The Verizon Debacle

[Doctor_Who]

Thank you Dustin for sharing. Its interesting to read this from someone "on the inside". I'm definitely on the outside. I'd like to encourage Verizon to sell Windows Phones more by beefing up commissions on selling the phones, but I've no influence in that area.

 

[Zippier]

Two perfect storms have been brewing. The "app gap*" on Windows Mobile and this, the "Verizon Debacle". I told myself, if just one of them subsided it would be fine.

*an app gap to me is a lack of my bank, my credit card, my local news stations, my local grocer, local news channels, my cable (Comcast/Xfinity) company.

On one hand, if the "app gap" continued (I don't expect all my universal apps overnight) but Verizon got either of the two 950 series phones, I'd stick with Windows Phone and tough it out as I waited for the apps to fill in.

Then again, if the "app gap" showed some signs of fading (yeah I know it's still a little early) but Verizon didn't get either of the 950 series phones I'd jump ship and say good bye to Verizon.

However, neither seem to be abating. Here I am paying good money and not enjoying my phone the way I should. Don't get my wrong I love the OS and everything about it but when will developers see the potential of the untapped market?

In the past 4 years I have introduced two people to Windows Phones. Both either converted back to iOS or to Android because they couldn't use the apps previously enjoyed or that everyone else was using.

I still have my Icon and soon the Preview for Developers will be out for Windows 10, so I'll stick it out a bit longer. Regardless, I've already started to try and figure out my options and how I'll save face if people were to see me on a *gulp* non Windows Phone.

Until that fast approaching day arrives I'm holding out hope for some kind of miracle or even just a semi-abatement of both storms.

However, I highly doubt it. I know how things work for me. Seriously, I drive a VW with a diesel engine so I'm sure I'll have to settle here too.

 

[Polychrome]

Another one from the Verizon side. As usual, my opinions don't equal the company's or whatever, but I can give some insight.

There's no active "dislike" or hatred or anything of the sort of Windows Phones within the company. Heck, there's a few WP fangirls at my call center, myself obviously included.

The software and network is what it is. CDMA is what got Verizon to the network reliability that they enjoy today, and it is what made AT&T lag behind us in signal and usability for so many years. They pride themselves on that reliability and they do not want the possibility of a rogue software update causing mass problems.

Now, before people jump on me with examples on what has or has not happened on other phones, I will not say that it has never happened. Nor will I say that I always agree on the heavy software testing standards. However they are consistent in how they treat the manufacturers on the subject if nothing else. I have observed this occurring in every phone from the Samsung Galaxy line to the Blackberry Storm. The androids are treated with very strict standards. Sometimes they make you wait 2 or 3 software versions. I think, if anything, Verizon would rather not have a "Lollipop" situation on a daily basis where the reps spend all day trying to convince the customers that it's time to hard reset their phones because their apps didn't like that update. Apple? Well, if nothing else, they are extremely good about planning ahead. The reason their updates appear so "quick" is they get them certified months in advance.

And the windows 10 update? If my installing it on my Icon is any indicator, it's a lollipop waiting to happen.

So what should we expect in the future?

First off, I'd like to mention that if the phone has the right tech built in, there's nothing preventing a user from activating it. Our billing system may not recognize the phone, but if it supports the technologies on the sim, go nuts. You will have to insert your sim into a device VZW recognizes to perform plan changes on your own however. With that said, there was nothing stopping Microsoft from pulling a Google and making a device which supported the network without getting Verizon's strict approval. Nothing. (Which means the new devices likely won't support Sprint either.)

Second, just because Microsoft isn't continuing with Verizon devices does not stop companies like HTC or LG (that's a new one) from jumping in with their own windows phones, and rumors I've heard are suggesting exactly that. And quite frankly, I like HTC. I wouldn't mind my Icon being replaced by a windows version of the M9 or something. This is the position that Paul Thurrott should have taken...that Microsoft's phones are not the only windows phones on the block, and that there may be opportunities opening in the future. A company should NEVER be the one spreading FUD. Shame on him.

And third, Verizon is currently working on transitioning to an entirely VoLTE voice and data network, but such things take time. Lots of time. Once VoLTE is the norm rather than a nerd toy, you'll start seeing more "universal" devices that work on Verizon. For what it's worth, both of the recent VZW windows phones, despite being modest in size, support VoLTE.

