10-15-2013 10:42 PM
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  1. realwarder's Avatar
    I'm tired of saying the same thing to everyone.

    When you own an Apple device, Apple takes the responsibility of doing tech support for those devices. So if you have an iPhone bought on contract with Vodafone, you can go to Apple if it breaks rather than having to go to a Voda store. Unless MS does this, there is zero chance for carrier-less software updates.

    As to your second point, the nature of the interface between the OS and the radio hardware means that there's always a chance of breaking something.

    And I'm tired (your words) of your argument. Carriers require Apple to validate their modem firmware operates correctly on their networks just the same as they do Nokia.

    Having a 'store' and providing 'tech support' has nothing to do with carrier certification.

    As to my 'second point'. The world works through definition of ICDs and APIs. Windows Phone and iOS updates are extremely unlikely to cause network compatibility issues as the phones all have entire cellular modems dedicated to managing the network connection and the network is mostly protected from the OS, at least from a certification perspective.

    By your argument a laptop with a GSM card in it would need re-certifying when you run Windows Update. But it doesn't because there is separation between the modem and OS.

    There is no reason updates like GDR3 cannot and should not be frequently rolled out to Windows Phones.
    a5cent, James8561, haydt1 and 2 others like this.
    10-14-2013 04:05 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    There is no reason updates like GDR3 cannot and should not be frequently rolled out to Windows Phones.
    Except for the carriers not wanting to relinquish control. That is a reason too.;-)

    The idea that Apple's U.S. retail presence is what allows them to release their iOS updates world wide on the same day (including countries with zero Apple retail presence) is complete hogwash. You are right.
    James8561 likes this.
    10-14-2013 04:32 PM
  3. tgp's Avatar
    With the new Preview program, MSFT is allowing enthusiasts to get Software early and without cost (App studio).. I am registered developer and have a couple of apps, but I am happy that ANYONE who just signs up for App studio can get GDR3 plus future versions of the OS without waiting for Carriers to approve the updates. Amazing things from MSFT
    I agree. It would be great to get the carriers, and even the OEMs, out of the picture. Apple always has done it that way. Rumors are that Google is possibly working towards that kind of a system starting with Android 4.4 (KitKat).
    10-14-2013 05:01 PM
  4. agd87's Avatar
    Warranty issues aside. Can't Microsoft release their OS update like they have done with GDR3 preview (through the app store) and let carriers release their firmware at a later date once it's all been tested. Can firmware be installed separately?

    I don't think users will mind waiting for a firmware update if they get an OS update on a set release date with everyone else.
    10-14-2013 05:44 PM
  5. drbanks's Avatar
    according to the MS blogs I read, nothing's stopping separate firmware updates.
    10-14-2013 05:56 PM
  6. jobinthomas's Avatar
    Awesome, this is how they should do it. Seperate firmware updates from OS updates. That way MS can just do testing for OS features and carriers/OEM do testing for firmware

    Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk
    10-14-2013 06:37 PM
  7. haydt1's Avatar
    I think the problem is that if your PC stops working, you're not gonna go to your ISP to get it fixed. Plus, the carriers have to worry about phone radios, not just data (WiFi)
    Phone radio is no different than WiFi or the regular ethernet NIC in your PC/Tablet or whatever. It's not magic, It's a chip that's already certified to work. I doubt the Cellular chip drivers are altered much if at all in any of these updates. Microsoft has done a damn good job with their update patches the last few years in terms of testing before they are released. I trust them (and Nokia) a lot more to push an update to me than ATT or verizon who's core business is not operating systems and applications.
    10-15-2013 08:35 AM
  8. jaimeastin's Avatar
    They said it might void it, to be sure its best to check with your OEM and carrier.

    Still it makes no sense for a software update to void a hardware warranty. It's as if I loose my Laptop warranty because I choose to reinstall Windows.
    just a scare tactic. Really it is that it is not fully tested and things might not work or break... Don't complain...

    Mobile device hardware and software are very related and unlike PC hardware and software, not really user service friendly. Almost all problems with mobiles have to be felt with from the top whereas PC you can easily find software, drivers, etc.

