10-24-2016 01:53 AM
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  1. VHMP01's Avatar
    I have made that choice. I've given up Android tablet and iPads alike. These new ones offer nothing over the older ones that would compel me to reconsider that choice. So, I now have both a Surface 3 and a Surface Pro 3. Many companies are programming to "mobile" friendly formatted web sites in addition to any offering they may offer on the App side of things. This means that if there is an app that is presently specific to iPad or Android, it's a non issue because the Surfaces are full on PCs and can access full feature or mobile optimized versions of the actual websites. If you primarily use Apps, however, and those platforms hold exclusives presently, then I think your decision is made for you. If you are a technical professional and work remote, Surface Pro 3 are unbeatable in terms of mobility. I also quite love the W10 implementation of Remote Desktop client.
    You could also run Android apps under Windows! Never the other way around!
    10-02-2015 10:56 PM
  2. VHMP01's Avatar
    You're right, the original Android in 2008 was designed for small smartphones. However, starting with Android 4.0 in 2011 Android was designed to work on a entire range of device sizes and form factors with one OS. Prior to that Android 3.0 was designed to be a tablet operating system. I'm not really sure where we're all going with the keyboard stuff, but I do firmly believe that Windows has never made a good tablet experience, whereas (obviously in my opinion) Android has been leading in the tablet space for quite awhile and everyone knows about the iPad which is beloved by its users as well. There's nothing wrong with them all occupying separate spaces.
    Still, Android was improved for 10" tablets, here we're talking about again streching it to 12"+. So I guess we disagree on this 'Pro' Tablet form factor.
    10-02-2015 10:59 PM
  3. Aquila's Avatar
    Disagree completelly... I could see your point if, and only if, limmited tablets like iOS and Android were less expensive... But what you are saying, is that if someone needs a car to go to the supermarket and few visits to their grandchildren, they should get a limmited and less specs car, but still pay Premium for it. Really bad advice on my view!
    Android tablets are less expensive; Almost across the board. Prior to the Pixel C, the best tablet was the NVIDIA Shield, which was $299. The next best was the Nexus 9, starting at $399. Compared to the Surface Pro starting at $800. The difference is because the Surface is a laptop and the Shield is a tablet. Comparing Apple prices doesn't really make sense though, because they overcharge on just about everything IMO. There is a good case to be made on their better spec'd macbooks compared to comparable ultrabooks, but in mobile their prices are over the top given that there are much better devices for much less.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-02-2015 10:59 PM
  4. Aquila's Avatar
    Still, Android was improved for 10" tablets, here we're talking about again streching it to 12"+. So I guess we disagree on this 'Pro' Tablet form factor.
    I'm not sure where you're getting either number. The Pixel C is a 10.2" tablet and isn't referred to as a "pro" anything. Android was improved for ANY form factor and that's just the 2011 update. In the ensuing years the developer tools have been vastly improved. However, the first Nexus tablet (first tablet that really matters, it took tablets from straight up garbage to a pleasurable content consuming experience) was a 7" tablet and since then Google has put out a 10", another 7" and a 9" Nexus tablet, all of which were the standard 16:9 resolution - this being a different line they picked the 10.2" size for the Pixel with the different aspect ratio and they're showing off some different design opportunities.
    10-02-2015 11:03 PM
  5. Aquila's Avatar
    Disagree completelly... I could see your point if, and only if, limmited tablets like iOS and Android were less expensive... But what you are saying, is that if someone needs a car to go to the supermarket and few visits to their grandchildren, they should get a limmited and less specs car, but still pay Premium for it. Really bad advice on my view!
    I don't understand the analogy. In this example we're talking about two things that are more akin to motorcycles than SUV's if you're saying the Surface Pro is a Hummer or something. Toys that can still be useful, but they're basically toys.

