Without Verizon support, is WM10 DOA?

[TheZuneLune]

Since when is Verizon, one of 4 US carriers, that relevant for the whole planet ?

Look, I get that people in small markets feel put out by the OP premise, but when you look at revenue, yes, I believe that the lack of support by VZ, along with a lack of real commitment from MS is spelling a dead OS. Why do I say this?

• They missed the boat with mobile payments, completely.
• They have had to rely on Lumia devices For innovations. OEMs are not developing innovation for WP and the restrictions keep OEMs from software innovation.
• The have never recovered from the app gap. Yet, again today, I saw another cool, technology that I wanted to try, yet they had no Windows Phone apps.
• It never caught on with enterprise.

I know people hear idolize Joe Belfiore, but he couldn't get the job done. Maybe during his LOA, MS will find someone who can manage to strike a deal with Verizon.

Cheap phones in developing markets will not make WP successful.

 

[Ntropy99]

Verizon, like it or not, will affect the overall success of the windows phones because of their user base. They did nothing to sell the WP7 or WP8 phones they had. Their sales people actively steered people away from the phones and their stores buried or mis-signed them. Whether this is the fault of Verizon or MS, there were limited sales and businesses don't continue with products that don't sell.
Not having the 950 models doesn't mean that Verizon won't carry other OEM models. The big issue isn't what they will sell, but not allowing BYOD on the network. That is what will affect the user base the most.
Apps are a chicken or egg debate - no apps without user base, no user base without apps. This is where MS must invest if they want Verizon to notice. The apple strategy is well past its time.

 

[pechio]

If you're referring to my post, then, yeah, I have to because you compared the United States to GB and other smaller countries. If you want equality, you would have to compare, say, Texas to GB or Arkansas to Germany. Otherwise, you should compare the US to the European Union. If you don't follow your own rules, I'll compare the US to the Asian market - as simple as that!

Arkansas population 3 million - Germany 80 million

 

[JaySeeDoubleYou]

To the OP: Not necessarily. If it does well enough on AT&T, then it could diversify. Not that it's a perfect analogy by any means, but the iPhone being initially AT&T exclusive certainly didn't stillborn what is probably the most iconic and the most prestigious phone in history.

Clearly, it's going to work very strongly against this get the phone into as many hands as possible, as quickly as possible thing, and as a Verizon user who wanted one of these phones, I'm clearly not supportive of this outcome.

But is it a definite Windows killer? No. It's a test case. It gives Windows a chance to prove itself in a confined space. Again, I don't like the decision, anymore than anyone, and I don't think it helps anybody. But the sky's not falling either. Let's watch and wait....and hope.

 

[garak0410]

As a Verizon user still holding onto his discontinued Lumia Icon, I definitely found it unfortunate that Verizon doesn't want to "play ball" and continue supporting WM10. As one of the largest carriers in the US, I think WM10 doesn't stand a chance if it can't get adoption on VZW. I hope they can make a deal, but things are looking pretty bleak at this time. The problem is, both users AND devs will have to switch to AT&T in order for WM10 to thrive and that's just wishing for a miracle.

If turning off my beloved ICON for a Note 5 is any indication, then yes, it could be DOA or at least less sales than the ICON had on Verizon. I still want a 950xl but can't switch.

 

[RumoredNow]

If turning off my beloved ICON for a Note 5 is any indication, then yes, it could be DOA or at least less sales than the ICON had on Verizon. I still want a 950xl but can't switch.

More fallacy built on facts not in evidence.



"Less sales than the ICON had on Verizon."



Which of the statistically significant models shown in World Wide Usage stats are models which Verizon carried?


I get that people like Verizon. I understand many can not switch due to coverage issues where they work and live. I know many love the grandfathered truly unlimited data. I realize VZW is the largest carrier in the US.

On the other side of the coin, many in these "Verizon is paramount" threads won't admit that some Verizon users are not as locked in as they are. There is a reticence to admit that Verizon is not the largest portion of Windows Phone users in the world, let alone the US.

The regrettable tendency to project your own personal situation (If turning off my beloved ICON for a Note 5 is any indication, then yes, it could be DOA) into a universal constant just doesn't hold up here.

For each user of Verizon that is trapped, there is another that is free to leave at any time. The amount of Windows Phone sales potentially lost does not and can not equate to the number of Verizon subscribers.


AdDuplex Windows Phone Device Statistics Report for September, 2015

 

[garak0410]

More fallacy built on facts not in evidence.



"Less sales than the ICON had on Verizon."

View attachment 115199

Which of the statistically significant models shown in World Wide Usage stats are models which Verizon carried?


