The Verizon Debacle

[theefman]

I'm not being loyal to a faceless corporation wireless carrier. I don't have a choice but to use them. Sprint and AT&T coverage is garbage here. I'm not going to pay all this money for a device I can't use half the time because of lack of coverage. The fact of the matter is that it hurts Microsoft, not Verizon, to not have these phones offered at Verizon stores, plain and simple.

Undoubtedly there will be people in your situation with coverage but overall I think its ultimately a positive to bypass Verizon. Pandering to them, giving them exclusivity only for the benefit of the few WP fans on their network really isn't the best move compared to going with a GSM carrier like ATT and selling unlocked.

​This is as close to a white flag as we will see. This is the beginning of the end. If they won't try to fight and win with the biggest carrier, they are packing it in. This is Zune, all over, again.
Joe Belfiore should lose his job over this (I can hear the fan boys screaming now.) He either failed to negotiate a good deal with Verizon or failed to deliver a compelling product story to them to get them on board. Ultimately, he owns it. Time for Joe to go. I don't think he will, though, because Nadella couldn't care less about WP.

Go ahead and jumps hip to AT&T, but within 2 years you will be on an Android or iPhone from them because Windows Phone is terminally ill and Microsoft has given the do not resuscitate order.

Sorry, no.

 

[juanitoriv]

White flag? Do not resuscitate? They have shown exactly the opposite by creating an operating system that will allow apps to run across all devices it will increase the quality apps for the phone.

Microsoft has a plan in place that has nothing to do with competing in the market with iOS and Android. The idea is to forge ahead by creating an entirely NEW market.

The problem with all the "gloom and doom" preachers we hear is that they keep repeating, "Microsoft in the smart phone market is dead. They have no chance to catch up." That's true. Microsoft realized that years ago. That's why they aren't trying to catch up. They've taken a new path to just bypass the competition and take the market into an entirely new direction with Continuum, Windows Hello, and apps that will run on a large range of devices from a watch, to a phone, to an Xbox, to a HoloLens, to a tablet, to a PC, to a Surface Hub, and to the Internet of Things with devices that don't even have screens.

Just as iPhone redefined the smartphone, and was the "next big thing" after the Symbian devices, Windows 10 for mobile will redefine where things go "after the smartphone." The end goal here is to make the smart phone obsolete, not compete with it. With the direction Microsoft is taking, they want you to have not just a phone in your pocket, but an entire Windows ecosystem experience which includes the desktop model by using Continuum. If they succeed with this bold move, then iOS and Android won't be able to compete until THEY catch up.

It's going to be hard to catch up, because Microsoft has a big lead and they aren't standing still.

It's kind of like how Microsoft saw the revealing of the iPhone and scoffed at it, saying it would never get anywhere. So did a LOT of people in tech. Some of those same people are saying the same thing about Windows 10, but at the same time, Windows 10 has generated a lot of excitement from people who have been anti-Microsoft for a long time.

It's hard to ignore what is happening with Windows 10. It makes a lot of Anti-Microsoft people angry and scared. It also makes a lot of anti-Microsoft people sit up and take notice while thinking, "Maybe Microsoft isn't so bad after all."

Yeah, we're going to see big things happen over the next few years. It's an exciting time to be alive if you're into watching tech develop.

That's exactly why Windows 10 is free for a whole year


T

 

[Kavu2]

>Rhapdog
"I have found that there are very few areas in my region of the US where Verizon can best AT&T coverage. As a matter of fact, with all the traveling I have done in the Southeast United States, I have yet to find a place where I couldn't get AT&T LTE service or cell service."

You need to get out more. Try traveling anywhere in the Rocky Mtns states....a HUGE area from the Canadien border to Mexico....1/4 the area of the US. In these areas if you stay put in a reasonably sized city(read medium or better), then you can go with any carrier. But there are an enormous number of people who live in rural areas...with mtns. restricting coverage. Only Verizon is reliable. If you do any traveling in the Rockies at all (and if you're rural then you're traveling)...if you leave the freeway...you're done. Again, only Verizon is reliable.

