NO 24-hour heart rate monitoring on the Band

[SteveVII]

Actually scratch that. Haven't used it for a while and just noticed the light was off. I'm wondering if any sudden movement activates it. If it is smart about determining changes in activity, I'm ok with it. I guess it makes sense that my heart rate isn't going to spike for a long period of time while sitting and doing nothing .

 

[crelim]

Actually scratch that. Haven't used it for a while and just noticed the light was off. I'm wondering if any sudden movement activates it. If it is smart about determining changes in activity, I'm ok with it. I guess it makes sense that my heart rate isn't going to spike for a long period of time while sitting and doing nothing .

This. Exactly. The band is quite smart and will start saving battery when it sees that you are not moving much. It has at its disposal many other sensors to make this decision.

You're basically saying I am out of line for expecting a 100 in 1 product to do anything well because why should it? It's 100 products IN ONE!!! It really just comes down to false marketing. Microsoft is marketing the "continuous" heart rate monitoring feature IDENTICALLY to the way Mio advertises their continuous heart rate feature (albeit the ONLY feature).

Pj737: Like I said, you are not wrong in interpreting and expecting "continuous" to be many or hundreds of times per hour. The crux of the issue is by definition what you are saying is also continuous and what others are saying is continuous as well. As an example see the attachment below. I would describe it as: "MSFT Band monitored my sleep and heart rate continuously last night". I don;t know why I would not call it continuous?



Every digital signal in this world is by definition not continuous because it is sampled at some rate from a truly continuous analog signal. But given an application and requirement, even 100,000 data points per second could be sparse (for example when analyzing a car crash test) versus 1 data pt./sec could be continuous and more than necessary for something like monitoring with a sensor when its dark outside. In both cases, the sensing is unbroken and periodic but depends which is considered "continuous". We are simply splitting hairs and talking semantics.

MSFT probably deemed that by making clever use of many of the other sensors they can continuously and intelligently sample heart rate to build a whole-day trend while also providing all the additional functionality. Trust me, MSFT has a very deep research presence and they employee some of the top people in health, fitness, bioengineering, and other sciences. Just as an example, MSFT is researching HIV vaccinations and are building cloud machine learning algorithms for curing cancer all the while they study how HR signals could be used for preventive healthcare. Google for "Microsoft Research" and see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. The HR on this device is backed by science, not just consumer product wannabe.

 

[Lobwedgephil]

View attachment 86111

Google "DCRAINMAKER MIO ALPHA" and you will see a review on a now nearly 2-year old product. He has achieved up to 30 hours of nonstop continuous HR data collection. I attached a graph of what continuous heart rate monitoring looks like. That is a run. Notice the granularity of the data points? This is very critical for anyone into fitness and training.

Also above you'll see a snapshot of my recent jog. That is only 5 minutes of data. Again, the Mio will record real time every second HR data for up to 30 hours on one charge.

View attachment 86109

I bought my dad a MIO Alpha for Fathers Day to keep track of his heart rate after some health issues, it lasts about 2 hours. Had them replace due to battery life, other one was the same.

 

[SteveVII]

I honestly understand both sides of this viewpoint. I am a bit disappointed that the sensor isn't always on. I see the value in this as you can really get granular in comparing activity (and potentially calories) day over day. At the same time, I'm curious to see how the band does over the next couple weeks. Maybe it's better at determining calorie burn due to the combination of sensors. I will say, they have to show more granular data for the HR data. I should be able to see all the data for every time the band is activated and takes my heart rate... it has to save all that data, right?

 

[crelim]

Correct, it very likely does save all that data. Unfortunately as of yet I do not know if we can export it.

 

[bitwise]

Since you're all Americans here, isn't it a trend in your country to just file a lawsuit whenever something doesn't go right? Imagine how much you can get from MS by misleading you.

 

[pj737]

Well I'll have to admit this is what I was expecting posting to a Microsoft forum. LOL. If I made this post in a platform-agnostic, fitness-based forum, I'd have 99 out of 100 agreeing with me. Here, well... not so much. The bias is deafening.

 

[pj737]

Since you're all Americans here, isn't it a trend in your country to just file a lawsuit whenever something doesn't go right? Imagine how much you can get from MS by misleading you.

Nah, that's just what people outside looking in think. We Americans do appreciate our freedom of speech though. You're welcome to practice those same rights here on this forum! Grumble away! Without grumblers like myself, technology would never improve.

