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  1. Tim Stone's Avatar
    I'm with Verizon ... I added a 3rd line and had my own phone available. So they discounted it from $40 /mo to $25. It happens to be an Icon so not a bad situation. I also got other credits and "bonuses". You will never get it in the store, but if you call, the operators are really pleasant and want to help out. If not, simply ask for the retention department.

    There are perks, you just need to ask for them. Remember to go direct to the phone support staff ...
    07-29-2015 08:01 PM
  2. gernerttl's Avatar
    I posted this on another thread. MNVOs are becoming more and more popular. Here is a list of MNVO's and what networks they use. We all know about Straight Talk, but there are several others with a few that lease Verizon spectrum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...work_operators
    a5cent and aximtreo like this.
    07-29-2015 09:57 PM
  3. MarkusDindu's Avatar
    I've had discussions with execs at both Microsoft and Verizon. This is a personal decision by the leadership of Verizon, and essentially they refuse to even allow their staff free training on the Windows Phones. Even if a WinPhone is the best solution for a customer, Verizon staff will attempt to steer the clients to Android phones for the higher commissions.
    So Microsoft and Verizon execs have for some reason let you in on how their deals work...yeah right. And your "higher commissions for Android phones" statement is BS, Verizon sales associates do not get paid for individual phone sales.

    Verizon employees absolutely do not care which phone you buy, selling one over the other does not bring them more money. If employees have any reason at all not to recommend a Windows Phone, it is mostly because Windows Phones get returned far too often. It is a pain in the rear unboxing a device and setting it up, only to have the customer return days later wanting a different phone.

    Some of the stuff I read here is laughable, and it always amazes me that people take it all in as if it's actually the truth, only because it's exactly what they want to hear. No one on this forum wants to believe that Windows Phone sells poorly because consumers simply don't want them. They'd much rather believe that Windows Phones don't sell because there's a conspiracy at the carriers to hold them back. Whatever explanation makes a person feel better is what they'll except as the truth.
    07-29-2015 09:59 PM
  4. Tim Stone's Avatar
    Sorry, Markus, but the only assumptions here are yours, and they are incorrect.

    I actually invested a lot of time talking with senior staff at both companies hoping that Verizon would do more to sell Windows Phones. That also included discussions with local store sales and management. I never make stuff up, nor do I work on assumptions. This would be an extremely long post if I were to provide you with the details, but of course you have made up your mind.

    Some of us actually get involved directly with companies to proactively support them and our clients. Posts on forums are simply a reflection of what we experience. I'm much to old to engage in fantasy or speculation, and my clients count on me to be accurate. I've invested the time, so I will stand by my statements and not belabor the point.
    Last edited by Tim Stone; 07-30-2015 at 11:06 AM. Reason: spelling
    07-30-2015 11:05 AM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    I've had discussions with execs at both Microsoft and Verizon. This is a personal decision by the leadership of Verizon, and essentially they refuse to even allow their staff free training on the Windows Phones. Even if a WinPhone is the best solution for a customer, Verizon staff will attempt to steer the clients to Android phones for the higher commissions. I've gotten this from staff at all levels. Fortunately phone staff doesn't do this, and some have actually seen the benefits of Win Phones. Change the CEO at Verizon and you'll likely see a new attitude.

    Now, for the bottom line. Microsoft will make the phones that work on Verizon, but the stores will make little, if any, effort to sell them. NEWS FLASH ! You do NOT need to buy your phone from Verizon directly. I'd never buy another phone of any type from their corporate stores. I might order one online, or by phone call, and have it here in a day, but more likely I would go to the Microsoft Store to buy one. The deals are the same, the staff is supportive, and the phones will be great.

    In the end, none of the carriers care about quality. In fact, they would be happy to sell you a phone you don't like just to get you back in to buy another one. In the end, get the carrier with the best coverage in your area, then check the variety of resources for the best phone you want. Look at the stores, both online and brick/mortar, and you will be able to find a solution you like.
    Sorry, Markus, but the only assumptions here are yours, and they are incorrect.

    I actually invested a lot of time talking with senior staff at both companies hoping that Verizon would do more to sell Windows Phones. That also included discussions with local store sales and management. I never make stuff up, nor do I work on assumptions. This would be an extremely long post if I were to provide you with the details, but of course you have made up your mind.