    Or in case analogies don't work here, two tablets that are freaking amazing at being tablets versus a laptop that is a pretty damned good laptop. None are very good at being the things that they are not.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-02-2015 11:06 PM
  6. Aquila's Avatar
    Anyways, it's been fun everyone. Have fun storming the castle!
    10-02-2015 11:14 PM
  7. tgp's Avatar
    Disagree completelly... I could see your point if, and only if, limmited tablets like iOS and Android were less expensive... But what you are saying, is that if someone needs a car to go to the supermarket and few visits to their grandchildren, they should get a limmited and less specs car, but still pay Premium for it. Really bad advice on my view!
    OK, I'll humor you and we'll say that the Android tablet and iPad are limited and have less specs, but cost the same. From what I've seen, even if a Windows tablet has more capabilities, their users do not tend to use the added capabilities. In the real world, what is actually done with a Windows tablet could usually be done with an iPad or Android. And because iOS and Android are designed for mobile, it could often be done easier.

    Windows is not designed for mobile. It is designed for desktop, with some mobile elements integrated. Overall, it tends to be a worse experience on a tablet form factor than using an OS designed from the ground up for small screens. I believe that is at least part of the reason why Windows tablets often are not utilized to their full potential; it is too painful. Another reason could be that the specs of a tablet are often lower than a PC, which is what the OS is designed for. This reduces the performance. If you do start to put them through their paces, they heat up and you need to back off.

    I already know you do not agree with a single word I wrote here, but this is my conclusion from what I see from our customers, and even with me and my colleagues.
    Laura Knotek and Ron-F like this.
    10-02-2015 11:31 PM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Android tablets are less expensive; Almost across the board. Prior to the Pixel C, the best tablet was the NVIDIA Shield, which was $299. The next best was the Nexus 9, starting at $399. Compared to the Surface Pro starting at $800. The difference is because the Surface is a laptop and the Shield is a tablet. Comparing Apple prices doesn't really make sense though, because they overcharge on just about everything IMO. There is a good case to be made on their better spec'd macbooks compared to comparable ultrabooks, but in mobile their prices are over the top given that there are much better devices for much less.
    The Surface Pro 4 should be the device that includes a free keyboard, since desktop Windows works best with a keyboard.

    The keyboard is included with the Pixel C, but it is an added feature that isn't necessary to get the best use of the device.

    If Windows tablets included WordFlow, like Windows Phones, then they would be more usable without physical keyboards.
    10-02-2015 11:33 PM
  9. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Windows is not designed for mobile. It is designed for desktop, with some mobile elements integrated. Overall, it tends to be a worse experience on a tablet form factor than using an OS designed from the ground up for small screens. I believe that is at least part of the reason why Windows tablets often are not utilized to their full potential; it is too painful.
    That was exactly my experience. Just give me WordFlow on a Windows tablet, and it would be immensely more usable.
    tgp likes this.
    10-02-2015 11:36 PM
  10. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I have all three, multiples of actually. I have 2 surface 3's on order, I have 2 asus vivotab RTs, an acer iconia 210, le pan mini, and an ipad 2. The surfaces will be our main devices. We can do everything on them, have a tablet for reading magazine etc on flights, trips etc, can do normal stuff like internet etc, can dock at our desk in our home office for doing photo editing etc. the android tablets were for being used in our adventure rigs as navigation/vehicle monitoring/general usage. The ipad is for our son who has autism, he loves the available apps and watching movies and videos. If I had to choose only one, it would be the surface hands down.
    Aquila and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-03-2015 04:23 AM
  11. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    The Pixel has the specs. But its ugly. That is an issue I have with Google their products aren't much to look at.
    10-03-2015 07:47 AM
  12. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Ladies and gentlemen, please keep discussion productive. This thread is about the devices and nothing to do with the different arenas that comprise the Mobile Nations. Let's keep it on topic! Personal attacks, insults, taking threads off topic and other disruptive posting behaviors are not acceptable. If you do not like a post, please behave like an adult and move on, or if you feel it violates the forum rules, please report it. At no point should members be calling each other out in posts. Thanks.
    I don't know, I feel some people here aren't quite adults yet! Haha kidding, I agree with you. Productive debate is great but when it gets crazy it's just silly. We have to stick to the rules and stay cool.
    10-03-2015 10:04 AM
  13. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    I'd love to use the iPad Pro as a Frisbee, haha. A very, very, expensive Frisbee. Running a mobile operating system (sigh). Anyways Surface line all the way but I'd love to have the Pixel C just to use a tablet and play games and such. Nothing compares to the Surface line on productivity but the Pixel C looks like it'll be great for media consumption.
    10-03-2015 10:05 AM
  14. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    For me it's gonna have to be the Surface. I'm planning to load Windows 10 Pro on my tablet and then slam Visual Studio on the beast. I have the Dell Venue 11 Pro. Has an i3 in it. Powerful tablet which I can use in synergy with my desktop for programming. I have a mind of creating and I use my tablet to create as well as consume. Most of my consumption is games though, notably FFXIV. I have a gaming desktop and laptop for that.
    10-03-2015 10:55 AM
  15. AaronMark017's Avatar
    i think it depends on whether you are willing to buy a toy or productive device. apple and google device have a lots of free games or apps so great for toys, but for productivity nothing is comparable to surface. but google may get edge for the pricing. and iSheeps will buy iPad (bigger screen aka pro) because I know a lot of people in the iSheep community still believe that only iPad have apps, lol !
    10-03-2015 10:59 AM
  16. WillysJeepMan's Avatar
    Too much marketing around apps, I can always visit any web page for the App's service, get more functions, then set a live tile to that web if it is really necesary, done. When you have a full OS, who cares about none existan apps is just marketing blinded!
    Typical apologist response... and wrong. There are more to apps than simply app-frontends to websites. It is those who don't understand that that are the ones who think that Windows tablets hold their own against tablets equipped with mobile OSes and have healthy ecosystems. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your opinion but to explain why your argument has no merit for those who rely on apps)