I get that people like Verizon. I understand many can not switch due to coverage issues where they work and live. I know many love the grandfathered truly unlimited data. I realize VZW is the largest carrier in the US.

On the other side of the coin, many in these "Verizon is paramount" threads won't admit that some Verizon users are not as locked in as they are. There is a reticence to admit that Verizon is not the largest portion of Windows Phone users in the world, let alone the US.

The regrettable tendency to project your own personal situation (If turning off my beloved ICON for a Note 5 is any indication, then yes, it could be DOA) into a universal constant just doesn't hold up here.

For each user of Verizon that is trapped, there is another that is free to leave at any time. The amount of Windows Phone sales potentially lost does not and can not equate to the number of Verizon subscribers.


AdDuplex Windows Phone Device Statistics Report for September, 2015

I'm trapped due to work and they pay for my phone (to also be personal use too)...that is good info you reported...going to be patient and see how things turn out.

 

[dalascby]

I understand the numbers but it's not really about "existing" numbers, it's about "potential" numbers. Existing customers upgrading does not increase market share, this is about attracting new customers. Without having the availability of Verizon's huge customer base to target could in fact mean that these phones are DOA in America.

Microsoft must exhaust all options toward getting those unlocked phones "Verizon capable".

 

[afripino]

^this. those figures you posted just means a continually dwindling marketshare and more app developers jumping ship. MS is essentially staying the course but with less options now. think about it...less OEMS, less carriers, less users. you DO want the MS user base to grow, right?

 

[RumoredNow]

I understand the numbers but it's not really about "existing" numbers, it's about "potential" numbers. Existing customers upgrading does not increase market share, this is about attracting new customers. Without having the availability of Verizon's huge customer base to target could in fact mean that these phones are DOA in America.

Microsoft must exhaust all options toward getting those unlocked phones "Verizon capable".

Except that potential has repeatedly been squandered away at the carrier end.

How would this round differ? Why would the situation suddenly do an about face and get Verizon pushing Windows Phone out the door? How much of a loss should Microsoft continue to take by catering devices to meet the spec demands of unprofitable and unproductive partnerships? How unpalatable has Verizon made Windows Phone look that they can't sell their fair share of devices?

Everyone applauds iPhone and the Nexus program for not capitulating to carrier exclusivities and customizations.

We should applaud Microsoft for standing strong. The phones need to be sold on their terms or not at all. Repeating the same failed model does no good and only wastes effort, resources, and money. It further degrades the appeal and dilutes the product. The last Lumia on Vzw was the almost played out 735. Before that it was the exclusive 929 and the 928 before that. The conditions set by Verizon to even carry a phone almost guarantee slow sales.

I don't know what conditions Verizon tried to insist upon to get the 950 or 950 XL in their stores, but apparently it was too much at odds with Microsoft's vision for moving forward. My guess: the 735 was given to them during a negotiating process to keep the doors open, but Vzw kept insisting on an exclusive. There is too much on the line for Microsoft not to be able to offer the 950 or 950 XL freely to other carriers in the US. That's where the numbers come in. If Vzw would only carry a phone as a exclusive the stats show how that is the smallest chance for exposure, growth and success.

 

[Detfan100]

Sprint won't activate them.

 

[afripino]

^^so basically, MS doesn't negotiate very well and can't get the job done to get more phones into more hands. got it. so much for "mobile first".

 

[RumoredNow]

^^so basically, MS doesn't negotiate very well and can't get the job done to get more phones into more hands. got it. so much for "mobile first".

Not what I'm saying at all...

 

[Polychrome]

From what I read, VZW are the ones actually blocking the 950/xl. Not the other way around. Just goes to show what kind of carrier they are. As far as was mentioned, the 950/xl actually do have the cdma radio, but verison will not allow them to be hooked up to the network. I would go elsewhere. Who are they to tell me what I can and cannot use. If the technology is there, Who are they to tell me what phone I can bring to their network. That's a load of crap right there.

This is the FUD I keep referring to. Some users started gossiping about this in a thread or two, then WPCentral (and frankly, I'm more disappointed in them than I am in Microsoft right now) repeated it on their main page as if it were fact, stated it was a "fight", and just blew everything to heck and back.

Here's the truth of the matter: Verizon's billing system requires two things to activate a line: A SIM card and an IMEI number. The IMEI is only used for determining what features your phone is eligible for. If they don't recognize the IMEI, they can't activate a line using that IMEI. This is what people are wrongfully interpreting and reporting as being a "block". The answer? Use an IMEI with compatible features to what you want to activate, then stick the SIM into the phone you actually want to use. That's it. That's all that's required. There's no blocks. There's no funny business. The phone just needs to support the proper CDMA and LTE bands. This is why there are an increasing number of phones that work on Verizon without actually coming from them.