Now all that said.... I hate Verizon for their attitude first and foremost and additionally their pandering to Android and Apple. But for my geographical needs, Verizon is the only option that makes sense. I can't go back to dropped calls...I can't and I won't.

Verizon is where rock meets its hard place and guess who's stuck between them?

Phone gods...just take me now and end my suffering.

 

[tangledW]

>Rhapdog
"I have found that there are very few areas in my region of the US where Verizon can best AT&T coverage. As a matter of fact, with all the traveling I have done in the Southeast United States, I have yet to find a place where I couldn't get AT&T LTE service or cell service."

You need to get out more. Try traveling anywhere in the Rocky Mtns states....a HUGE area from the Canadien border to Mexico....1/4 the area of the US. In these areas if you stay put in a reasonably sized city(read medium or better), then you can go with any carrier. But there are an enormous number of people who live in rural areas...with mtns. restricting coverage. Only Verizon is reliable. If you do any traveling in the Rockies at all (and if you're rural then you're traveling)...if you leave the freeway...you're done. Again, only Verizon is reliable.

Now all that said.... I hate Verizon for their attitude first and foremost and additionally their pandering to Android and Apple. But for my geographical needs, Verizon is the only option that makes sense. I can't go back to dropped calls...I can't and I won't.

Verizon is where rock meets its hard place and guess who's stuck between them?

Phone gods...just take me now and end my suffering.

Well, I travel all of the country for work - going from metro to rural areas frequently, I probably spend more time in rural areas.

I carry both an AT&T phone (personal, Lumia 830) and a Verizon phone (business, iPhone 5S) and there are also large rural areas where Verizon signal doesn't exist at all while AT&T signal is as strong as it gets. Particularly in west Texas and the southwest US.

I actually just spent over a month in Colorado and didn't see much difference between the two.

My experience has shown that it's almost 50/50 in rural areas, when I don't have AT&T service - I have Verizon... and when there's no Verizon signal, I have AT&T.

Most people don't travel enough for that to matter. What matters is how it works where you live.

AT&T is not that great where I live, but thanks to the selective call forwarding of my Lumia with the Calls+ app, I get my calls anyway.

 

[rhapdog]

You need to get out more. Try traveling anywhere in the Rocky Mtns states

Yeah, like I said. I get out a lot, but in the Southeast US. I'm nowhere near the Rocky Mountains. The Smoky Mountain areas where I've been don't have the AT&T problems.

I haven't travelled across the Rocky Mountains since before I had a cell phone. Back then, coverage wasn't an issue since I didn't have a phone.

I'd suggest you move where I live, but it's too hot and humid to wish it on anyone. Sometimes I actually miss the dry heat from West Texas. Temperature never got above 93 degrees F here today, but the heat index was over 110 F. Humidity. I don't need a stinking sauna. The whole of outdoors is one right now.

I would hope that Verizon will have a change of heart, it's just that I don't expect it. I also think the worst thing Microsoft could do is to cave into any demands that Verizon makes that would cripple Windows 10 for mobile. Apple didn't cave. Customers suffered, but in the long run, the customers at Verizon now get a better deal with iPhone because Apple DID stick to their guns. Now Apple gets to control the updates and what models that Verizon carries. Microsoft will have to stick to their guns or Verizon will always treat them badly. Only when the mobile division has grown to maturity, as iPhone did, will Verizon come begging, and I believe that they will.

 

[tangledW]

​This is as close to a white flag as we will see. This is the beginning of the end. If they won't try to fight and win with the biggest carrier, they are packing it in. This is Zune, all over, again.
Joe Belfiore should lose his job over this (I can hear the fan boys screaming now.) He either failed to negotiate a good deal with Verizon or failed to deliver a compelling product story to them to get them on board. Ultimately, he owns it. Time for Joe to go. I don't think he will, though, because Nadella couldn't care less about WP.

Go ahead and jumps hip to AT&T, but within 2 years you will be on an Android or iPhone from them because Windows Phone is terminally ill and Microsoft has given the do not resuscitate order.

I guess apple didn't do their job with Verizon either, because it took years for them to carry the iPhone.