Also, if T-Mobile has anything to say on the matter, it wasn't Verizon doing the snubbing:

Microsoft Doesn't Really Want to Sell Windows Phones in the U.S. | Sascha Segan | PCMag.com

Sources weigh in on limited US carrier interest in Microsoft?s new Lumia 950 phones | Pocketnow

New Lumias continue Windows Phone?s frustrating carrier situation | Ars Technica

It's sounding like the real situation is that there is a vague exclusivity deal going on. As the last article explains, google could do it, so there's no reason Microsoft couldn't too. There have been many, MANY cooked ROMs on the Android side that have made it work as well. (Sometimes with bugs or issues, but once again, that's what the strict software testing standards are about.) Contrary to the belief I've seen around here, there's no VZW-exclusive magic fairy dust that makes CDMA work, and other countries with CDMA networks (such as Asian countries) have used SIM cards on them for years. If apple can do it, if google can do it, if kiddie programmers in their mom's basement can do it, so can Microsoft.

 

[thinkitthrough]

Hello,
I'm wondering what the specs for "cellular connectivity" mean for the "Lumia 950 Dual SIM" on Microsoft's website, relative to that particular model working on Verizon's CDMA & LTE networks. Any legitimate feedback from either Verizon employees or genuinely knowledgeable technical types will be appreciated.
Thank you

MS webpage: www_microsoft_com/en/mobile/phone/lumia950-dual-sim/specifications/#head_connectivity (NOTE: I can't post links yet, so you'll have to substitute the underscore characters with periods)

 

[Polychrome]

Just going by your post...Well, it has the right LTE bands. I'd give it a HUGE maybe assuming it supported VoLTE. Just remember WCDMA is not the same CDMA that VZW uses for their 1X voice network, so even if VoLTE is supported, your voice coverage may not be as good...yet. Also you'll have to activate VoLTE while your SIM is in a VZW phone.

I'd say that if you're trying to hunt down a dual sim device that handles CDMA, a Chinese phone is probably your best bet. That said, can't really think of any brands I'd push you toward.

On a side note, they've been trying to add some non-vzw models of phones that are known to support VZW's frequencies to our device database so that you'll have less trouble self-provisioning them, but there's not a lot there yet.

 

[thinkitthrough]

Thank you for that reply, it's good to have that clarification.

I guess I'll have to wait until Verizon & Microsoft get on the same page (or if not Microsoft, some other hardware maker that supports Windows 10 Mobile and Verizon's networks). I definitely want Windows 10 Mobile, and I definitely want to switch form Sprint to Verizon, so I'll just have to wait until the HW makers, Microsoft & VZ collectively get their acts together.

The dual-SIM isn't a hard-and-fast requirement, more of a nice-to-have. But to me, the ideal mobile phone is an unlocked, carrier-agnostic "world phone" in terms of RF capability (like iPhones - compatible with 90% of the world's current voice & data networks), with dual active SIMs.

This whole thing with Windows 10 Mobile being introduced in the US with no support for Verizon (or Sprint) CDMA networks (which combined represent roughly half of all US wireless customers) is totally annoying, frustrating and absolutely unnecessary. I don't know which parties need to be whooped with the blame stick, but whoever is to blame for those decisions really needs to be closely reviewed/examined as to whether they are fully competent at their jobs. It's a bunch of crap, and someone should be punished for the sheer stupidity of this result. I assume it will be corrected within a few months, but really, it's totally unacceptable and if I was king today, those responsible better have unimpeachable reasoning, or they'd be out of work instantly.

 

[Auggybendoggy]

Ambass, I totally agree except for the part about obsoleting the smart phone. I don't think they're tying to do that. I believe they realize the smart phone isn't going anywhere and that if they don't solidify their place in the enterprise market, then it really will spell doom for them as a major player. Thus surface is where they're placing all their chips. Get surfaces into the enterprise and then people start switching at home.

To be sure, the PC was was won by Microsoft because of the enterprise, not the other way around. I believe that is their end game. Establish a presence in the enterprise with a mobile/tablet option while showing off exciting gadgets like Hololens and you'll soon have people considering their market. If the Surface phone should spark some excitement, carriers like V will want to get on board. But the spark has to be there.

