Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread, have any of you experienced it?

[Windows Central Question]

Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

I've had my band for several days, the only issues that has jumped out is the heart monitor. It doesn't change much, even during heavy exercise. I thought I might have a bum band, but it sounds like others are seeing the same thing.

 

[astondg]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

I got a large Band as I'm in Australia & it was my only option at the time but it's about 0.5-1cm too big. The Band is by no means loose, but it's about the same fit as I would wear my wrist watch. Anyway I find that when the sensor is against my skin (either with the way my wrist is positioned or if I hold it there) then the HR reading is very accurate but if the sensor lifts away a little, so that I can clearly see the green light, then the readings increase by anywhere from 10 to 30BPM more than they should. I think if I had a medium size and could wear it just a little tighter then it would be very accurate for me.

Even with the looser fit I still get a resting HR overnight of between 41 & 46 BPM which fits very well with the 45 BPM I got hooked up to a proper medical monitor at the hospital a month ago.

I don't know how tightly everyone wears their Band, and they have to feel comfortable, but it might be something to consider for those with issues.

 

[Madame_X]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

I've had my Band for two weeks. The first week, everything seemed relatively accurate and my calorie count was falling into what I would expect (somewhat in line with my old Bodybugg). Since the last firmware update, I'm seeing my heart rate soar at certain times of the day and it seems to be affecting the calorie burn. I've gone from burning 2000-2500 calories on a fairly sedentary day to over 4000 most days. Yesterday, it told me I burned 6300 calories! Not even reasonably possible, when the only exercise I had was walking my dogs for less than a mile. I barely hit 5000 steps for the day.

I have a medium band and wear it as tight as I can get it on my wrist, to the point where it's almost uncomfortable. It's really not doing me much good if it can't even get in the ballpark of how many calories I'm actually burning.

 

[gadgetrants]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

My 2 cents: I recently hung out with some guys who work in a wearables start-up, and we discussed the challenges of skin-based HR sensors. I came away with a few strong impressions:

- HR sensing by measuring blood flow is really, really hard
- HR sensing by measuring blood flow can only estimate HR, at best
- existing methods -- pretty much all of them -- provide only rough approximations

I have to admit when I first saw the Band, my heart skipped a beat or two (pun not intended) and I naturally assumed it provided accurate (read: medical grade) biometric output. Certainly, all the promotional info encourages that perception. But my expectations came back down to reality after a few days of using it. I realized, of course, that it's a young technology and we're early adopters. It's definitely OK by me if it's a few more iterations before we can strap something on our wrist and get precise, realtime physiological data.

In the meantime, something else I learned is that the algorithm REALLY matters. It may turn out that IR methods will get kicked to the curb and eventually replaced (or augmented) by other methods. For example, check out this very cool demonstration of "pulse by motion":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhZXDgG9oSk

​-Matt

 

[teemulehtinen]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

That is way strange. dear Madame. Something is wrong. It shouldn't be so much off the reality. I am physically active (3-5 times/week exercising) man weighing 95kg. My non-training day burn (deskwork, occasional outside meeting or lunch, shopping etc. with some 5,000-7,000 steps) is according to the band about 2,300-2,600 calories. On training days it goes from 3,00 to 3,400. The highest burn ever was last week when I woke up at 6am, drove to the mountains, skied for six hours out of which hiking up the mountain for about an hour with boots and skis on and I got it to about 4,500 calories burnt.

I noticed today at the gym that the band had real trouble getting the heartbeat locked when I wore it under the wrist. I changed it to the normal watch mode half way the workout and it immediately improved tracking. I haven't noticed this before.

 

[Madame_X]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

After having it register over 9,000 calories burned today (don't I wish?), I finally called support. They had me do a special boot that disconnects it from the battery termporarily. Low and behold, it seems to be accurately reflecting my heart rate again. They set up a follow up call for a few days from now to see if it's still working.

I will say, support for the Band so far is substantially better than I've experienced with Microsoft on some other issues.