 

[anon(7901790)]

For now I will hold on to my trusty Icon for as long as possible. If in the end, I have to go back to Android, I probably will.

I've seen so many posts in other threads here as well as on other forums, VZW's included, about I'm jumping if I don't get what I want. I believe many of those threats were empty. Also, the ones that actually do follow through are not doing it on a lark, and it is probably easy(er) to do. But, for those of us who have family type plans, it's much more problematic. For me to jump to AT&T, because that would be the only carrier worth jumping too, would require getting THREE new phones, not just one. And those phones are not all in the same location. One of those phones is brand new, another is not a smart phone and is 5,000 miles away from where we live. Finally, Verizon's network reliability is a major factor for me. I jumped to Verizon from Sprint because Sprint's network was becoming more unreliable and I had spotty coverage in places I either worked, or stayed. Also, most of my family, and many of my friends had Verizon, which just made the decision that much easier. Especially, since at the time, Verizon had free Verizon-to-Verizon mobile calls.

So, regardless of how awesome Cityman and Talkman are, I can't see jumping carriers just to get them as a practical or viable option for me and my family. I'll just go back to Android until Verizon pulls its head out and starts selling Microsoft devices again. If Verizon gets a CDMA version of those phones, then it's all good. If not, well...like I said the device is just one piece of a multi-layered cake...and not necessarily the most important piece,

 

[dkediger]

This will be horrible for me. ATT has very hit/miss reception for both my work and home locations. Which is odd, since along the interstate and US highways leading all directions there is great reception - and just bleh inside the city.

I can understand the breakup from a technology perspective: Just build for GSM and leave CDMA on its slow march to oblivion.

Still, I would like to see something on the back-story of the whole Vzw/MS saga. It reminds me of a college roommate and his girlfriend who would run the whole gamut of emotions in their relationship each and every night over the phone. It seems Vzw/MS are that couple that would be really good together but don't want to fully commit and are stuck trying to convince reach other that "Its me, not you..."

 

[TheZuneLune]

White flag? Do not resuscitate? They have shown exactly the opposite by creating an operating system that will allow apps to run across all devices it will increase the quality apps for the phone.

Microsoft has a plan in place that has nothing to do with competing in the market with iOS and Android. The idea is to forge ahead by creating an entirely NEW market.

The problem with all the "gloom and doom" preachers we hear is that they keep repeating, "Microsoft in the smart phone market is dead. They have no chance to catch up." That's true. Microsoft realized that years ago. That's why they aren't trying to catch up. They've taken a new path to just bypass the competition and take the market into an entirely new direction with Continuum, Windows Hello, and apps that will run on a large range of devices from a watch, to a phone, to an Xbox, to a HoloLens, to a tablet, to a PC, to a Surface Hub, and to the Internet of Things with devices that don't even have screens.

Just as iPhone redefined the smartphone, and was the "next big thing" after the Symbian devices, Windows 10 for mobile will redefine where things go "after the smartphone." The end goal here is to make the smart phone obsolete, not compete with it. With the direction Microsoft is taking, they want you to have not just a phone in your pocket, but an entire Windows ecosystem experience which includes the desktop model by using Continuum. If they succeed with this bold move, then iOS and Android won't be able to compete until THEY catch up.

It's going to be hard to catch up, because Microsoft has a big lead and they aren't standing still.

It's kind of like how Microsoft saw the revealing of the iPhone and scoffed at it, saying it would never get anywhere. So did a LOT of people in tech. Some of those same people are saying the same thing about Windows 10, but at the same time, Windows 10 has generated a lot of excitement from people who have been anti-Microsoft for a long time.

It's hard to ignore what is happening with Windows 10. It makes a lot of Anti-Microsoft people angry and scared. It also makes a lot of anti-Microsoft people sit up and take notice while thinking, "Maybe Microsoft isn't so bad after all."

Yeah, we're going to see big things happen over the next few years. It's an exciting time to be alive if you're into watching tech develop.