    Anyhow, just a scare tactic to keep most users who don't understand what a beta tester or software is and may or may not do.
    10-15-2013 08:59 AM
  9. jaimeastin's Avatar
    Phone radio is no different than WiFi or the regular ethernet NIC in your PC/Tablet or whatever. It's not magic, It's a chip that's already certified to work. I doubt the Cellular chip drivers are altered much if at all in any of these updates. Microsoft has done a damn good job with their update patches the last few years in terms of testing before they are released. I trust them (and Nokia) a lot more to push an update to me than ATT or verizon who's core business is not operating systems and applications.
    true, but most mobile devices aren't designed to be serviced in any way (software / hardware) by the user.

    In the future, this will be cha gong for the most part. It will still be semi locked to control a manufacturer operating standard, but PC like design will come as this is the next step for a PC.

    Microsoft and others have to be a little weary about making things too open and user serviceable. Too easy and people who only know enough to be dangerous will do it, hate it, give the company a bad rap, move one, etc all while never taking responsibility and acknowledging they where problem. Look at the PC market... People have the money to buy a computer, but almost all users have little to no skills, no desire for training or to read a book, etc... This why mobile device are great for consumers. No thinking involved. PCs were too much computer for consumers... There was just no other choice... Now there is and the PC is going back to being used for medium to heavy duty work...

    Anywho,
    10-15-2013 09:09 AM
  10. ag1986's Avatar
    That's a BS reason. I constantly read on these boards about how smartphones are mini computers. Well OK then, so ATT blocking an update for as long as they did is no different than your ISP blocking windows updates or any other software update for your PC until they "tested" it. I doubt anyone would put up with that and there is far more chance something will go wrong with a PC update than a phone update.
    yeah, but if your PC breaks you're going to go to Lenovo/HP or whoever, not to the OS manufacturer.
    10-15-2013 09:31 AM
  11. ag1986's Avatar
    And I'm tired (your words) of your argument. Carriers require Apple to validate their modem firmware operates correctly on their networks just the same as they do Nokia.

    Having a 'store' and providing 'tech support' has nothing to do with carrier certification.

    As to my 'second point'. The world works through definition of ICDs and APIs. Windows Phone and iOS updates are extremely unlikely to cause network compatibility issues as the phones all have entire cellular modems dedicated to managing the network connection and the network is mostly protected from the OS, at least from a certification perspective.

    By your argument a laptop with a GSM card in it would need re-certifying when you run Windows Update. But it doesn't because there is separation between the modem and OS.

    There is no reason updates like GDR3 cannot and should not be frequently rolled out to Windows Phones.
    Sorry, but it has everything to do with it. Right now, in the US and other contract markets, if a non-Apple phone bought from a carrier breaks, it's the carrier's responsibility to fix or replace the handset. This applies to any OEM and OS - Samsung, LG, HTC, Nokia, whoever. Most of these OEMs do not even have stores or support lines in these regions. So the carriers tell the OEMs and OS companies "we sell it, we're controlling what gets on it". When and IF MS and Nokia tell the carriers, we will replace the phone and handle support for our handsets REGARDLESS of what network the device is on, carrier-less updates will become a reality. I mean, look at the current state of the 1020 market, for example. I was in SFO recently and wanted one, but apparently you can't buy one in the USA that is not carrier-locked out of the box. These devices come out of the factory already destined for a carrier.

    On an Apple device, I can take it to any Apple store and they will take care of me, no matter where the device was bought (note that I detest iPhones and the iPad seems pointless for my personal usage).