 

[crelim]

Well I'll have to admit this is what I was expecting posting to a Microsoft forum. LOL. If I made this post in a platform-agnostic, fitness-based forum, I'd have 99 out of 100 agreeing with me. Here, well... not so much. The bias is deafening.

How were any of this discussion biased? Band aside, all we discussed is what it means for a sensor stream to be continuous and to the best of my understanding the conclusion is you are right and so are others. For you continuous means X per second, while for others it may mean Y per second. Its scenario specific preference and the argument over this X, Y is endless and irrelevant because separate products in both category exist!

The data is simply not once per hour. That is incorrect. It is more than that (but displayed as average) and It has nothing to do with a micorsoft forum, but rather observable and repeatable facts.

Honestly I have no intentions to convince you to buy this device. I do not think you should as it does not meet your requirements and you would not be happy. For instance, some of my hiking and tracking activities I still use my Fenix 2 + strap just because this band would not do what I want in those situations and it may never will.

 

[smoledman]

Did Microsoft claim the band is collecting 86,400 data points per 24 hours? Why do you need such a large sample size?

 

[smoledman]

I honestly understand both sides of this viewpoint. I am a bit disappointed that the sensor isn't always on. I see the value in this as you can really get granular in comparing activity (and potentially calories) day over day. At the same time, I'm curious to see how the band does over the next couple weeks. Maybe it's better at determining calorie burn due to the combination of sensors. I will say, they have to show more granular data for the HR data. I should be able to see all the data for every time the band is activated and takes my heart rate... it has to save all that data, right?

Complaining about the sensor is getting involved where the customer doesn't belong. Is the customer in MS QA department or a PM? No, all that matters in the end is the heart-rate UX. Is the Band collecting ENOUGH data points per 24 hours to be useful? That's the only question.

 

[pj737]

Security company ad on TV-

"We will guard your home with 24-hour continuous video recording of your property. Any criminal activity will be recorded."

One day a customer of the advertised security system gets robbed. Customer calls the security company -

"Can you please pull the video from the incident last night when our home was burglarized"

Response from security company -

"We are sorry but our 24-hour continuous recording of the property only provides one image per hour. We are sorry to regret that the robbery took place outside of that time frame. Please have a nice day."

Again, the bias on this forum is profoundly deafening. :smile:

 

[pj737]

Did Microsoft claim the band is collecting 86,400 data points per 24 hours? Why do you need such a large sample size?

The fact that you think anything near one data point per hour is even remotely acceptable is actually straining my brain; I am having a very difficult time comprehending it. It's like getting MPG data from your car that only samples the acceleration and speed data during ONE MINUTE out of your one hour drive. One minute over 60 minutes means the data is completely and utterly useless. It serves absolutely zero value because it doesn't give you any idea of your driving habits during the other 59 minutes; driving habits (like peoples' activity through the day) are not static. How is this helpful determining caloric burn? It's not. How is it helpful in determining what your peak heart rate was for the day - it's not. The granularity is so low for the metric its sampling that the data provided is purely misleading.

So why bother having this feature to begin with? Microsoft should state that it will monitor heart rate WHEN EXERCISING... and not claim 24 HOUR CONTINUOUS MONITORING. It's really that simple. Don't bs your customers. It's not good business practice.

 

[satrus08]

Well I'll have to admit this is what I was expecting posting to a Microsoft forum. LOL. If I made this post in a platform-agnostic, fitness-based forum, I'd have 99 out of 100 agreeing with me. Here, well... not so much. The bias is deafening.

Lol i don't know how your are calling the responses biased. I saw no bias anywhere. They are merely stating the facts, seems like you don't even read their responses.
As someone stated, ms' definition of continuous is also correct. When one person replied saying you can't expect the same from a device that does 10 things, you didn't even try to understand what he meant. Obviously he was talking about battery life.

You are being closed minded just because the band is not what you expected.

At first I agreed with you, that is somewhat misleading. But then as a user reminded me. Digitally, it is a correct statement.

I also think however, that they should not market it as continuous monitoring.
Your closed mindedness is blinding
:smile:

 

[astondg]

Security company ad on TV-

"We will guard your home with 24-hour continuous video recording of your property. Any criminal activity will be recorded."

