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05-24-2009 04:48 AM
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  1. dc_in_sf's Avatar
    Anyone know where to get a spare power brick/wall wart for a Redfly from? I've tried emailing Celio support but not heard anything back.
    09-10-2008 05:52 PM
  2. ckj's Avatar
    We're still working on an accessories website that should include extra wall chargers, car chargers and cases. I'll PM you with some options on a wall charger for now.
    09-10-2008 06:28 PM
  3. EdFrmBrighthand's Avatar
    Good to hear. I'd be interested in a spare brick that's considerably smaller than the stock one.
    -
    09-20-2008 01:23 PM
  4. tedpoe's Avatar
    Would you please provide an update on additional or alternative power adapters. It would be nice to have a second one for my office.

    Thanks,
    Ted
    10-01-2008 07:03 AM
  5. anon159272's Avatar
    What would be nice: fold-in prongs (for travel) or a even a laptop-style design with an AC power cord that plugs into the adapter instead of a wall wart, allowing for use with power strips, etc.
    10-01-2008 10:05 AM
  6. cmtomlin's Avatar
    I travel a lot and also need a smaller power option. As the previous poster, I would like a folding prong in a much smaller footprint.

    Another option would be to work with Gomadic to offer a tip that works with their smart tip power offerings. I have several USB power adapters that range from 500mA to 2A. I carry the 2A to power all of my small electronics with my laptop being the only item that has a different brick. It would be great if I could add the Redfly to the 2A's supported electronics by having a USB adapter plug.

    I really need something soon. The power brick size prevents me using the product while on the road on most of my trips.
    10-02-2008 05:07 AM
  7. Me2's Avatar
    I'd add to the request for a new power brick - but as a replacement, not a spare, because the one supplied is really badly designed and barely fit for purpose, especially if using outside the US.

    1. The main PSU is bulky enough without the cheap add-on UK and EU adapters. These don't grip the PSU at all and it because the PSU is big and top-heavy it falls out of the adapter at the slightest sneeze. I've had to tape the whole thing up which just looks a mess and hardly professional, or safe. I expect such a cheap and nasty bodge from Chinese charger sellers on eBay, but not from something which is aimed at the high end professional market. I note none of the adapters are CE marked so probably not legal to sell in the EU anyway?

    2. There's trouble at the other end as well. Because the Redfly DC power socket is recessed behind the case, instead of being flush, the metal part of the plug isn't long enough to sit firmly home. So the slightest jolt or twist makes it lose contact - it only has to come out about 1mm before doing so.

    Consequently, either end of the power chain is likely drop out unnoticed while you sleep, instead of charging up your Redfly and phone ready for the day ahead. Hardly ideal for something that's designed to be used on the road.

    The cheap and nasty PSU really lets down an otherwise excellent product. Please can you stop cutting corners and provide a proper, compact, safe "world" PSU with clip-on face plates, or mini-brick with interchangeable mains tails, like you get with Palm, HTC, Apple and all other decent brands. And fix the DC plug too!
    Last edited by Me2; 10-03-2008 at 06:54 AM.
    10-03-2008 06:47 AM
  8. ckj's Avatar
    Me2,
    You’re right and we know there’s room for improvement on the PSU and UK/EU adapters. The power requirements to charge REDFLY’s 8-hour battery limited our options to heavier PSUs and the weight of the PSU on the end of a UK/EU adapter does cause problems. It most certainly is something we’re aware of and working on. This kind of feedback is great and I make sure both positive and negative comments are passed up the chain of command.
    10-08-2008 12:04 PM
  9. MAgentieri's Avatar
    On a related note, can we get a usb/universal power connector for the next version of this?
    10-09-2008 10:32 AM
  10. ckj's Avatar
    Yeah, a USB power connector would solve a lot of problems. I’m not sure if there’s one that can handle charging the 4,500 mAh battery though that’s inside the REDFLY (I’ll check with one of our engineers and see).

