10-08-2015 10:02 PM
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  1. ntice_521's Avatar
    What do you think they've been doing? The 520/630/640/etc phones are as cheap, or cheaper, than any android phones of equivalent quality. The thing is, selling a lot of cheap phones doesn't help the app situation, because people who buy cheap phones don't buy apps. Apple's app store revenue is actually higher than Google's despite a much smaller market share.
    JoyfullJuneBug likes this.
    10-01-2015 02:33 PM
  2. fdalbor's Avatar
    Interesting charts; if they are accurate Windows does not look so bad. I own a midrange WP and a midrange Android phone. Each with they own number etc. I use the WP about 80% of the time and fine it meets my needs quite well. But both my tablets are Android and my computer is a HP Envy 23" touch screen all in one. Right now I don't know if I will or will not buy a 950/950XL. I've gotten along just fine with the mid-range phones and am not sure I need more phone when I have high end tablets and computer. But I will take a peek at them.
    10-01-2015 02:36 PM
  3. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    They did a really good job with the Windows 10 ads. I think MS really needs to show off the start screen. I actually showed an apple employee my start screen the other day and his words were "wow that's actually pretty cool". He just knows that plain start screen that MS sticks to with all their releases. they could make ads where they flash all kinds of different start screens they can have some artists create.
    That would be one way to go about it, but they would really need to show various styles of the start screen to show how personalized it can be. I'll hold my breath and until they prove me wrong, I will expect something with just Cortana or an ad showing the same specs every other flagship phone has while some hyper brat taps his pencil and knucke-raps on a desk.
    10-01-2015 02:55 PM
  4. mikepalma's Avatar
    As a MS shareholder this is a ridiculous notion. Satya was hired to make the most for shareholders, not lose money to float a dying ecosystem.

    The solution is complex, as different international venues have different demand for hardware. But, features and apps are priority and if the universal and porting thing doesn't work, the mobile tents will be folded up. No one will switch from an iPhone to save $100 for less features and bad and missing apps.

    If mobile goes away, I will be happy with an iPhone w Cortana, Office and Outlook and Band 2 on my wrist
    10-01-2015 03:06 PM
  5. erfanjafar's Avatar
    Selling at zero profit or less means MS would remove any and all profit potential from the WP hardware market. This would make MS the scourge of the industry and draw the ire of companies who rely on smartphone profits to survive. By killing the profit potential in the WP market, MS would also turn away any OEMs currently thinking of releasing a WP device. I personally don't find engagement by other OEMs important, but many others here do.

    If MS wants other OEMs to engage, they must take the exact opposite approach, by asking well above average prices.

    I actually question whether MS is earning any money on these at all, even at $700. There is no set price at which a phone is guaranteed to make a profit, as it must first recoup the hundreds of millions MS invests in software and hardware engineering. That means the only way to make a profit is by selling high-end devices, with high margins, in large numbers... something high-end Lumias don't typically do.

    Assuming these won't sell in large numbers, it's safe to say these devices are already losing MS money at almost any price. IMHO the question is not whether MS should be prepared to lose money, but how much?

    I do think they must come in below the price of an iPhone, but expecting MS to go much lower isn't fair either.

    Either way, chasing market share is not W10M's goal. Even if it was, it would be far more reasonable to do that with low end devices.
    Agreed! But I personally want 950xl to be cheap so that I can buy it :D
    a5cent likes this.
    10-01-2015 04:30 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    Agreed! But I personally want 950xl to be cheap so that I can buy it :D
    lol. Obviously...

    I suspect that desire is one of the most influential factors for those concluding that MS should sell at or below market value. ;-)
    erfanjafar, tgp and Kjetil Stokke like this.
    10-01-2015 04:50 PM
  7. mmcpher's Avatar
    Top-end Apple Iphone 6S Plus with 128gb costs . . . . well I could buy three very nice Windows 10 Notebooks for the same $1,000.00. How much mark-up is built into the Apple? 'Reducing' the 950XL price below the Apple comparable would put it at $900.00. I would think Microsoft could cut a lot deeper before they'd be selling it at a loss. And can Microsoft come up with an answer to Apple's new mortgage payment system, where you pay nearly $50 a month just to get the phone, before being charged for its use?
    10-01-2015 04:55 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    Top-end Apple Iphone 6S Plus with 128gb costs . . . . well I could buy three very nice Windows 10 Notebooks for the same $1,000.00. How much mark-up is built into the Apple? 'Reducing' the 950XL price below the Apple comparable would put it at $900.00. I would think Microsoft could cut a lot deeper before they'd be selling it at a loss.
    As stated and explained in many of the earlier posts, MS would be selling this at a loss even at $900. They would even be selling at a loss at $1500. It really doesn't matter. They aren't making money on this. What matters is not the sales price, but sales volume, and that's where high-end lumias have always stumbled.
    Guytronic and Tien-Lin Chang like this.
    10-01-2015 05:13 PM
  9. ikissfutebol's Avatar
    I don't think $100 is enough of a carrot. Most places are still financing for 24 months. $100/24 is about $2/mo different. I hardly think someone spending $25/mo to finance a phone is going to really care about a Windows Phone at $23.