    The ability to run desktop apps on a tablet in touch-mode is a fall-back position not one that is preferred. It helps as a stop-gap for those touch-optimized apps that are missing, but it isn't conducive to desired tablet use.That paradigm was adequate in 1999-2000 (when that was all that was available). But today, it is archaic. Using desktop apps with magnified UI elements is NOT the same as Modern UI apps optimized for touch.

    Microsoft themselves understands this. This is why they NEVER advertise ANY Surface without a typecover. They know that the weak point for the Surface is using it as a tablet in touch-mode, so they avoid that to focus on the strong point... as a terrific ultrabook.

    There may be other reasons why the Surface is superior to iOS and Android tablets, but the availability of the quantity of quality touch-optimized apps isn't one of them.
    Laura Knotek, Ron-F and tgp like this.
    10-03-2015 12:06 PM
  17. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    Typical apologist response... and wrong. There are more to apps than simply app-frontends to websites. It is those who don't understand that that are the ones who think that Windows tablets hold their own against tablets equipped with mobile OSes and have healthy ecosystems. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your opinion but to explain why your argument has no merit for those who rely on apps)

    The ability to run desktop apps on a tablet in touch-mode is a fall-back position not one that is preferred. It helps as a stop-gap for those touch-optimized apps that are missing, but it isn't conducive to desired tablet use.That paradigm was adequate in 1999-2000 (when that was all that was available). But today, it is archaic. Using desktop apps with magnified UI elements is NOT the same as Modern UI apps optimized for touch.

    Microsoft themselves understands this. This is why they NEVER advertise ANY Surface without a typecover. They know that the weak point for the Surface is using it as a tablet in touch-mode, so they avoid that to focus on the strong point... as a terrific ultrabook.

    There may be other reasons why the Surface is superior to iOS and Android tablets, but the availability of the quantity of quality touch-optimized apps isn't one of them.
    On this I agree. It's why I am still furious at Microsoft for killing the Metro app for Skype. The desktop app may be more featured filled but as a touch screen user it's still a crap experience. That and desktop Skype seems to have a fit with both my touch enabled devices, crashing constantly (on the desktop I have to use an ANDROID EMULATOR in order to get a Skype that doesn't crash constantly), yet on my non touch laptop Skype works flawlessly.
    10-03-2015 12:38 PM
  18. Bloobed's Avatar
    None of the above (and actually no laptop / tablet at all for me), but iPad Pro certainly seems like the most pointless one, even though I'm sure it is still a solid device. The choice between a Surface and Pixel C comes down to one's use cases, the Pixel is the better tablet and ok for occasional text editing and such, while the Surface -line offers more use cases, but a lesser tablet experience (especially with W10).
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-03-2015 12:47 PM
  19. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    On Android this thread was closed before twenty posts. Apparently nothing productive was happening haha.
    I still don't see why Apple released the iPad Pro. It's not like Apple to release something like that. Something that seemingly doesn't have a real purpose. They did the same thing with the Apple Watch too. They just followed the "trend" except they didn't improve anything.
    10-03-2015 02:12 PM
  20. John M Beauchemin's Avatar
    Here's my two cents, since I am actually in the market for a new tablet right now and have been pondering this very decision while I wait to see what the Surface Pro 4 has to offer.

