opinion. This sucks.
    hopmedic likes this.
    07-24-2015 12:18 AM
  22. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    I believe many of those threats were empty. Also, the ones that actually do follow through are not doing it on a lark, and it is probably easy(er) to do.
    I was one of those who made that threat. And it's more than a threat. I'm off contract with Verizon, and I have been for 5 months. I'm happy with my Icon, but the moment Cityman comes out, my wife and I are both heading to AT&T. It does complicate things when you have a family plan with multiple lines.
    07-24-2015 12:24 AM
  23. hopmedic's Avatar
    Check out this uservoice that was created earlier today. Go to WP uservoice and search cityman. It'll come up and the description is short and sweet. Cityman and talkman on Verizon. Go voice your opinion. This sucks.
    Voted. Thanks!

    I was one of those who made that threat. And it's more than a threat. I'm off contract with Verizon, and I have been for 5 months. I'm happy with my Icon, but the moment Cityman comes out, my wife and I are both heading to AT&T. It does complicate things when you have a family plan with multiple lines.
    Mine is more than a threat, as well. Whether I go through with it or not depends on what comes up, as far as possibly other phones, but I would really rather have a Lumia. I also dread switching to ATT, but if I have to, I have to. Of course, I can stick it out with the Icon to see what happens, but at this point, I'm not sure. I really want an SD slot, and the camera/audio recording quality that the Icon gives me.

    Microsoft and Verizon, why can't you two just play nice in the sandbox like the other little boys and girls???
    rhapdog, RumoredNow and aximtreo like this.
    07-24-2015 01:10 AM
  24. gernerttl's Avatar
    Well, try convincing those who bought an unlocked Nexus 6 from Motorola (that's where I bought mine), Google, T-Mobile, Sprint, or US Cellular and put their Verizon SIM card in it. I do not know if it is technically CDMA unlocked, but I do know that you can buy the Nexus 6 and use it on any of the 5 major US carriers. You can even use AT&T's Nexus 6 on Verizon after you get it SIM unlocked. The unlocked iPhone 6/6+ also work on Verizon.

    In fact, Verizon's Nexus 6 is exactly the same as you get from Motorola/Google/most of the US carriers except Verizon put their logo on it. T-Mobile, Sprint, and US Cellular all carry the Nexus 6 exactly as it comes unlocked from the factory. AT&T's is SIM locked and has a custom boot animation.

    Google and Apple did it; Microsoft can do it too.
    That's because Verizon provided its CDMA key to the OEM to be included in the firmware for its branded phone. The same non-Verizon branded phone will NOT work on Verizon's CDMA network. The SIM activates the LTE and data and allows it to operate on those networks. Verizon's (and Sprint's) 3G CDMA networks are separate from their LTE networks and CDMA devices don't need SIMs; only GSM and LTE (which is a direct descendent of GSM) require SIMs.

    I had a Galaxy Nexus on Verizon and a friend of mine had a Galaxy Nexus on T-Mobile. What was the difference? His Nexus was GSM/LTE and had no branding. Mine had the Verizon branding and had in addition to GSM/LTE, CDMA as well. That caused me to get Ice Cream Sandwich about two months after he did.
    rhapdog, RumoredNow and aximtreo like this.
    07-24-2015 01:45 AM
  25. gernerttl's Avatar
    Back to the subject. If Verizon does snub Microsoft, how much business will it cost them? Not a whole lot. Not getting the iPhone initially may have cost them some revenue, but in the end, the friends I had that got the first iPhone were saying, "Hey! I got an iPhone!" and I was saying, "Hey! But your network sucks so what use is it?". In other words, they were still making a killing with Blackberries, Palms, and early Androids at the time.

    Since MSFT now has even less negotiated power in the mobile device market that Apple did back then, it is unlikely they will get a favorable deal from Verizon. However, Verizon is just one carrier among an ocean of carriers world wide, and Microsoft does have some bargaining power with them. So MSFT is going to focus its efforts in markets it is confident it can compete and possible gain market share in. Nadella is looking at the global strategic level and the US market is just one piece...and not the biggest piece at that. China and India are where everybody is really going to compete. North America and Western Europe markets are saturated.
    rhapdog, a5cent, aximtreo and 1 others like this.
    07-24-2015 02:02 AM
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