 

[Mark Morales]

I just noticed that Verizon's band 13 was added to the specs of the Lumia 950...

microsoft.com/en-us/mobile/phone/lumia950/specifications/

Cellular connectivity2
GSM network: 850 MHz, 900 MHz, 1800 MHz, 1900 MHz
GSM max data speed DL: EGPRS 236.8 kbps
GSM max data speed UL: EGPRS 118.4 kbps
WCDMA network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850 MHz), Band 8 (900 MHz)
WCDMA max data speed DL: 42.2 Mbps (Cat 24)
WCDMA max data speed UL: 5.76 Mbps (Cat 6)
LTE FDD network: Band 1 (2100 MHz), Band 2 (1900 MHz), Band 3 (1800 MHz), Band 4 (1700/2100 MHz), Band 5 (850MHz), Band 7 (2600 MHz), Band 8 (900MHz), Band 12 (700 MHz), Band 13 (700MHz), Band 20 (800MHz), Band 28 (700 MHz)
LTE max data speed DL: 450 Mbps (Cat 9)
LTE max data speed UL: 50 Mbps (Cat 6)
.

 

[Polychrome]

Interesting, very interesting. If going to a Microsoft store didn't involve driving to the next state, I'd go check it out.

Keep in mind that getting this working on voice may require a SIM provisioned with VoLTE ahead of time (such as one for a Lancet or 735), as I still think CDMA support is missing from the device, and signal may not be as good in rural areas.

 

[to_be_announced]

What this all comes down to is Microsoft could have included CDMA support on these phones. They didn't. While Verizon isn't the best partner for WP, obviously, there was still no reason to not include CDMA in the phone for the fans, since that's who this phone is geared towards.

Carriers have even come out stating MSFT didn't even approach them. T-Mobile did it. At least those on that platform can still use the phone though. Verizon has come out now too and said they were never even approached about the phone.

 

[anon(7901790)]

What this all comes down to is Microsoft could have included CDMA support on these phones. They didn't. While Verizon isn't the best partner for WP, obviously, there was still no reason to not include CDMA in the phone for the fans, since that's who this phone is geared towards.

Especially when you consider that there is close to 100 carriers worldwide that use CDMA2000 for their 3G voice and text networks. By not including CDMA, Microsoft excluded millions of potential customers.

If Motorola can do it with the Moto X Pure, why can't Microsoft?

The greatest irony is that the Icon can connect to more voice and data networks worldwide than the 950/950XL, and that is a phone that is coming up on being around for almost 2 years. It can even connect to more networks worldwide than the 930. All because CDMA was included.

 

[dkediger]

While Verizon isn't the best partner for WP, obviously, there was still no reason to not include CDMA in the phone for the fans, since that's who this phone is geared towards.

Especially when you consider that there is close to 100 carriers worldwide that use CDMA2000 for their 3G voice and text networks. By not including CDMA, Microsoft excluded millions of potential customers.

If Motorola can do it with the Moto X Pure, why can't Microsoft?

The greatest irony is that the Icon can connect to more voice and data networks worldwide than the 950/950XL, and that is a phone that is coming up on being around for almost 2 years. It can even connect to more networks worldwide than the 930. All because CDMA was included.

Both of these are spot on - and why I've been terming the lack of CDMA inclusion an existential crisis for Microsoft in terms of mobile. They can't honestly talk about being committed to mobile, they can't honestly serenade Apple, and not look foolish for this.

If its intentional, in order to reward or alternately punish a carrier, its a giant WTF that stands out like a sore thumb contrasted to the new "kinder, gentler" Microsoft. Want to impress me as a customer - go serenade Verizon. Until then, they've thrown a lot of good customers, fans, overboard and their continued silence on the matter is deafening. Say something, anything. Let us as customers go in peace or give us something solid to hang on to. A product roadmap, a commitment it'll be on the Surface phone, or a statement that it not's going to happen no way, no how. One or the other - just anything.

If its an oversight, you're Microsoft by God. One of the largest and best capitalized tech companies there is. This isn't a resource problem from a money standpoint. Bing and Xbox and Surface and countless other products - Office even going way back - attest to that. The old saying that it costs far less to keep good customers than it does to earn new ones is more true in the tech industry than probably any other segment. Again - managing complex projects/products is their forte. Letting Mobile languish just because of, well, "its hard," is not what they've been. Its not what customers and decision makers like to see. It doesn't inspire confidence that they can do better.

At some point they either have to really do it and get it done and prove to everyone that they can do it, or they, well, don't. There are countless motivational sayings that encapsulate that idea, some cruder than others. I'll stick with these two:

"The future is now."
"Do or do not, there is no try."

 

[to_be_announced]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, I'm sad that the other thread on this subject was closed.