    From a certification perspective this is true, but there are many other reasons why someone would want support, which would cost the network to provide. Besides, OS updates have caused radio issues plenty of times in the past, on all platforms.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    10-15-2013 09:40 AM
  12. ag1986's Avatar
    Phone radio is no different than WiFi or the regular ethernet NIC in your PC/Tablet or whatever. It's not magic, It's a chip that's already certified to work. I doubt the Cellular chip drivers are altered much if at all in any of these updates. Microsoft has done a damn good job with their update patches the last few years in terms of testing before they are released. I trust them (and Nokia) a lot more to push an update to me than ATT or verizon who's core business is not operating systems and applications.
    Drivers aren't altered, their interface with the higher level OS and how that interacts with all layers above is however changed often.
    10-15-2013 09:42 AM
  13. ag1986's Avatar
    Except for the carriers not wanting to relinquish control. That is a reason too.;-)

    The idea that Apple's U.S. retail presence is what allows them to release their iOS updates world wide on the same day (including countries with zero Apple retail presence) is complete hogwash. You are right.
    Countries with zero or low Apple retail presence (India, for example) are also usually countries where the contract system is not present. Therefore, your argument is void - the carriers have no control over the phone, they just provide service and a SIM card. Although, there are Apple stores in India and they have repaired/replaced iDevices bought elsewhere even though the warranty explicitly said 'invalid in India, Pakistan etc...

    edit: to clarify, I am not saying that Verizon or whoever NEED to test the phone before releasing updates, i.e. I am not saying that the update will cause problems.

    I'm saying that IF and WHEN there is a problem during/after the update (e.g. the spinning-gears issues with updating to GDR2 - it usually just takes time but any novice user would panic and call his provider, which costs the provider time and money. THAT is where Apple wins, they are willing to handle these issues themselves and nobody else is.
    Last edited by ag1986; 10-15-2013 at 09:47 AM. Reason: clarification
    10-15-2013 09:44 AM
  14. DavidinCT's Avatar
    I do like the fact that we finally get to join in on the claimed "early adopter" program that Microsoft said about when WIndows Phone 8 was announced (years ago it seems). As the update added some features and possably performance gains, day to day stuff is still the same for the most part (wish we got the smaller tiles on the 928).

    Still the fact of the matter, this a OS upgrade, not a phone upgrade, What I mean, to fix BUGs that is to each phone (Nokia, HTC, Samsung, etc), you will have to wait for a carrier update or firmware to fix those issues. This update will not fix each phones issues...

    And I'm tired (your words) of your argument. Carriers require Apple to validate their modem firmware operates correctly on their networks just the same as they do Nokia.

    Having a 'store' and providing 'tech support' has nothing to do with carrier certification.

    As to my 'second point'. The world works through definition of ICDs and APIs. Windows Phone and iOS updates are extremely unlikely to cause network compatibility issues as the phones all have entire cellular modems dedicated to managing the network connection and the network is mostly protected from the OS, at least from a certification perspective.

    By your argument a laptop with a GSM card in it would need re-certifying when you run Windows Update. But it doesn't because there is separation between the modem and OS.

    There is no reason updates like GDR3 cannot and should not be frequently rolled out to Windows Phones.
    The difference here between apple and Microsoft is, Apple will give the carrier the update in advance and tell they they HAVE to do be done on a date for release, it might be 2 months, it might be 2 weeks anyway about it, it will be released on X day.

    Microsoft does not have the market share to be able to do this, Not at this point or is not demanding it like Apple is. This is why GDR2 came out to some carriers but, not others, just like all WP8 updates (do you remember waiting for 7.8 from your carrier ? The HTC Trophy still does not officaly have it as I understand)
    10-15-2013 09:55 AM
  15. HeyCori's Avatar
    I don't know if Microsoft is really screwing over the carriers (specifically AT&T) as the method to install GDR3 is rather obscure for the average consumer. Most consumers aren't tech savvy enough to know about a free developer program and will probably just wait until the official release. In that sense the carriers still win. However, this is an excellent opportunity for those of us with even a shred of knowledge about navigating the internet. We've been getting hamstrung by carriers (AT&T) since Windows Phone 7 first launched. Finally, three years later, we have a program where we can bypass the BS and immediately get the update. Hopefully this satisfies both consumers and carriers as they are no longer "burdened" with testing a beta. And in the future, I hope MS release all their updates through their free developer program. Carriers treat their customers like dirt and hold back updates like ransom. It's foolish and doesn't build the sort of customer loyalty that every company should be striving for. The rest of the world has already shown us that updates shouldn't take months. And in fact, if carriers allowed more frequent updates then those rare bugs that do occur wouldn't be such a big deal because manufacturers could quickly release an update. But alas, carriers (AT&T) would rather hamstring us then help us.
    stmav likes this.
    10-15-2013 12:03 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Countries with zero or low Apple retail presence (India, for example) are also usually countries where the contract system is not present. Therefore, your argument is void.
    My argument would be void, if your point were at all true. The Netherlands, Switzerland and Austria are just some of the countries with low Apple retail presence, yet in all those countries, most smartphones are sold on contract! In all those countries, iPhone users typically rely on their carrier to provide support, yet regardless, all of them receive their updates on the same day as everyone else. In Switzerland, Apple even owns roughly 50% of the smartphone market share, so that is nothing at all like India.