    BTW, any day now, extra wall chargers and car chargers will be available on the celiocorp.com web store.
    10-11-2008 01:38 AM
  11. Ebag333's Avatar
    Yeah, a USB power connector would solve a lot of problems. Im not sure if theres one that can handle charging the 4,500 mAh battery though thats inside the REDFLY (Ill check with one of our engineers and see).

    BTW, any day now, extra wall chargers and car chargers will be available on the celiocorp.com web store.
    Could you provide a 1A one?

    I know it'd be only 1/4th the normal charge, but it should still "trickle charge" it, yes?
    10-11-2008 10:49 AM
  12. Me2's Avatar
    The power requirements to charge REDFLYs 8-hour battery limited our options to heavier PSUs and

    the weight of the PSU on the end of a UK/EU adapter does cause problems.
    Sorry Colin, but looking at what you get with other similar devices, your argument that the PSU design was dictated by the Redfly's power requirements just doesn't stack up.

    E.g. compare the Redfly's brick with the EeePC 900 PSU (made by Delta Electronics, who also supply chargers for many of HTC's mobile devices):-

    Output:
    Redfly 9V@2.5A (22.5W); Asus 12V@3.0A (36W)
    Size:
    Redfly 85x55x40mm (187cc); Asus 85x35x25mm (74cc)
    Weight:
    Redfly 190/240g (without/with UK adapter); Asus 150/260g (without/with UK mains lead)

    So the Asus gives 60% more power than your TMC behemoth, in a package with 2.5 times less volume, and, excluding trimmings, less weight!

    The 900's PSU also uses a standard "Figure 8" connector for its input, so mains leads are widely available for all regions - with no bagful of unsightly, unstable and unsafe adaptors required.

    Or, at the more budget end of the market, take a look at the Asus EeePC 701 PSU made by PI Electronics (194g ALL IN, 9.5V@2.5A (23.75W)). Hardly bigger that a mobile phone charger plug-top, yet complete with folding USA pins and secure clip-on worldwide adapters, and still exceeding the Redfly's power requirements.

    Not forgetting both Asus PSUs are designed to simultaneously charge and power a full-blown laptop with CPUs, memory and 5200-6600Mah batteries, not just a 4400mAh "dumb terminal".

    Even if we ignore the inferior technical spec of the TMC compared to competing products, the cheap and nasty physical design simply isn't fit for purpose for a travel-anywhere mobile device.

    I also note you have conveniently ignored my point about the universally-criticised DC connector.

    All we have now is a power supply that won't stay plugged into its source, with an output connector that won't stay connected to its load, in a clumsy design that looks like it came out of hobbyist's junkbox - especially when you have to wrap one end in tape, and attack the other end with a modelling knife, to make the damned thing work.

    Clearly then, not meeting any sensible person's basic quality or usability standards. How on earth did that get through product acceptance testing?

    I see you give no clues as to the type of devices being made available through accessory store. Are any of these issues going to be addressed?

    More importantly, will there be any discount available for those who are looking for a fit-for-purpose replacement to the appallingly designed original?
    10-13-2008 10:15 AM
  13. Ebag333's Avatar
    Not forgetting both Asus PSUs are designed to simultaneously charge and power a full-blown laptop with CPUs, memory and 5200-6600Mah batteries, not just a 4400mAh "dumb terminal".

    Even if we ignore the inferior technical spec of the TMC compared to competing products, the cheap and nasty physical design simply isn't fit for purpose for a travel-anywhere mobile device.

    I also note you have conveniently ignored my point about the universally-criticised DC connector.

    All we have now is a power supply that won't stay plugged into its source, with an output connector that won't stay connected to its load, in a clumsy design that looks like it came out of hobbyist's junkbox - especially when you have to wrap one end in tape, and attack the other end with a modelling knife, to make the damned thing work.
    First off, the DC connector isn't "universally-criticised" [sic].