Have you evenbothered to read any articles about how developers responded to the whole crossplatform pitch? Their thought is, "Why bother?" They see no advantagewhen they already have apps in the Android and iOS ecosystems. None of the newapps being developed by businesses are going to WP users. When is the last timeyou saw an app or product advertised and it had all three logos for their app?Instead, banks and airlines have closed their apps. This is all observable andmeasurable.

On top of a poor appmarket, Microsoft has given all of the key differentiators to iOS and AndroidiOS. Shall we review:

• Office
• Cortana
• Microsoft Band
• Miscellaneous apps, that are available for other ecosystems and not WP.

And, these are allrecent move - in other words, it's the new trend.

These are not themoves of a company looking to differentiate themselves from the theircompetitors, which is how companies win. Now, they take themselves out of thegame by failing to win over Big Red. Debacle was exactly the right word forthis thread. They owned the mobile market with Windows Mobile. They let it die,tried to reinvent it, and are now letting it die again.

Sufrace Hub andHololens are great, but the number of users will be quite small compared to themobile phone market. They aren't going to win big audiences with those. TheSurface is their most compelling device on the market now, and it has not wonlarge audiences over to WP.

The whole one screenidea is nice, just 5 years too late.

I will miss WP,believe me. But make no mistake it is on the way out the door.

 

[TheZuneLune]

I guess apple didn't do their job with Verizon either, because it took years for them to carry the iPhone.

As if they had trouble getting developers or selling devices....When you're in last place, you can't give up on the biggest carrier.

 

[hopmedic]

Personally I think this is good. What is the point of wasting time with carriers who aren't all in.

If only.... It must be nice to live where the carrier doesn't make a difference in the coverage. No. There is nothing good about this.

I've made the decision that if they don't have the new Microsoft flagship I'm jumping ship. I know it's not going to matter to them but I'm not going to keep getting screwed over by Verizon

Ditto. I'm going to jump ship, but I already know that I'm going to have to give up coverage to do so.

All this is so disappointing. I love my reception with Verizon but I refuse to give up on Windows Phone.

Same here.

Yeah, like I said. I get out a lot, but in the Southeast US. I'm nowhere near the Rocky Mountains.

I live an hour from Atlanta and the difference is big. Everyone at my church who has ATT has to step out into the parking lot to talk on the phone. I don't on Verizon. An insurance lady came to my house, and sitting in my kitchen couldn't use her ATT enabled laptop, and wasn't allowed to connect to my WiFi. I sat there with 4 bars of LTE on my Icon. The entire southeast is not wrapped up in ATT's coverage. It all depends on where you are. Wherever you are is what determines who has the best coverage. If I do switch to ATT, I'll have to get two of their network extenders (the ones that connect to your internet) to cover my house, and then the rest of my half acre of paradise won't be covered. Hopefully I won't have to make that sacrifice, but it may come to it to stick with Windows Phone.

 

[hopmedic]

I wrote up this thread, in which I tell of writing to Marni Walden, Executive Vice President and President of Product Innovation and New Businesses at Verizon. Here's the link to the thread, which includes my letter to her.
http://forums.windowscentral.com/ge...-lounge/368844-microsofts-future-verizon.html

 

[Greywolf1967]

The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!

VZW does not want to let Microsoft handle the updates....fine no phones for VZW to have in their store.....make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....Money in the Cash drawer. If people start to treat VZW as a BYOD carrier, they will quickly change their tune !!!!

 

[hopmedic]

The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!

VZW does not want to let Microsoft handle the updates....fine no phones for VZW to have in their store.....make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....Money in the Cash drawer. If people start to treat VZW as a BYOD carrier, they will quickly change their tune !!!!

An unlocked CDMA phone would be nice, but I'm not sure it's that simple. I'm not saying it isn't - I don't know. What I can tell you is that I once had a Sprint Arrive, and had left Verizon, and Verizon was trying to get me back (this was shortly before they launched Trophy), and I told them that I wanted to be able to activate the Sprint phone (CDMA) on Verizon, and they said they couldn't do it. That may have been frequency differences, but I was also told at one point that Verizon had to approve any phone that was to come onto their network, that it wasn't as simple as it is with GSM where you can drop in a SIM.

Like I said, it would be nice if you're right - and if MS does it, but I have my doubts based on that experience.