    The bigger deal is in ranges where numbers are being sold full price, no financing (low-mid range). If someone can get a midrange phone for cheaper than the crap they sell at the drug store or department store electronics section in a clamshell package, now you are talking. Let's be honest - if the major iOS/Android apps all come to Windows 10 with the compatibility in programming, maybe you have a few converts. The biggest room for growth are first time users. As a high school teacher, kids going from a feature phone to smart phone still all want the social status that is an iPhone. If MS can get continuum tech into a Lumia 6xx or 5xx and it truly removes the need for a laptop/desktop/tablet, you have a hit.
    10-01-2015 05:25 PM
  10. mmcpher's Avatar
    As stated and explained in many of the earlier posts, MS would be selling this at a loss even at $900. They would even be selling at a loss at $1500. It really doesn't matter. They aren't making money on this. What matters is not the sales price, but sales volume, and that's where high-end lumias have always stumbled.
    This isn't a shareholder discussion board. I'm not talking about recouping all the phone segment sunk costs in R&D and fruitless former advertising, over-supply etc. I'm talking about how much it costs to manufacture and service each new device, versus the price to buy each device. If Microsoft was freighting the new devices with the burden of turning a massive, multi-year loss into a solid profit next year, they would price the 950Xl at $22,000 and then have to sell the hell out of them. If pricing is Apple-flavored, consumer appetite will be very low. Its been much discussed that the Lumias are not Surface branded phones. I hope Microsoft doesn't take the same tack that it did with the initial Surfaces. The counterweight to the Surface Pro 1's high price point was a deferred release and puny availability, so that economic disaster could be averted in the event the launch went bust-o. We had to wait for months and months for a very expensive device, with very expensive accessories.
    10-01-2015 05:59 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    This isn't a shareholder discussion board. I'm not talking about recouping all the phone segment sunk costs in R&D and fruitless former advertising, over-supply etc. I'm talking about how much it costs to manufacture and service each new device, versus the price to buy each device. If Microsoft was freighting the new devices with the burden of turning a massive, multi-year loss into a solid profit next year, they would price the 950Xl at $22,000 and then have to sell the hell out of them. If pricing is Apple-flavored, consumer appetite will be very low. Its been much discussed that the Lumias are not Surface branded phones. I hope Microsoft doesn't take the same tack that it did with the initial Surfaces. The counterweight to the Surface Pro 1's high price point was a deferred release and puny availability, so that economic disaster could be averted in the event the launch went bust-o. We had to wait for months and months for a very expensive device, with very expensive accessories.
    Has absolutely nothing to do with shareholder discussions. Software and hardware engineering are major contributing factors to the cost of each device. Smartphone OSes and hardware designs don't just pop into existence out of thin air. That costs hundreds of millions each quarter. Such investments must be made if you want a product to sell. If you're only calculating the material and assembly costs, you're not calculating the true cost at all.
    10-01-2015 06:07 PM
  12. Feoray's Avatar
    Either they price their phones the same or lower to the new Nexus phones or they should just leave the market. It really is quite simple. Only a fool would pay more for an inferior app experience.
    mariusmuntean and visu9211 like this.
    10-01-2015 06:22 PM
  13. Aquila's Avatar
    Is the goal of the sale to get users to use Microsoft's services or to sell a device? My guess based on your argument is that they would be best served to get people into the ecosystem with cost effective solutions - however there is a danger of precedent, and Google felt this with the Nexus line: Once you offer a fantastic product at a super-reduced price, people are not very charitable when you turn around a generation or two later and provide a fantastic product at a normal price. It may be wiser to market the product at full price (as far as MSRP) and entice users either with sales, and/or with associated products (discounts on Office 365, free OneDrive storage, etc, etc). If they are able to provide a great product at a modest or normal price and use other incentives to make that transaction into a great value for the consumer, that might be more of a win-win scenario than bottoming out their MSRP potentially for future generations by doing so with this one.
    10-01-2015 06:31 PM
  14. Aquila's Avatar
    Hopefully most of the sunk costs that you are referencing are in two places:

    1. Already in the price of the Nokia sale as R&D that was completed prior to or during the sale.
    2. Already (mostly) in the software development of Windows 10, independent of the Mobile division.

    I'd hope that they are not baking from scratch to release two devices and that the real cost of the device is much closer to the BOM+R&D than to the full mobile division loss divided by the 8 or so million devices shipped each quarter.

    Another good point already made, the ecosystem needs to be there once you hook someone on price - or they're going to jump off the next time someone else has a sale.
    Laura Knotek and 920Walker like this.
    10-01-2015 06:40 PM
  15. anon(9668900)'s Avatar
    Markets all around the world are different. For example, in India many people are still buying their first or second smartphones, and it's all about price-vs-spec-sheet. I don't think Microsoft is going to win the battle against Xiaomi, OnePlus, Huaweii, and so on, unless they can price the 950 at least similar to where they went with the 830. Anything above ₹30,000 and the stock will just sit in the shop for months, unsold. I think the ideal prices in India will be ₹26,000 and ₹30,000 for Lumia 950 and 950 XL [~260 and 300 GBP, 400 and 450 USD], and even that seems a little high, but at least the 950 will see the light of the day in that case.
    10-01-2015 06:53 PM
  16. Manmikey's Avatar
    There is no easy answer to this but some thoughts.....
    Amazon got pricing badly, badly wrong with its fire phone and I worry Ms will make the same mistake with the 950 and 950XL it deserves a premium price as it's internals are premium but most everyday people with their LGs, Samsung Galaxy's and iPhones are not going to consider a Lumia at those premium prices and it's those people that are needed to grow W10M.