    Some of us actually get involved directly with companies to proactively support them and our clients. Posts on forums are simply a reflection of what we experience. I'm much to old to engage in fantasy or speculation, and my clients count on me to be accurate. I've invested the time, so I will stand by my statements and not belabor the point.
    Do you feel that there is some kind of conspiracy against Microsoft at Verizon? I would think that the actual OS on the phone means little to the carrier. Any retailer worth carrying the title wishes to sell what its customers want. Verizon is probably no different. They also sell what brings them the highest profit, which is affected by profit margin, as well as carrying what will sell.
    07-30-2015 11:23 AM
  6. Tim Stone's Avatar
    tgp, I never used the word "conspiracy". There is an attitude in Verizon corporate against Microsoft. It's that simple, and is not speculative.

    The vast majority of people walk into a phone store and ask for recommendations. I've observed staff direct people to phones that did not meet, at all, the needs as expressed by the client. I've seen people afterwards struggle to make phones work for them while they wait for two years to have the next upgrade.

    When I show people a Windows phone, they are amazed at how easy it is to use. When they see the photos, they are totally impressed. I happen to also have an iPhone 6+ ( needed for job related apps ). The Lumia Icon always wins with photo quality. The integration of features in the Lumia really impresses people, as does the voice quality. After I show the phone, people often ask "Why didn't they show me this one at the store?" Ask the sales person and he will say "I never demo those phones. I don't really know much about them." In fact, a couple told me they had never sold one, and the others had only done so when someone asked for it specifically.

    People are loyal to Windows Phones because they are well built, and have some excellent features. Sales are dependent on retail staff, and if they don't make people aware of a product, they won't consider it. If I ran a Verizon store, and if they reinstated the Icon, plus had demo models of the M8 Windows version, and the new low end, I'd guarantee sales would outpace the other stores because every sales person would be solidly trained to work with clients to find the best solution for their needs, which would include an acquaintance with Windows Phones and iPhones, not just Android.

    It's not conspiracy, but it is attitude.
    Joe Acerbic and theefman like this.
    07-30-2015 12:06 PM
  7. gernerttl's Avatar
    tgp, I never used the word "conspiracy". There is an attitude in Verizon corporate against Microsoft. It's that simple, and is not speculative.

    The vast majority of people walk into a phone store and ask for recommendations. I've observed staff direct people to phones that did not meet, at all, the needs as expressed by the client. I've seen people afterwards struggle to make phones work for them while they wait for two years to have the next upgrade.

    When I show people a Windows phone, they are amazed at how easy it is to use. When they see the photos, they are totally impressed. I happen to also have an iPhone 6+ ( needed for job related apps ). The Lumia Icon always wins with photo quality. The integration of features in the Lumia really impresses people, as does the voice quality. After I show the phone, people often ask "Why didn't they show me this one at the store?" Ask the sales person and he will say "I never demo those phones. I don't really know much about them." In fact, a couple told me they had never sold one, and the others had only done so when someone asked for it specifically.

    People are loyal to Windows Phones because they are well built, and have some excellent features. Sales are dependent on retail staff, and if they don't make people aware of a product, they won't consider it. If I ran a Verizon store, and if they reinstated the Icon, plus had demo models of the M8 Windows version, and the new low end, I'd guarantee sales would outpace the other stores because every sales person would be solidly trained to work with clients to find the best solution for their needs, which would include an acquaintance with Windows Phones and iPhones, not just Android.

    It's not conspiracy, but it is attitude.
    This "attitude" you observe does not seem to be at the executive level. It's at the local store and possibly middle management level. At least based on what you just wrote. Are the execs aware that there is a seeming bias against Microsoft at the local level? If so, then they have to weigh how badly does it hurt Verizon's bottom line? Verizon doesn't make a whole lot of money on the phones themselves. The whole point is to sell a service, the device is just the means to access that service. A person who chooses a Galaxy S6 over a HTC M9 regardless of OS is still paying for Verizon's service. Which to tell you the truth is very good. My experience with Verizon has been overall good. Sure there are Verizon sales reps who are steering people towards either iPhones or Android, but it has less to do with decrees from executive level and more to do about personal preference.