 

[tgp]

That may have been frequency differences, but I was also told at one point that Verizon had to approve any phone that was to come onto their network, that it wasn't as simple as it is with GSM where you can drop in a SIM.

There are 3 unlocked phones that I know of into which you can simply insert a Verizon SIM you're good to go:

1. Unlocked iPhone 6
2. Unlocked iPhone 6+
3. Nexus 6 (North American version, and not AT&T's)

Otherwise, you're pretty much stuck with what Verizon approves.

 

[anon(7901790)]

The best thing Microsoft can do is to go full speed ahead !!! The path they are on will in the long run work out !!!

Agreed, regardless of which carriers carry its devices.

make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store. VZW starts to see Windows 10 Mobile phone joining their network, and they had no hand in selling they notice the bottom line.....

CDMA doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as a "CDMA unlocked" device. CDMA requires a key that is directly tied to the carrier. That CDMA key is baked into the device's firmware not the OS. Verizon controls that key, NOT Microsoft. That is why a Sprint CDMA phone won't work on Verizon's network and vice versa.

I can understand the breakup from a technology perspective: Just build for GSM and leave CDMA on its slow march to oblivion.

Verizon is getting rid of its CDMA network...it just takes a while. They have millions of devices that will have to eventually be replaced with VoLTE devices. That is the route that all US carriers are taking. GSM and CDMA are both on the way out and everything will be data only. It is a long term project, that will ultimately simplify network operations (and therefore reduce costs) for all of the carriers, not just Verizon. It will also allow the consumer (us) to shop around for the best deals and not have to worry about getting a new phone, if they don't want to.

 

[RumoredNow]

This is as close to a white flag as we will see. This is the beginning of the end. If they won't try to fight and win with the biggest carrier, they are packing it in.

Sorry, that is incorrect. Read deeper into the situation: Bloomberg ? Microsoft 'expects to make its own phones for at least the next two years' | Windows Central

Microsoft is likely to exit deals with carriers that are not productive to their bottom line as well:

"The company also will exit carrier relationships and countries where it hasn't been successful, the person said, although it will continue to sell handsets in the U.S. because of the market's size and significance."​

The relationship with Verizon is not enhancing Microsoft's bottom line. So it will change for the betterment of Microsoft or it will cease. It's a strategic realignment of priorities. Carriers are in the business of making phones obsolete the moment they leave the showroom. Couple that with demands for exclusivity on high end models that languish on the shelves while the carries push other product and it is a disaster for Windows Phone. Doing an end around carriers is easy on GSM. CDMA locks out BYOD by default. It is also an anachronistic system held over too long from the past. It's BetaMax to GSM's VHS.

It's only Verizon's fault that you can't BYOD on their network. Anyone can do the math and realize that Vzw getting an exclusive on a flagship is cutting out way more users than it will reach on Big Red. So they have to be chucked over the side.

Don't confuse pragmatism with defeat.

​

 

[anon(7901790)]

There are 3 unlocked phones that I know of into which you can simply insert a Verizon SIM you're good to go:

1. Unlocked iPhone 6
2. Unlocked iPhone 6+
3. Nexus 6 (North American version, and not AT&T's)

Otherwise, you're pretty much stuck with what Verizon approves.

Like I said in my previous post. There is no such thing as an "unlocked" CDMA device. The unlocked piece is the GSM/LTE which does not require a special key like CDMA does.

 

[RumoredNow]

make a CDMA Unlocked Phone and sell it in a Microsoft Store.

It would never get activated in the United States... The CDMA carriers refuse to put MEIDs into their database unless they come through their loading docks as stock for sale in their stores. Without that database entry the servers that control their network refuse to see the phone.

 

[hopmedic]

It would never get activated in the United States... The CDMA carriers refuse to put MEIDs into their database unless they come through their loading docks as stock for sale in their stores. Without that database entry the servers that control their network refuse to see the phone.

That is pretty much how I figured it worked. And you have the MVNO carriers with their phones, but surely those phones' MEIDs are in the database, and they're limited to 3G in all cases that I'm aware of, as well.