    I am an artist/animator in the video game industry. For this reason alone there is a debate because otherwise, the Surface is the obvious answer as it has the most to offer being the only one with a full-fledged operating system. Android is right out, as it has the least to offer me. The iPad Pro is very intriguing to me as their pencil tech looks really incredible. Obviously the downsides to iPadPro is iOS. An amazing pencil, yet I won't be able to run photoshop on it. Bummer.

    So it's a wait and see. If SurfacePro 4 has pen tech that's anywhere close to Apple's iPad Pro, I'm sold. If it's at least as good as Surface 3, it will be a strong internal debate for me and I'll probably have to actually put some time in on both tablets to see which one I can live with. If SurfacePro 4's pen tech is worse than Surface3, then I'll be going with iPadPro, most likely. I'll lose a lot of desired functionality, but as a sketchpad alone the iPadPro looks fantastic and as I mentioned, that feature is a strong priority for me.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-03-2015 02:25 PM
  21. ajj3085's Avatar
    Nope, not high. Are you capable of logos? If not using it, following it?

    I clearly said in my comments that the two tablets have productivity concepts as an add-on to their respective existing use. As in, you get a great TABLET that can double up in a pinch and reduce your need to go switch devices in order to handle a smart amount of business. Demoing office is pretty meaningless given that anyone with a browser can use excel, word, PowerPoint, sheets, docs, slides, etc. These things also have dedicated all's on iOS and Android anyways... I literally have all six on my work phone already. That doesn't mean I think my work phone is a laptop replacement. That functionality is to do quick things without having to run to another device. It's merely bridging the gap.

    The ability to DO stuff doesn't make for a great tablet. A great tablet experience is made by many things, most have to do with app experience. Windows is pretty terrible at the tablet experience and the other two are phenomenal at it. That's because they have completely different ways to be used on different tasks. That's not bad, and some people make more overlap than there is for most, but that is where we stand.
    Ya, i don't know what you're getting at with logos, so no.

    The ipad pro is a pretty clear ripoff of the surface pro. The fact that it fails due to running ios, which lacks any serious productivity tools, doesn't change the intention of the device, which is not as you claim a consumer device with productivity tacked on. It seems obvious that apple is hoping app makes step up to offer a more complete solution. As you say, there were already versions of Word in the ios store, so why bother demoing a full version of Word if its supposed to be light on productivity? Even adding promto the name, which MS used to delineate between consumer and business versions of the surface tablets.

    All a good tablet experience means is email, light browsing, games and entertainment. All of those things exist in the MS store, or in some cases as traditional desktop apps. All you're doing by saying surface fails as a tablet is showing you've never actually used one. The fact that the surface actually can also replace a laptop as well as function as a tablet is where it's value lies. And its why suddenly the notion of a tablet with a keyboard and trackpad is not only no longer ridiculed, its why apple and android are now incorporating them too.
    10-03-2015 02:40 PM
  22. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Ya, i don't know what you're getting at with logos, so no.

    The ipad pro is a pretty clear ripoff of the surface pro. The fact that it fails due to running ios, which lacks any serious productivity tools, doesn't change the intention of the device, which is not as you claim a consumer device with productivity tacked on. It seems obvious that apple is hoping app makes step up to offer a more complete solution. As you say, there were already versions of Word in the ios store, so why bother demoing a full version of Word if its supposed to be light on productivity? Even adding promto the name, which MS used to delineate between consumer and business versions of the surface tablets.