    Here in the US people love and want Android and iPhone devices. Even though Windows is the superior OS in almost every respect, but the truth is that Verizon will sell what the consumer wants. If Windows 10 Mobile increases demand for Windows devices, then Verizon will start selling more to meet that demand. It's how a market based approach works. If demand goes up in a certain market, businesses will try to meet that demand.

    TGP is correct. Other than security issues and how the phone performs on the network, the OS is irrelevant. At least at the macro level. The execs are not in the stores selling phones, they are running a business, so their view is going to be different than a network operator, sales rep, or a store manager. Are there sales reps that steer people away from Windows? Yes. There are also sales reps who steer people away from Android or iPhone too. That is a LOCAL problem and not an executive problem; and the execs are NOT going to micromanage the individual stores. They have a HUGE business to run with THOUSANDS of employees.

    Verizon didn't become the largest US carrier because it "dissed" Windows; it became the largest US carrier by providing a really good service to its customers and selling the devices that consumers wanted.

    So there is no bad blood between Microsoft and Verizon, nor is there a bad attitude. It's just business and nothing more.
    Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    07-30-2015 02:45 PM
  8. Tim Stone's Avatar
    OK ... no sense in me making further comments ... seriously you will believe what you want.

    HOWEVER, I can assure you that my discussions were not based on observations and comments from sales staff at a local store. They were with members of the executive branch of both companies who were very familiar with the situation.

    Verizon has the best coverage and many of us stay with them solely because of that. My use of that carrier actual predates Verizon taking over the system from Airtouch which took it over from PacTel Cellular. That's over 20 years ( dating back to the Panasonic back pack phones ). That loyalty to the brand does open up some conversations .... even behind the block walls.

    So .. believe as you want ... and I won't continue the discussion.
    07-30-2015 04:05 PM
  9. etphoto's Avatar
    I can only go by personal experience and many discussions in this forum have similar stories. Do I think exec at Verizon dislike WP, probably not. Yet, I do know that when I went in to buy my M8 the sales guy tried talking me out of it and getting the Android one instead.
    theefman and xandros9 like this.
    08-01-2015 11:54 AM
  10. gernerttl's Avatar
    Here is something else that needs to be considered. Microsoft is competing on a GLOBAL scale, Verizon is NOT. Like I said previously, Verizon is one of many carriers world wide. It is just one fish in a REALLY big ocean. If Verizon doesn't sell Lumias, but DOES sell non-Lumia Windows devices, then how does it hurt Microsoft? How does it hurt Verizon? To answer both questions, it doesn't.

    So if Microsoft offers a Lumia that will work on Verizon's network...great! If Verizon offer's non-Lumia Windows Phones... great! If both happen... even better! In any case, we still benefit by having a device running a superior OS on a very reliable network.

    Ultimately, it boils down to this. Verizon is going to do what is best for Verizon and its customer base. Microsoft is going to do what is best for Microsoft and ITS customer base. Both are trying to get and keep loyal customers. It's that simple.

    As far as Verizon sales reps steering people away from Windows devices. Well keep this in mind. It is OUR responsibility as consumers to do our homework... NOT the sales rep's responsibility. If a customer walks out of a Verizon store with a device that he or she didn't want, or doesn't fit his or her needs, it's that person's fault, NOT the sales rep's fault.

    Finally, I was talking to a Verizon sales rep here, and he made a very good point. He said that a lot of times people are not necessarily buying a phone because of the OS. He said that it's more of a brand loyalty. People who buy Samsung devices will most likely upgrade to another Samsung, and people who buy a HTC phone will likely stick with HTC. As humans we ARE creatures of habit after all. So, if Microsoft can get Windows on HTC, Samsung, and LG devices, then it can definitely benefit from that brand loyalty.

    And THAT is what Nadella's strategy is really all about... to get Windows and Microsoft services on as many devices as possible. Whether it is a Microsoft device or not is largely irrelevant.
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    08-01-2015 07:56 PM
  11. final_fantasy781's Avatar
    That makes a lot of sense, Gernerttl. While that sounds good to you, it doesn't sound good to most consumers. We just see Verizon's choices guided by hate and dislike.
    08-03-2015 08:26 AM
  12. dkediger's Avatar
    I think I've come to terms with Vzw/MS' way forward, but the part I'm going to really miss is wireless charging. Once you've integrated it into your routine and work/living spaces, its going to be a mess going back. Would really like to see more OEMs support this.