    My only "complaint" about it is that it fits TOO well into the Redfly, meaning that it takes a bit more force than I'd like to get it in. That being said it has loosened up considerably since when I got it, and I expect it to do so a bit more as I use it. Which means that unlike some devices (such as my Treo 700wx) the power cable won't simply fall out with the slightest touch.

    If that's a complaint, then it's a complaint I wish I was making against more devices.

    The wall wart fits just fine into any of my plugs in my house. I would like for it to be a bit more compact, and to have folding tines, but considering I only charge it maybe two or three times a week, I'm not carrying it around with me. (Unlike the power adapter for my 800w...well, I don't carry that around either, but I do have power adapters scattered everywhere I go: home, car, office, etc.)


    Now, as far as comparing different batteries for different devices, that's not really a fair comparison.

    Laptops have different requirements than the Redfly "dumb terminal" will.

    The different voltages/amps/etc delivered to the battery will be a requirement of the battery type used, and how it's setup. Cost is a big factor here.

    Celio may have chosen to go with a battery that lasts longer, but can't accept as high of a charge in order to keep costs down. I don't know if that's the choice they made or not, but similar ones are made all the time in different markets. There are phones with much higher capacities than others, but have less talk time because of other factors (the way they are designed). Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges, they may both be fruit, but they are not the same.

    Unfortunately there is nothing really to compare the Redfly to. The closest I've (almost) seen was Palm's Foleo, but that had (if I recall correctly) less battery life, was more complex, not as compact...and...well...doesn't exist.

    If you want to start comparing batteries, then do a full comparison.

    Or perhaps you forgot to mention that the eeePC only has a couple of hours of battery life (1 to 3, depending on usage) while the Redfly has 8 hours?

    I'll put up with a slightly less than perfect DC adapter for that.
    10-13-2008 02:30 PM
  14. Me2's Avatar
    First off, the DC connector isn't "universally-criticised" [sic].

    My only "complaint" about it is that it fits TOO well into the Redfly, meaning that it takes a bit more force than I'd like to get it in. That being said it has loosened up considerably since when I got it, and I expect it to do so a bit more as I use it. Which means that unlike some devices (such as my Treo 700wx) the power cable won't simply fall out with the slightest touch.

    If that's a complaint, then it's a complaint I wish I was making against more devices.

    The wall wart fits just fine into any of my plugs in my house. I would like for it to be a bit more compact, and to have folding tines, but considering I only charge it maybe two or three times a week, I'm not carrying it around with me. (Unlike the power adapter for my 800w...well, I don't carry that around either, but I do have power adapters scattered everywhere I go: home, car, office, etc.)
    OK, it might work for you, but as you say, you are a light user who doesn't need to use the charger outside the home. But the "last push" for mine to make contact is only about 1-2mm, and rotating the plug even slightly will make it disconnect. Even when pushed as far it can go, it doesn't have enough grip on the centre and outer contacts to prevent it working loose as soon as the wire is knocked or moved. Whereas the Asus (and other properly designed appliances I have with similar plugs) have a good 5mm or so of travel before electrical contact, and physical grip, is lost. There are plenty of other people complaining of the same issue, so just because yours works, doesn't mean that problem doesn't exist!

    Simple fact: the TMC plug is designed to mate with a flush-mounted DC power socket. Celio have mounted it behind a 3-4mm thick bezel. So unless you trim off some of plastic from the plug, it's impossible for the TMC pluc to be pushed fully home to the back of the socket, to give a physically sound and electrically tolerant contact. This a basic design flaw that should have been picked up before release.

    Now, as far as comparing different batteries for different devices, that's not really a fair comparison.

    Laptops have different requirements than the Redfly "dumb terminal" will.
    Of course they have. Even if we restrict comparison to the low-power EeePCs used as examples, they all require MORE power than the Redfly, as they need to charge a BIGGER battery and EXTRA power-hungry components like CPUs, RAM, and mass storage, NONE of which are used in the Redfly. Don't forget this magical, power-hungry "8 hour" battery in the Redfly is only rated at 4400mAh - that's the SMALLEST available for EeePCs (which range from 4400 to 10400 mAh, all using the same, compact PSUs). So of course it is fair to quote battery sizes. A bigger battery means the device is likely to require a higher charge current from flat. So they are there to demonstrate that the "smaller" power supplies can cope with much bigger loads than the TMC brick, and that, compared to even budget "web books", the Redfly's power requirements are not huge at all.