That last part is important, they are promising that any criminal activity will be recorded. 1. MS does NOT promise that all HR data will be recorded. and 2. Maybe the security company uses motion detectors to only turn on the cameras when needed (e.g. MS supplementing HR with other sensors) and can still meet their obligation of any criminal activity in which case I'm 100% ok with that.

What is this bias? No one here has said that this device can do what you want, in fact many have suggested that you shouldn't buy it. But that aside this device goes well beyond many of the existing devices in what it can do and for many of us it will provide all the data we need.

Also for someone complaining of bias you have really run with the once per hour HR sampling despite many people showing that it is collecting data more than that.

 

[Yazen]

1 measurement per hour is useless. What about the other 59:59 in the hour? Misleading.
Microsoft made it seem like the Band was taking samples at frequent intervals, like 1x1s, 1x5s, 1x10s, etc. Not 1x3600s

Hopefully there is a manual option to check, mine has yet to arrive.

EDIT: Does anyone actually know how many times it records in an hour? :sweaty:
EDIT2: I am guessing not .. Sure they have fancy algorithms, this thread is confusing me.

 

[pj737]

That last part is important, they are promising that any criminal activity will be recorded. 1. MS does NOT promise that all HR data will be recorded. and 2. Maybe the security company uses motion detectors to only turn on the cameras when needed (e.g. MS supplementing HR with other sensors) and can still meet their obligation of any criminal activity in which case I'm 100% ok with that.

What is this bias? No one here has said that this device can do what you want, in fact many have suggested that you shouldn't buy it. But that aside this device goes well beyond many of the existing devices in what it can do and for many of us it will provide all the data we need.

Also for someone complaining of bias you have really run with the once per hour HR sampling despite many people showing that it is collecting data more than that.

I think this is the first time I've been punked on a forum.

 

[Yazen]

I think this is the first time I've been punked on a forum.

That last part is important, they are promising that any criminal activity will be recorded. 1. MS does NOT promise that all HR data will be recorded. and 2. Maybe the security company uses motion detectors to only turn on the cameras when needed (e.g. MS supplementing HR with other sensors) and can still meet their obligation of any criminal activity in which case I'm 100% ok with that.

What is this bias? No one here has said that this device can do what you want, in fact many have suggested that you shouldn't buy it. But that aside this device goes well beyond many of the existing devices in what it can do and for many of us it will provide all the data we need.


Also for someone complaining of bias you have really run with the once per hour HR sampling despite many people showing that it is collecting data more than that.

LOL, this ^. Have not seen a business that would accept a single frame per hour....... Trying to make a point, or do you leave your home with the doors open?

EDIT: Yes you are being punked, also known as being flamed lol.

 

[Chris_Kez]

How is this ( 1 measure per hour) helpful determining caloric burn? It's not. How is it helpful in determining what your peak heart rate was for the day - it's not.

I assume the band can start taking additional samples in response to movement or other sensor input, and that any estimate of caloric burn also incorporates data from multiple sensors.
Assuming the sample rate increases during activity it does seem likely that it would capture your peak HR (or close enough to matter for most users in most applications). I would certainly want a very high sample rate if I was on an operating table in a hospital; I'd be less stringent during any of the long stretches when in sitting at my desk.
I understand your consternation over the use of the word "continuous", but there is a legitimate debate to be had about what that means in this context. To essentially dismiss this product as useless would be just as semantically negligent as you accuse Microsoft of being.

 

[astondg]

LOL, this ^. Have not seen a business that would accept a single frame per hour....... Trying to make a point, or do you leave your home with the doors open?

EDIT: Yes you are being punked, also known as being flamed lol.

No, you aren't. I'm trying to have a discussion.

It's been shown by people using the band that more than 1 reading an hour is being taken. Certainly many more during 'activity' but even multiple reasons when at rest. There's another thread with a sleep graph that showed HR with multiple variations through an hour. Also taking a BPM reading requires more than a single heart beat. So your argument about 1 frame or 1 MPG data point sample are incorrect and I assumed that you were exaggerating for effect. I took your premise & tried to bring the response back to something closer to what I see as the actual situation here.

Here's a more likely MPG scenario: While you're speed is constant the car only takes 1 throttle position & MAF reading per 20min (because it's 'cheap' to read speed but 'expensive' to read throttle position & MAF) but as soon as your speed fluctuates it starts taking TP & MAF readings ever 30sec. Now you are getting quite an accurate MPG reading but on a long highway journey it might only be calculating MPG every 20min.