    First world problems, I know....
    GreenScrew and a5cent like this.
    08-03-2015 10:14 AM
  13. odin09's Avatar
    I think I've come to terms with Vzw/MS' way forward, but the part I'm going to really miss is wireless charging. Once you've integrated it into your routine and work/living spaces, its going to be a mess going back. Would really like to see more OEMs support this.

    First world problems, I know....
    I am with you. I am somewhat resigned to my next phone being an LG or HTC but it will be painful putting my wireless charging plates away in a closet somewhere. I have gotten so used to just placing the phone down. Even worse than that will be saying goodbye to my physical shutter button. That is the thing that could lead me to say screw my finances and buy an unlocked Lumia if the rumors are correct with them being compatible with Verizon.
    08-03-2015 11:38 AM
  14. Tim Stone's Avatar
    "Verizon is going to do what is best for Verizon and it's customer base." This is where we disagree.

    A lot of people are very upset with our local store. The manager told me candidly "We don't care if they leave. We get lots of new customers, and the ones who leave will get tired of dropped calls or weaker cell signals and come back." He candidly expresses that attitude to a lot of people who have shared it on social media, and get a lot of Amens. The formula is not about customers, it's simply about profits and bonuses.

    I never speculated about the negative attitude by Verizon toward Microsoft. I was told that by a senior corporate staff member. In later discussions I have mentioned that to other higher level staff, and never once has anyone suggested otherwise. You might look at the sales notes on Windows phones. They are on the rise in all other countries, especially when carriers actually market them.

    As for the consumer responsibility, I have had people go into the store and tell them exactly what they want ( ie. a Lumia Icon ), but if you look at the boxes, they only have the numbers on there. More than once, they have come back to me with the new phone, said it looked different, but the salesperson insisted that was what they were asking for. When I pointed out it was an Android phone, they would take it back but be charged a 20% restocking fee. This stuff is too ridiculous to make up, and I only share what I have actually witnessed, never a story I saw posted somewhere.

    Finally, remember that the majority of phone users are "consumers". They are not educated technical people, but rather individuals who have a need and go into the store to seek advice on which offering best meets that need. While you are waiting your turn in a busy store, actually watch what takes place. I have seen customers come in and try to share their specific needs, only to be told "This is the phone that is the most popular right now" and then comes the push toward something that may well be inappropriate. Those of us who do understand technology and know where to look, need to remember that a lot of people out there simply don't have the same background. That is why they seek assistance in a store, believing ( as it used to be ), that someone will actually help them find the right device for their needs. For those of us who remember the days when stores actually could match products to customers consider that passing sad.
    08-03-2015 11:58 AM
  15. GreenScrew's Avatar
    I am with you. I am somewhat resigned to my next phone being an LG or HTC but it will be painful putting my wireless charging plates away in a closet somewhere. I have gotten so used to just placing the phone down. Even worse than that will be saying goodbye to my physical shutter button. That is the thing that could lead me to say screw my finances and buy an unlocked Lumia if the rumors are correct with them being compatible with Verizon.
    And I'm with you. Been kicking around using the "every two" upgrades that I've been sitting on to get a couple iPhones and reselling them to get the value out of the subsidized phone plan. Having upgrades available and being used is really a waste of money.
    08-03-2015 01:29 PM
  16. gernerttl's Avatar
    I think I've come to terms with Vzw/MS' way forward, but the part I'm going to really miss is wireless charging. Once you've integrated it into your routine and work/living spaces, its going to be a mess going back. Would really like to see more OEMs support this.

    First world problems, I know....
    Yeah. I've thought of that too. Just so you know, the LG G4 has a removable battery, and for approx. $10 you can add a Qi wireless charging coil. I did this with my wife's old GS3 and it worked really well. You can also get a wireless charging case for $40. So you are not really without options.