    All a good tablet experience means is email, light browsing, games and entertainment. All of those things exist in the MS store, or in some cases as traditional desktop apps. All you're doing by saying surface fails as a tablet is showing you've never actually used one. The fact that the surface actually can also replace a laptop as well as function as a tablet is where it's value lies. And its why suddenly the notion of a tablet with a keyboard and trackpad is not only no longer ridiculed, its why apple and android are now incorporating them too.
    The area where I see the iPad Pro being adopted is in the medical profession. My mother recently had surgery. Her doctors and nurses used iPads. There are a lot of medical apps for iOS. Using those apps on the iPad Pro while working in the hospital would be a lot easier than using the Surface Pro 3. This hospital also uses Macs, not PCs, in the doctors' offices.
    10-03-2015 02:46 PM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The iPad became ubiquitous in many professions because they were utilized as one-trick ponies. On construction sites they replaced paper plans and are used as PDF readers and for shooting emails. Not much else. In hospitals they're used for charting patients by nursing staffs, monitoring video cameras by security and monitoring life safety functions by plant engineering. One could argue that a Surface can do all those things and probably better, but who justifies the expense? I agree with Assassin Droid in that one's needs should dictate their purchase.
    920Walker and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-03-2015 04:33 PM
  24. Aquila's Avatar
    Ya, i don't know what you're getting at with logos, so no.

    The ipad pro is a pretty clear ripoff of the surface pro. The fact that it fails due to running ios, which lacks any serious productivity tools, doesn't change the intention of the device, which is not as you claim a consumer device with productivity tacked on. It seems obvious that apple is hoping app makes step up to offer a more complete solution. As you say, there were already versions of Word in the ios store, so why bother demoing a full version of Word if its supposed to be light on productivity? Even adding promto the name, which MS used to delineate between consumer and business versions of the surface tablets.

    All a good tablet experience means is email, light browsing, games and entertainment. All of those things exist in the MS store, or in some cases as traditional desktop apps. All you're doing by saying surface fails as a tablet is showing you've never actually used one. The fact that the surface actually can also replace a laptop as well as function as a tablet is where it's value lies. And its why suddenly the notion of a tablet with a keyboard and trackpad is not only no longer ridiculed, its why apple and android are now incorporating them too.
    Apple already has a productivity oriented laptop solution - it's the MacBook Pro. You think they're building two different devices to go after the same market? I have a hard time believing that anyone thinks them so stupid.

    A good tablet experience goes FAR beyond email, browsing, etc. And the Microsoft store is COMPLETELY nonsense. I really hope you don't think that people take it seriously. It is sparse, barren, overpriced and full of absolute garbage. That is the biggest thing that everyone is hoping to see changed. Let's not pretend that it already has changed. The Microsoft store is the epitome of what the public used to think about the Android Marketplace. I use Windows on 3 devices literally every day. I am well aware of what it has for strengths and as weaknesses.

    If you read my other posts, I've used Android tablets that had a keyboard and trackpad (which the Pixel doesn't) and the first time I did that was in 2012, the same year the OG surface came out. These technologies grew up together and Microsoft was attempting to challenge the iPad with it as they had almost no presence in the tablet space. As things went out, you'll recall that within a year they killed RT because it was horribad and refocused on making a touchscreen laptop experience. Now, we don't know what Windows 10 Mobile will be like for its public release - it could be awesome and that'd be great. Right now though, today, Windows has never been on a decent tablet and the software is beyond abysmal compared to the competition. On the converse side, the giant screen experience on Android is pretty bad and involves a lot of wasted space except for with Android TV. Android, right now, belongs on phones, tablets, watches, cars, etc. and ChromeOS is better for their laptop/desktop experience. It is perfectly acceptable to be a leader in one area and a follower in another.

    Recap: Great on desktop, decent to ok on laptops, sucks horribly on mobile. That's my opinion, albeit backed up by facts of Microsoft's failure so far on mobile computing. My expressing hope that Microsoft will get better as it does not mean that they did a good job in actual history. I guess I'd just be a fan of comparing laptops to laptops and tablets to tablets. The Surface is most definitely not a tablet. Or at least not a good one, if it is. It is a pretty decent laptop so let it compete where it is strong - not where it gets annihilated.
    10-03-2015 05:07 PM
  25. davidofmidnight's Avatar
    I don't get the iPad hate. The fact that millions of people use them in different industries - and that software is made for those industries - tells me that iPads are in fact productivity machines. Ideal productivity machines? Maybe, maybe not. Are Surfaces tablets ideal productivity machines? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on needs and what limitations you're willing to live with.
    Laura Knotek and Ron-F like this.
    10-03-2015 05:15 PM
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