    So why do Asus and other OEMs bundle PSUs which have higher wattage ratings than the Redfly's, yet are more compact, reliable, practical, and simply better designed all round? Maybe because they have given some thought to their reliability, the needs of the end user, their product image, and backed that up by proper testing?

    The different voltages/amps/etc delivered to the battery will be a requirement of the battery type used, and how it's setup. Cost is a big factor here.
    I agree with the first part, although not sure what you mean by "setup" - to the PSU manufacturer that is immaterial. For safety reasons, because of their highly explosive nature, ANY device using Lithium battery packs must have charging control handled by the device's own power management and the internal controller built into the battery - NOT by the external PSU. So "setup" of the battery (whatever that means) doesn't come into it. The impression left is that cost as the only factor Celio have applied.

    Celio may have chosen to go with a battery that lasts longer, but can't accept as high of a charge in order to keep costs down. I don't know if that's the choice they made or not, but similar ones are made all the time in different markets. There are phones with much higher capacities than others, but have less talk time because of other factors (the way they are designed). Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges, they may both be fruit, but they are not the same.

    Unfortunately there is nothing really to compare the Redfly to. The closest I've (almost) seen was Palm's Foleo, but that had (if I recall correctly) less battery life, was more complex, not as compact...and...well...doesn't exist.

    If you want to start comparing batteries, then do a full comparison.

    Or perhaps you forgot to mention that the eeePC only has a couple of hours of battery life (1 to 3, depending on usage) while the Redfly has 8 hours?

    I'll put up with a slightly less than perfect DC adapter for that.
    All fruit-talk which is irrelevant to the issue in hand. We're not comparing devices or talk time, just the power units. Apart from regulation which we can assume is moot, the only factors to consider on an OEM PSU are the output voltage and sustainable maximum current, and, it would appear, for everyone else but Celio, size and practicality. Like I said above, the PSU has NO control or intelligence in charging the battery - that's handled by the device and battery itself.

    So it matters not a jot to this discussion or the PSU manufacturer how the laptop uses the power available, how much talk time a phone has, or the how long the battery lasts once charged. Electrically, all that matters is that the PSU can safely deliver the maximum current the device requires in its most extreme state while keeping the voltage regulated within acceptable limits, and having some protection against overcurrent or over-voltage if the device should develop a fault. The bit that Celio forgot was to also consider a physical design which was convenient, reliable and practical for end users' needs.

    My choice of the EeePC PSU for comparison has nothing to do with whether the EeePC itself is a better or worse device, but was purely to refute Celio's claim that they had no choice but to use the unwieldy TMC brick for the Redfly, because of the high power requirements to charge its 4400mAh battery.

    That is, of course, nonsense, given that, purely as an example I had to hand, Asus have managed to source TWO power supplies, from different manufacturers, both of which far exceed the Redfly's power requirements, yet come in smaller, lighter form factors, which ironically turn out to be far more robust and reliable.

    Whether that means Asus have put much more thought than Celio into their product's research and design, and carried out real quality and user acceptance testing, rather than simply throwing the cheapest supply into the box "that will do", I will leave for you to decide.

    Either way, the end result is the same. The Redfly needs a fully charged battery to keep my phone going all day. I bought it as much for the advertised power-reserve functionality as for the terminal. The TMC-junk PSU, with it's awkwardness to carry, and propensity for disconnecting input and output at will, is the weak link in that chain that often means charging sessions are aborted, leaving me with a dead phone and PDA, and the Redfly as a useless lump of plastic. No serious user, corporate or otherwise, is going to tolerate that kind of inconvenience for long.
    Last edited by Me2; 10-13-2008 at 06:51 PM.
    10-13-2008 04:43 PM
  15. kodiakdjd's Avatar
    I also have noticed that the connector on the back is very loose fitting.