    How to add wireless charging to any LG G4 for just $10

    My two concerns with the G4 is the button placement and screen size. I'm so used to having them on the sides. I prefer 5" screen. The LG's is 5.5"...though if all other things being equal, I could learn to live with the larger screen and different button placement. They are concerns, but not necessarily deal beakers.
    08-03-2015 05:22 PM
  17. BigPete7978's Avatar
    Hoping it comes to Verizon, AT&T service is horrible where I live, so me and the wife were thinking about switching to another carrier. Maybe Sprint? Never had them before, only been on Verizon and AT&T.
    08-03-2015 05:38 PM
  18. gernerttl's Avatar
    "Verizon is going to do what is best for Verizon and it's customer base." This is where we disagree.

    A lot of people are very upset with our local store. The manager told me candidly "We don't care if they leave. We get lots of new customers, and the ones who leave will get tired of dropped calls or weaker cell signals and come back." He candidly expresses that attitude to a lot of people who have shared it on social media, and get a lot of Amens. The formula is not about customers, it's simply about profits and bonuses.
    That manager is a LOCAL store manager; and his focus is selling wireless services for Verizon. It is NOT to sell Microsoft, LG, HTC, Apple, or Samsung products. He really could care less if somebody buys a Android, iPhone, or Windows device.

    Both Verizon and Microsoft are businesses, and to successfully run a business, you need to make a profit. That is what is all about. It's called capitalism and free market.

    As far as that store manager goes, complain about it via Verizon's customer service feedback. If Verizon gets enough negative feedback pertaining to that particular store manager, then they will say something. Because, based on what you are saying, he isn't following Verizon's stated customer service policy.

    Customer Satisfaction | Verizon Wireless

    I've never had a problem with Verizon sales reps or store managers in any store I've been in. Nor have I witnessed it in any of those same stores.

    I never speculated about the negative attitude by Verizon toward Microsoft. I was told that by a senior corporate staff member. In later discussions I have mentioned that to other higher level staff, and never once has anyone suggested otherwise. You might look at the sales notes on Windows phones. They are on the rise in all other countries, especially when carriers actually market them.
    Verizon isn't competing on a global scale. So, it's irrelevant, as far as Verizon is concerned, how well devices sell in other countries. Like I said previously, Verizon's focus is selling its wireless (as well as other) services. It doesn't make much profit on the device. Its profits come from selling the service, whether it is a two-year contract, or pay as you go. A person who buys two iPhones with a 10GB family share plan is paying the same amount as a person who buys two Lumia Icons (or two Samsung's) with the same 10GB family share plan.

    It is ultimately, the manufacturer's responsibility to market its goods, not Verizon's (or any other carrier's for that matter). If you watch the iPhone, Galaxy S6, and LG G4 ads, you will notice that they are almost all identical. The difference is in one commercial it will mention Verizon, in another it will mention AT&T, and in another Sprint, etc. The Lumia Icon commercials were put together by Microsoft, NOT Verizon. Had the Lumia Icon been offered on the other carriers, you would have seen the same commercial except with those other carriers logos at the end.

    As for the consumer responsibility, I have had people go into the store and tell them exactly what they want ( ie. a Lumia Icon ), but if you look at the boxes, they only have the numbers on there. More than once, they have come back to me with the new phone, said it looked different, but the salesperson insisted that was what they were asking for. When I pointed out it was an Android phone, they would take it back but be charged a 20% restocking fee. This stuff is too ridiculous to make up, and I only share what I have actually witnessed, never a story I saw posted somewhere.
    You just made my point. Those customers went in to the store without doing ANY research. Therefore, it is the customers fault for not ensuring they got what they asked for. You are correct though. The box doesn't say "Nokia or Lumia Icon." But the user manual inside DOES. The sales rep had to open the box to ensure everything was in it (i.e. phone, MANUAL, charging cable, etc.), and to activate the phone, so again, it is the buyer's fault for not double checking and not doing the research.