 

[DroidUser42]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

They had me do a special boot that disconnects it from the battery termporarily.

Do tell.

 

[pil71]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

how did you do the special boot?

 

[anonim]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

After having it register over 9,000 calories burned today (don't I wish?), I finally called support. They had me do a special boot that disconnects it from the battery termporarily. Low and behold, it seems to be accurately reflecting my heart rate again. They set up a follow up call for a few days from now to see if it's still working.

I will say, support for the Band so far is substantially better than I've experienced with Microsoft on some other issues.

Can you let us in on the secret method of resetting the band?

 

[cj-m]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Just a further addition - this is dcrainmakers response to the FitBit Surge HR Optical sensor, which could be applied to the Band as well.

Ray Maker replied
January 21, 2015 at 6:12 am#99
It mostly comes down to two factors: The sensor itself, and the algorithms behind it.
If you look at the Scosche, it uses a sensor from Valencell. That company - all they do - is work on optical HR sensors for other companies (such as Scosche). That means that they've taken years to perfect it - both the sensors themselves as well as the algorithms behind it for exercise.
Meanwhile, companies like Samsung and many others, go and buy off the shelf sensors from companies you've likely never heard of. Though there are some bigger players, for example Texas Instruments. These sensors usually have very little R&D behind them, and are mostly designed for non-moving scenarios. Over the last 8-12 months, we've seen a flurry of entrants in the OEM market with these sensors. They in turn also tend to have almost no algorithms included with them - it's often raw signal (such as TI's case). So it's up to a given company (i.e a Fitbit) to sort that out.
Now I don't know the arrangements that Fitbit has on their sensor, nor who made it (or whether that company supplied or assisted with the algorithms). I do know it's not Valencell or Mio/Philips (which are the main two players with reputable sensors for sport use).

 

[mkg3]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

.....It mostly comes down to two factors: The sensor itself, and the algorithms behind it.

.........These sensors usually have very little R&D behind them, and are mostly designed for non-moving scenarios. Over the last 8-12 months, we've seen a flurry of entrants in the OEM market with these sensors. They in turn also tend to have almost no algorithms included with them - it's often raw signal (such as TI's case). So it's up to a given company (i.e a Fitbit) to sort that out................I do know it's not Valencell or Mio/Philips (which are the main two players with reputable sensors for sport use).

Clearly, it comes down to sensors and algorithm. That is given.

The rest of the response from Ray Maker is just an assertion without substantiation. Its would be a mistake, I believe, to say its anything more than his opinion - nothing more.

Does anyone really think that MS who spent 3 years developing Band spent no R&D into algorithms or finding appropriate sensor vendor? The inconsistent sensing may be due to simply where the state of the art is in optical sensors - which is a different issue than lack of R&D directly.

While there may be some that slap HW together, most recognized companies are engaged in much work (read R&D) in wearables across the industry (smell of money). And FDA has device regulations to control what is being claimed additionally...

 

[anon(5327127)]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

People are people and, as they're people, they do people type things. ALL of us will have the band on differing clasp settings. Some tight, some loose and, as I'm sure that you're aware, your wrist can be different sizes depending on the time of day and what you're doing. This will obviously lead to different results for different people.

​Point made

 

[gadgetrants]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Does anyone really think that MS who spent 3 years developing Band spent no R&D into algorithms or finding appropriate sensor vendor? The inconsistent sensing may be due to simply where the state of the art is in optical sensors - which is a different issue than lack of R&D directly.

People are people and, as they're people, they do people type things. ALL of us will have the band on differing clasp settings. Some tight, some loose and, as I'm sure that you're aware, your wrist can be different sizes depending on the time of day and what you're doing. This will obviously lead to different results for different people.