    If Ms undercut other flagships then the perception could be that it is "only" a mid range device especially as it is not metal

    If you look at the original surface and surface RT they seemed really expensive for what they were but now with the 3rd generation we have apple and Google copying it! who'd have thought it!
    Maybe this is where microsoft wants to be with its phones, I can't help thinking the 950's are an interim stop gap to keep the enthusiasts happy until it can get its surface phone on the market. If this is the case then it will be a premium price as most of us who are considering buying one would pay the premium price.
    10-01-2015 06:55 PM
  17. Aquila's Avatar
    Maybe this is where microsoft wants to be with its phones, I can't help thinking the 950's are an interim stop gap to keep the enthusiasts happy until it can get its surface phone on the market. If this is the case then it will be a premium price as most of us who are considering buying one would pay the premium price.
    That's a good point. If they can control their inventory levels to just stay ahead of demand, then waste is reduced - but so are profits, as you have production costs divided by a smaller number of sales for all of the sunk costs.
    Guytronic likes this.
    10-01-2015 06:59 PM
  18. rory753's Avatar
    Microsoft is bundling their services with their hardware to make people interested. what if they bundled a seriously discounted skype service with their unlocked phones? for instance, you could buy an unlocked lumia, but be able to use the skype wifi system to make unlimited calls to land lines and unlimited text. imagine a phone you could buy where you wouldn't need a carrier. what would you pay for that?
    10-01-2015 07:30 PM
  19. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Microsoft is bundling their services with their hardware to make people interested. what if they bundled a seriously discounted skype service with their unlocked phones? for instance, you could buy an unlocked lumia, but be able to use the skype wifi system to make unlimited calls to land lines and unlimited text. imagine a phone you could buy where you wouldn't need a carrier. what would you pay for that?
    That would be useful to some users, but others would not get any benefit from it. None of my family or friends use Skype.
    10-01-2015 07:43 PM
  20. Murani Lewis's Avatar
    I would absolutely not sell at a loss. The flagship phones can be sold to those who want the best the platform has to offer and pay the appropriate premium. Microsoft can easily turn a good profit if they give the core users the premium experience enthusiasts want.
    Kjetil Stokke likes this.
    10-01-2015 07:56 PM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    for instance, you could buy an unlocked lumia, but be able to use the skype wifi system to make unlimited calls to land lines and unlimited text.
    You can already do that, totally free, with Google Hangouts.

    imagine a phone you could buy where you wouldn't need a carrier. what would you pay for that?
    You would still need a carrier for the Internet access.
    10-01-2015 08:04 PM
  22. Jazmac's Avatar
    Selling at a loss will push the manufacturers to use cheaper materials which leads to poor products. In most cases.
    Exactly my point.
    Have ya been to a Wal-mart lately? They have become the largest brick and mortar store in most neighborhoods boxing out almost all competition based on price. If you think that's good for you, just look at the quality of the stuff they sell in that store. yes its name brand, but almost all of what they sell has a different sku number and or model number for the same product in another store. What that means is, they have been pushed manufacturers to lower standards in their products in order to sell there. Which is one reason Apple stuff has a premium price. Selling at a loss for Microsoft would be a major loss for everyone.
    10-01-2015 08:04 PM
  23. jabtano's Avatar
    Well I just took a good look at the LG v10 I was thinking looking at omit and then the 950XL I understand what is inside the new Lumia but when I look at them and the the the new LG and the new Samsung galaxy line , device wise boy if the 950s are priced the only people buying them will be us. And from the sound of it even our WP gang here are decided over them.them of course we have to see how the exclusives go. Bottom line against what is out there now the 950 line isn't going to catch anyone's eye
    10-01-2015 08:23 PM
  24. Spicymikey's Avatar
    No. It won't help. No one with an iPhone or Android who is invested with apps and user experience is going to drop it unless the alternative was going to deliver more in terms of features. Right now, Windows offers less in terms of 3rd party apps and function. A lot less really. So they could give the phones away and it wouldn't help enough. Spend the money on enticing third party developers to build for the platform, or accelerate the project to port Android apps to the Windows store. THAT will make a difference in the long run
    mariusmuntean likes this.
    10-01-2015 08:43 PM
  25. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    I don't want a phone that is sold at a loss, it is not a viable long-term strategy and will only further dilute the value of Microsoft's platform. There is practically no revenue source for a windows phone post-sale. No one spends the $300 worth of apps required to make back the initial profit loss. Game consoles can be sold at a loss because of the $10 per game platform fee, which adds up quick. I can't think of one other mainstream electronic that is viable when sold at a loss.
    10-01-2015 10:02 PM
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