    Finally, remember that the majority of phone users are "consumers". They are not educated technical people, but rather individuals who have a need and go into the store to seek advice on which offering best meets that need. While you are waiting your turn in a busy store, actually watch what takes place. I have seen customers come in and try to share their specific needs, only to be told "This is the phone that is the most popular right now" and then comes the push toward something that may well be inappropriate. Those of us who do understand technology and know where to look, need to remember that a lot of people out there simply don't have the same background. That is why they seek assistance in a store, believing ( as it used to be ), that someone will actually help them find the right device for their needs. For those of us who remember the days when stores actually could match products to customers consider that passing sad.
    Not being and "educate technical person" is no excuse. Again, it's about doing a little research. We have this little thing called the internet. Furthermore, I bet if those same people were buying a car they would do some research. Other than cost, what is the difference between buying a smartphone, or buying a computer, car, or any other relatively expensive item? There isn't. It all boils down to personal responsibility and taking the initiative to do your own research. Yes, advice from friends should be weighed and considered, but it doesn't replace doing a little research yourself.
    08-03-2015 06:08 PM
  19. gernerttl's Avatar
    Hoping it comes to Verizon, AT&T service is horrible where I live, so me and the wife were thinking about switching to another carrier. Maybe Sprint? Never had them before, only been on Verizon and AT&T.
    Oh don't go to Sprint! You would better off going to AT&T. You can also check to see what MVNO's are in your area. A MNVO is a wireless provider that rents or leases its spectrum from one of the carriers; Cricket, Straight Talk, and Net10 are good examples.

    They may have the coverage you need and they all (or at least most of them) are BYOD friendly.

    Here is a list of MNVOs and whos spectrum they lease or rent.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...work_operators
    libra89 likes this.
    08-03-2015 06:16 PM
  20. BigPete7978's Avatar
    Oh don't go to Sprint! You would better off going to AT&T. You can also check to see what MVNO's are in your area. A MNVO is a wireless provider that rents or leases its spectrum from one of the carriers; Cricket, Straight Talk, and Net10 are good examples.

    They may have the coverage you need and they all (or at least most of them) are BYOD friendly.

    Here is a list of MNVOs and whos spectrum they lease or rent.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...work_operators
    Currently have AT&T and the service is horrible sometimes. Verizon is the best carrier around here by far.
    gernerttl likes this.
    08-03-2015 10:34 PM
  21. shloime's Avatar
    Didn't somebody say that cityman will have the radios to work with all carriers? Motorola just came out with a phone like that: the moto x . If that's the case, we'll buy it straight from Microsoft and it will work perfectly fine on Verizon
    08-04-2015 12:29 AM
  22. gernerttl's Avatar
    Didn't somebody say that cityman will have the radios to work with all carriers? Motorola just came out with a phone like that: the moto x . If that's the case, we'll buy it straight from Microsoft and it will work perfectly fine on Verizon
    Yes. Mr. MacPhisto did. Yes, that would be in everybody's best interest. Not just Microsoft's either. We will benefit and Verizon will benefit too.
    08-04-2015 02:30 AM
  23. gernerttl's Avatar
    Currently have AT&T and the service is horrible sometimes. Verizon is the best carrier around here by far.
    Yes that is true. Of course this whole thread is moot if Microsoft produces a Lumia that works on all networks. I would spend the extra cash and just swap out my Icon.
    08-04-2015 02:42 AM
  24. espete's Avatar
    Just a reminder that if you are out of contact you get a month to month discount. More Everything plans with 4 GB or under can get a $15 a month discount and plans with 6 GB and over can get a $25 discount. 6 of my 10 lines are out of contract and are getting the $25 discount. Saving $150 off my bill monthly. You just have to log into your account and add the feature. I'm not sure where it was anymore, either under products & apps our under My Plan. There is a button you click and it will tell you what lines are able to be discounted.
    08-04-2015 02:46 PM
  25. gernerttl's Avatar
    Just a reminder that if you are out of contact you get a month to month discount. More Everything plans with 4 GB or under can get a $15 a month discount and plans with 6 GB and over can get a $25 discount. 6 of my 10 lines are out of contract and are getting the $25 discount. Saving $150 off my bill monthly. You just have to log into your account and add the feature. I'm not sure where it was anymore, either under products & apps our under My Plan. There is a button you click and it will tell you what lines are able to be discounted.
    I'm saving $60/month. I only have one line that is not month to month and that will change in a couple months.

    P.S. And a 15% military/veteran's discount.
    Last edited by gernerttl; 08-04-2015 at 07:20 PM.
    08-04-2015 03:25 PM
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