As a quick follow-up to my earlier comment above regarding IR and bloodflow as the channel for reading HR, just wanted to note (based on my caveman level of knowledge) that the main challenge is this:

The sensor shoots a beam of light into your wrist. Based on (1) the precise time of the beam origin, and (2) the delay in time at reflection and (3) pattern of light reflected back, the system then attempts to estimate whether your vein/artery/whatever is filled (i.e., your heart just pumped a beat...remembering of course that there is a delay between reading at the wrist and at the heart itself). It then repeats this detection process until a second pulse is measured ("filled" vein -> "empty" vein -> "filled" vein), and then it has a single-cycle estimate of HR. As we all know, a single-pulse cycle is a poor estimate, so additional cycles are better.

Here is where things get tricky, and I can only speculate: apparently the IR recording is akin to a photograph. The problem is that if the sensor moves a few millimeters between readings, it's like shifting the camera to a new location and taking a second photo. Figuring out where the veins are and comparing them to the last reading is not trivial, and in fact some higher-end sensors do various tricks like (1) measure drift of the sensor over the skin surface to eliminate the interference, or (2) measure from two or more locations to "triangulate" the vein.

tl;dr I'm reasonably convinced that the Band needs to be pretty tight to read HR. Anecdotal reports here are largely consistent with this.

​-Matt

 

[Madame_X]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Can you let us in on the secret method of resetting the band?

Hold the power and action button down for 20-30 seconds, ignoring any messages that come up, until it vibrates and the screen goes blank. You will need to engage the charger to power it back on.

 

[DroidUser42]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Hold the power and action button down for 20-30 seconds, ignoring any messages that come up, until it vibrates and the screen goes blank. You will need to engage the charger to power it back on.

Ah, I think that puts the unit back to "fresh out of the box".

 

[jropelato1]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Mine seems to work great

 

[Madame_X]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Ah, I think that puts the unit back to "fresh out of the box".

No, it doesn't do a factory reset. Your data is still there. When you power it back on, the Band just thinks that the battery has died and asks you to confirm date and time.

Sadly, even after resetting, mine seems to have a glitch with the heart rate creeping up and up. Every day I don't reset it, my daily calorie consumption is higher and higher, to ridiculously inaccurate levels. I have a follow up call scheduled with support tonight--I'm hoping that maybe they can help me flash the operating system.

I really hate to think it might be a hardware issue since I know that getting a replacement would take a while.

 

[mkg3]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

..........Every day I don't reset it, my daily calorie consumption is higher and higher, to ridiculously inaccurate levels........

Perhaps you shouldn't worry so much and burn more calories by increasing your heart rate; hence burning more calories...:grin:

Or if you really mean consumption is up, skip the 9th snack of the day!!

Sorry, it was too easy...

 

[DroidUser42]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

The problem is that if the sensor moves a few millimeters between readings, it's like shifting the camera to a new location and taking a second photo.

"A few millimeters" is quite a bit of movement. I doubt if mine is slipping one millimeter.

I'm still of the theory that motion alters the blood flow enough to confuse things.

 

[Madame_X]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

Perhaps you shouldn't worry so much and burn more calories by increasing your heart rate; hence burning more calories...:grin:

Or if you really mean consumption is up, skip the 9th snack of the day!!

Sorry, it was too easy...

You got me. :sweaty:

Sadly, Microsoft thinks I have a faulty sensor so they're doing a swap. So, I will be without my Band for the next week or so.

 

[gadgetrants]

Re: Glad to hear the inaccurate heart rate is widespread

"A few millimeters" is quite a bit of movement. I doubt if mine is slipping one millimeter.

I'm still of the theory that motion alters the blood flow enough to confuse things.

I wear it *tighter* when I run, but not enough to make my hand turn blue. :amaze: As I've noted elsewhere, at least in my case when I hold my hand steady while running, the darn sensors responsible for gauging pace (i.e., accelerometer and gyrometer, I suppose) think I've stopped and my estimated pace slows to a crawl (though my little feets are still plenty busy). What's weird is that if I hold my arm steady while walking in the default mode, steps reliably register!

Oh, I should probably mention that's *indoor* running, which the Band surprisingly gauges reasonably well even with GPS turned off. Perhaps running outside with a steady arm wouldn't "fool" the Band like it does indoors.

-Matt