    Is there a way to fix this? By putting on a new plug?

    If it gets too loose and stops charging, it is covered under the warranty?

    I think the warranty is only 90 days, and i am afraid the connection will definitely get worse over time.
    10-14-2008 06:48 AM
  16. Me2's Avatar
    I also have noticed that the connector on the back is very loose fitting.

    Is there a way to fix this? By putting on a new plug?

    If it gets too loose and stops charging, it is covered under the warranty?

    I think the warranty is only 90 days, and i am afraid the connection will definitely get worse over time.
    One workaround is to CAREFULLY trim 2mm off the front edge of the plastic plug moulding so that it exposes more of the metal pin, to allow the plug to go in further and make better contact (physical and electrical). This is actually quite easy to do by resting the plug on hard surface and scoring round with a modelling knife, as the plastic is quite soft. Don't be tempted to take more off, as that will significantly weaken the plug so that the pin is likely to come adrift with use and break the wires inside. Obviously that will void your warranty should the plug break. Not the kind of bodge one should be having to do on a $400 device though, is it?
    10-14-2008 08:09 AM
  17. anon159272's Avatar
    I have the same issue with the power plug barely making contact. I think I will try the shaving idea, though I think just 1mm or so would do it for me.

    Also, what's with the ferrite core at the end...I'm assuming it's deemed necessary by its presence, but I've never seen that on a laptop power supply before. Given its placement I'm assuming it chokes RF coming out of the RedFly...maybe part of the FCC clearance?
    10-14-2008 10:47 AM
  18. c1oudrs's Avatar
    That ferrite core thingie does come off/snaps. I snapped mine off, repositioned it at the bottom where its more out of the way and snapped it back on. That's assuming it does much of anything at all, which I couldn't really tell if it did. (Other than get hung up on stuff and annoy).
    10-15-2008 04:13 AM
  19. kodiakdjd's Avatar
    I guess I need to sharpen up my X-acto knife to perform the surgery!
    10-15-2008 07:10 AM
  20. kodiakdjd's Avatar
    On a related issue, does anyone know if the internal batteries in the RedFly are serviceable and/or replaceable?

    It looks like a sealed unit.

    If not, what is the life expectancy for the batteries under heavy use?
    10-15-2008 07:32 AM
  21. Ebag333's Avatar
    I've disassembled my Redfly. (Shhhh!)

    The battery would be extremely easy to swap out. I do however have a beta unit and not a final one.

    I disassembled it because the screws holding the bracket that attaches the monitor to the body were coming loose. A tiny bit of locktite now holds them in place.

    I disassembled it a second time because in those same brackets is an "insert" that holds everything together nice and tight. The inserts shift as you open/close it a tiny amount and eventually come loose.

    It's actually quite easy to do.
    10-15-2008 10:32 AM
  22. MAgentieri's Avatar
    Pics.
    Please?
    10-15-2008 10:48 AM
  23. Ebag333's Avatar
    Pics.
    Please?
    Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

    http://picasaweb.google.com/ebagola/Redfly#
    10-15-2008 12:18 PM
  24. sixftunda's Avatar
    Kudos on the pics. My Redfly is a prototype also and just started yesterday doing a small popping sound when opening the screen. I knew they widened the area around the USB ports for the final model but I am glad to hear they also beefed up the hinging area also.
    10-15-2008 04:56 PM
  25. Ebag333's Avatar
    Kudos on the pics. My Redfly is a prototype also and just started yesterday doing a small popping sound when opening the screen. I knew they widened the area around the USB ports for the final model but I am glad to hear they also beefed up the hinging area also.
    You probably need to tighten down the same screws. Very easy to access, just remove the 4 screws off the back.
    10-15-2008 05:53 PM
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