    I work for a carrier and I'm telling you one more time... your theory explaining why Apple can release updates world wide, to all devices, on the same day, is wrong. It may sound plausible, but it's wrong.
    10-15-2013 07:50 PM
  17. Jas00555's Avatar
    I don't know if Microsoft is really screwing over the carriers (specifically AT&T) as the method to install GDR3 is rather obscure for the average consumer. Most consumers aren't tech savvy enough to know about a free developer program and will probably just wait until the official release. In that sense the carriers still win. However, this is an excellent opportunity for those of us with even a shred of knowledge about navigating the internet. We've been getting hamstrung by carriers (AT&T) since Windows Phone 7 first launched. Finally, three years later, we have a program where we can bypass the BS and immediately get the update. Hopefully this satisfies both consumers and carriers as they are no longer "burdened" with testing a beta. And in the future, I hope MS release all their updates through their free developer program. Carriers treat their customers like dirt and hold back updates like ransom. It's foolish and doesn't build the sort of customer loyalty that every company should be striving for. The rest of the world has already shown us that updates shouldn't take months. And in fact, if carriers allowed more frequent updates then those rare bugs that do occur wouldn't be such a big deal because manufacturers could quickly release an update. But alas, carriers (AT&T) would rather hamstring us then help us.
    I agree. Microsoft definitely isn't screwing over the carrier, BUT based on the very low requirements (10 min and an internet connection) to actually download the updates, its clear that they want things to change.

    No, I don't think AT&T was the thing that pushed them over the edge. That's silly. The US makes up very little of their phone market, plus there are other people that still don't have gdr 2.

    I think the big thing that MS wants to change is being able to send out minor updates like this to fix problems (for example, tweaks to Xbox music) without carriers having to test out the entire OS.
    10-15-2013 08:21 PM
  18. Jnbs's Avatar
    I agree. Microsoft definitely isn't screwing over the carrier, BUT based on the very low requirements (10 min and an internet connection) to actually download the updates, its clear that they want things to change.

    No, I don't think AT&T was the thing that pushed them over the edge. That's silly. The US makes up very little of their phone market, plus there are other people that still don't have gdr 2.

    I think the big thing that MS wants to change is being able to send out minor updates like this to fix problems (for example, tweaks to Xbox music) without carriers having to test out the entire OS.
    I sort of agree to a certain degree.. But the whole point is that MSFT is allowing customers to bypass the wait with a simple method.. I understand that the "average Joe" will not know about this, but also they will not complain on the forums.. Now the advantage is that ANYONE here on WPCentral who has a GDR2 device doesn't have an excuse. Complainers (not all of them) are long gone now!!
    10-15-2013 08:39 PM
  19. SwimSwim's Avatar
    just a scare tactic. Really it is that it is not fully tested and things might not work or break... Don't complain...

    Mobile device hardware and software are very related and unlike PC hardware and software, not really user service friendly. Almost all problems with mobiles have to be felt with from the top whereas PC you can easily find software, drivers, etc.

    Anyhow, just a scare tactic to keep most users who don't understand what a beta tester or software is and may or may not do.
    And for good reason, so people who are denied repairs can't complain, and to scare off people who ought not be divulging in beta testing (I'm glad it's stable, but data loss is a constant concern when partaking in a beta test, no matter how open or stable [but the same could be said for official software, I suppose]).
    10-15-2013 10:42 PM
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