Linky

 

[dkediger]

Yeah - I'm afraid this topic in the larger picture will just get pushed to the bottom and written off as being Microsoft and Verizon just being Microsoft and Verizon. I think it does need to be kept to the fore - if for no other reason as to get Microsoft to officially say something. It does impact us as users - individually and as businesses - which means it impacts Microsoft. They want me to commit time and effort to imagining and integrating Windows 10 into my business enterprise and personal life, but deny me access to a leg of that stool: Mobile. They're also denying 100% of the other businesses where I live/work, as ATT barely has outdoor signal, let alone indoor.

Its just baffling overall. Some of it makes sense in bits and pieces, but when you consider the whole it just "what in the wide world of sports...."

 

[to_be_announced]

I guess now we start crossing our fingers for the next flagship. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[anon(7901790)]

There is the Surface Phone. Supposedly, that will be geared more towards enterprise users; which, historically, Microsoft has been very good at. There is a reason why Windows is the most used desktop/laptop OS and Office is the most used productivity suite. Bill Gates understood that to get into homes, he needed to get into the enterprise first. The Microsoft Office HUP has been, and still is a resounding success. Getting the SP3 (and now SP4) into enterprise hands has also helped (from what I gather the deal with the NFL is a success). So why not try the enterprise model with a phone? As more people use a Windows mobile device for work, Microsoft will start getting more (and better) feedback for improvements and added features. Eventually, it becomes a snow ball and people will start wanting to use one for both personal and business use.

This will get more devices into peoples' hands and because of that, there will be a higher demand for more of the quality apps that Android and iPhone users enjoy. Eventually, it will become a self-licking ice cream cone.

Microsoft just has to make sure the phone is carrier agnostic like the Moto X Pure.

 

[anon(7901790)]

I have a confession. I just went to the Dark Side a few days ago. I got an iPhone 6s Plus. Microsoft let me down by not including CDMA in the 950/950XL, and I got tired of my M9 being temperamental.

There are some things I do miss. Namely, reading texts over BT and the excellent camera. I just got tired of Android's jerkiness and having to restart my phone two or even three times a day.

It's not goodbye Microsoft though. I am NOT going to dump my SP3 or desktop for an iPad and a Mac. It's more of I'll be back...

 

[dkediger]

I did the same two weeks ago. Went with a Droid Turbo 2 via Motomaker. Getting reacquainted with Android's idiosyncracies and going to lengths to Micrsoft-ize it as much as I can. Biggest problem there is finding a nice looking calendar widget that syncs with Outlook.com natively. I don't want to reverse my email flow back to gmail to make it all work. I went with Android as I had been there prior to my 928, and I didn't want to establish identity in a thrid platform.

Likewise, I'll still remain around here. My profession is Microsoft-centric. One of my self-directed focus' this year is studying untethering our front end sales floor from their desktops and desk phones. Microsoft could have made this a hell of a lot more interesting by making the phones CDMA compatible/certified. Its pretty evident there won't be anything of note in the Verizon/WP/Microsoft arena for months to come and I really don't have much hope they'll do right with the Surface phone either.

 

[anon(7901790)]

I don't want to reverse my email flow back to gmail to make it all work. I went with Android as I had been there prior to my 928, and I didn't want to establish identity in a thrid platform

I believe that Outlook has a widget. But...yeah, I know how you feel when I went back to Android for a short time.

I had no problem "Microsoftizing" my iPhone. My Gmail has been forwarded to Outlook for years (since my 928 days). I use Outlook and I get all of my calendar notifications no problems and iCloud synchs with Outlook 2016 nicely. I also have no problems with OneNote or any other Microsoft app (I wish Hyperlapse was available though). I miss widgets...but really not all that much. What I do miss is Live Tiles though. Once you actually use them, you don't realize how useful they are until you have a phone that doesn't have them.

I wasn't worried about being in a 3rd ecosystem. I already had an iPod touch and classic, so it was not that hard.

 

[Laura Knotek]

I believe that Outlook has a widget. But...yeah, I know how you feel when I went back to Android for a short time.

I had no problem "Microsoftizing" my iPhone. My Gmail has been forwarded to Outlook for years (since my 928 days). I use Outlook and I get all of my calendar notifications no problems and iCloud synchs with Outlook 2016 nicely. I also have no problems with OneNote or any other Microsoft app (I wish Hyperlapse was available though). I miss widgets...but really not all that much. What I do miss is Live Tiles though. Once you actually use them, you don't realize how useful they are until you have a phone that doesn't have them.

I wasn't worried about being in a 3rd ecosystem. I already had an iPod touch and classic, so it was not that hard.

Hyperlapse is available for Android. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.microsoft.hyperlapsemobile