Verizon doesn't block IMEIs with one exception: If you report a device stolen. Remember how I said IMEIs are used for provisioning? If an IMEI is reported lost/stolen, and you stick your SIM into it, your line will suspend itself. Meaning if a device was blocked, you'd know it as soon as you tried your SIM back in your original device. An individual user must request a device be added to lost/stolen. It doesn't happen on a massive scale, and nobody who tried their VZW sim in the tester phones at Microsoft stores said anything about their lines getting suspended. If it's simply a device Verizon doesn't have loaded in their device database, then two things happen: It either works or it doesn't. And it all depends on what that device's individual radio supports.

I've seen a recent increase in foreign Android phones and other non VZW devices on accounts. And if a phone that works on Verizon's network becomes popular enough, they'll add it to the IMEI database for convenience sake (Verizon doesn't officially support any device they didn't provide), but not having an IMEI in the system doesn't "block" anything. It simply means you have to stick the SIM back into an actual VZW device for plan changes or the like.

The 950 isn't going to work on Verizon, mainly because CDMA is either blocked in the firmware or the radio doesn't exist on the chip. If Microsoft really wanted the device to work on VZW regardless of what the carrier had to say, they would have made like Google and just made the device CDMA compatible on their own. They didn't, so whatever the case, this was their call. Also keep in mind that VZW is not the only CDMA carrier in the world, and that in Asian countries, hybrid CDMA networks and CDMA sim cards have been in use longer than VZW and Sprint have used them. The truth in this case is simply too boring for clickbait.

 

[85daytona]

Thank god someone else has some sense. Come on the whole story sounds like bull. We "disabled" the bands because of Verizon...No you don't disable bands. That cost more money than just leaving them on...If the story was legit it would have gone - we left out the radio to save cost. That is the only plausible excuse and that is not what was done. Something more happened and Microsoft is keeping quiet because they know it's nonsense.

Microsoft trololololled their loyal fans like me who specifically switched to Verizon to get the Icon (the current highest end device in the US that has full functionality and is a reasonable size, that's right they screwed everyone by not having the Lumia 930 work on ATT). Now I have a good low cost plan and I am not switching back to ATT just to get TroloLolLoled again by Microsoft. Droid Turbo 2 here I come, thanks for wasting my money Microsoft.

I can't support a platform that doesn't even take itself serious ...Microsoft has already shown they have the power to update their phones through the insider preview...don't you think they could just let us choose what build we want to upgrade to...bam problem solved.

Search for this story "If the Lumia 950 and 950 XL won’t work on Verizon, that’s Microsoft’s fault". Other people are waking up too...Microsoft is letting it's fans fight a battle that they themselves didn't even fight.

 

[Steve Adams]

Well, in all seriousness, I could give two rats ***'es, I am in Canada and the 950 works on the major networks in Canada. I am good!

 

[a5cent]

The 950 isn't going to work on Verizon, mainly because CDMA is either blocked in the firmware or the radio doesn't exist on the chip. If Microsoft really wanted the device to work on VZW regardless of what the carrier had to say, they would have made like Google and just made the device CDMA compatible on their own. They didn't, so whatever the case, this was their call.

You're simply using a technically more accurate definition of what it means to "block" a device.

From the average consumer's point of view, if you have two lines on Verizon, and you add a third for your newly purchased L950, which Verizon then refuses to activate, then many would argue that equates to Verizon blocking their device.

I completely agree that yours is the far better definition of the word, and I'll be sticking to it myself from here on out, but it's not hard to see how many might use it differently.

 

[11B1P]

The problem I see with Polychrome's answer is that the imei is on the device, correct? How is a customer supposed to "use an imei" as though they just get an imei from out of thin air?

Example, how would I use the imei from my Icon on a 950?

 

[85daytona]

You don't use anything from the icon. I have read post of people taking their Verizon sim card out of their real Verizon phone and putting it in a non Verizon device and it just works. You just can't bring the non Verizon device to Verizon and ask them to start a plan...so basically by blocking the radio bands purposefully Microsoft screwed over their Icon owners. Anyone on Verizon doesn't need to start a new plan because they are freaking already on Verizon because of the Icon...

 

[85daytona]

Well, in all seriousness, I could give two rats ***'es, I am in Canada and the 950 works on the major networks in Canada. I am good!

Do you even have a Windows phone currently? Furthermore what are you doing in the Verizon section? All the "whining" is legitimately coming from loyal windows platform supporters who have bought every flagship that was available in the united states and are getting screwed without a Verizon phone. You can only switch carrier's so many times before enough is enough.