10-08-2015 09:02 PM
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  1. anguilla1980's Avatar
    I think history is going to repeat it's self with these devices. I think the 550 is going to out sell the 950 and XL for one price. I think Microsoft will have to market the 950 and XL very aggressively by highlighting what can be done on WIN 10 mobile compared to Android and IOS. I live in the Caribbean and the perception of windows phone is next to trash and that basic things can't be done compared to IOS and Android Cough!!! but actually there is some reason in it try setting a mp3 for a ringtone for example. I think Microsoft has to show what Win10 can do now in comparison to the others in relation to ease of use. Until then, I think die hards will only go for 950 and XL. Just my thoughts for now would love a 950 but my 920 will continue to the job till i can afford it but the 550 is looking a serious contender.
    Allot, ok most, of the perception issue is due to Digicel and Lime. I'm mean really, people here go by what's cool and what they see on TV. Without carriers educating a consumer on a product, then it doesn't have a chance. Digicel right now has people thinking the 1020 is hot **** because of the camera, that phone is how old now?! Then again, I don't think the Caribbean is a market anyone but local companies give a **** about, even then, they only give a **** in terms of taking peoples money.
    10-03-2015 02:52 AM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    To actually make the iPhone 6s Plus, it costs 242 dollars. Yes, the newest model of the iPhone costs that. And that's a HUGE profit. Now, of course, R&D, salaries, etc. But the actual device costs NOTHING.
    All consumer electronics cost virtually nothing to manufacture !!!!

    Manufacturing a CPU costs practically nothing, yet getting it to the point where you are able to have a functioning CPU roll off the production line often costs billions!

    It boggles the mind to see how you guys, despite theoretically understanding that this is no different for smartphones, can then turn around and claim all the work that went into engineering these devices should just be ignored. C'mon! It's nonsense.

    You could just as well say that the price of a smartphone should never be more than $10, because that's what postage and packaging costs you. This is similarly drawing a line accross the path that must be travelled to get a smartphone into consumer's hands, and ignoring all the costs associated with the steps that came before it. Drawing that line just before manufacturing is just as arbitrary and ridiculous as drawing it just before postage and packaging!

    If you're just going to flat out ignore all the engineering work that went into these devices, why stop there? Why not ignore manufacturing costs too? After all, selling for $10 is better than selling for $160. Right?

    There is absolutely no logic to this...
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-03-2015 at 10:54 AM. Reason: formatting
    Laura Knotek and melhiore like this.
    10-03-2015 03:15 AM
  3. Bobvfr's Avatar
    Bit late to the party on this one, I have to go back to how I got here to answer, I was about to ditch Windows out of my life a few years ago, but I kept on looking at my wife's WP7 metro design, and now my house is full of MS stuff, Xbox One's, Surfaces, various PC and Lumia's all in multiples of 3.

    But if MS get the pricing wrong on the new phones and I have to turn to an alternative for one device, then the temptation would be to turn to the alternatives other devices.

    My 1520 is up for replacement after Xmas and I have a few choices, keep the 1520 going, get one of the new WP's or jump ship (Not my preferred choice) but I cannot see how I could persuade others of my family to stay with Windows for much longer if they continue to have to rebuild from the ground up every year, not a massive app user but even I can see that however much I think Apple are selling nothing special for lots of pennies, I would struggle to stay on board, and as stated if my phone isn't o Windows the chances are my next other device purchase would also be on another platform.

    So MS need to get the pricing very right, I am not saying in any way they need to compensate us for the frustration, but I am not going to pay top pennies for a device that may not have a future so MS need to convince me they are committed even if that means selling at cost.
    visu9211 likes this.
    10-03-2015 03:47 AM
  4. amcluesent's Avatar
    Unless the 950XL is under 399 in the UK, I'll be staying with my 930 bought off Ebay
    10-03-2015 03:59 AM
  5. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I don't know what has gotten into me, I used to be a great advocate of competitive pricing. Anyhoo, here goes. I want Microsoft to price 950XL 950 as high as base model iPhone 6s+ and 6s.
    10-03-2015 04:59 AM
  6. anon(5335899)'s Avatar
    Pricing will be fair and at value, just like previous models. The notion Microsoft should sell at a loss is simply silly and nonsense. I'd expect these phones to come in at a lower price than the similar specced iPhones and Samsung devices but more expensive than the Chinese phones.

    If I had to guess, before taxes and subsidies they'll come in at €499 for the 950XL and €399 for the 950
    a5cent and libra89 like this.
    10-03-2015 05:16 AM
  7. Searcher2015's Avatar
    This writer's perspective is quite insightful. It is not what most of us will want to read but it does fit the facts and the most recent general pronouncements. I wish he would share more such insights.
    10-03-2015 05:49 AM
  8. Christopher Kendalls's Avatar
    Good point. I think that the market bore cheap Windows Phones because those were in line with what most people's opinions of Windows Phone is. At the time it was better than comparatively priced Android phones and there was a clear advantage there especially considering the freebies that came with Windows Phone. I'm not sure who is going to pay a premium for Windows Phone. Amazon and Blackberry have had that same issue selling premium phones for more than $500. So, although $800 may be a fair price for the 950, 950 XL, given the tech, the reality is more like $300, maybe even as low as $250, considering how people rank Windows Mobile as an OS.
    10-03-2015 07:43 AM
  9. jbestman's Avatar
    Jazmac, At some point, you have to be mature enough to understand that English is not everybody's mother tongue.
    10-03-2015 07:57 AM
  10. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    Jazmac, At some point, you have to be mature enough to understand that English is not everybody's mother tongue.
    jbestman, at some point you need to understand that you need to quote what you are referring to.
    10-03-2015 08:07 AM
  11. tgp's Avatar
    Oh please, the 930 is being sold for 350 euros right now unlocked, and they're making a profit off it if being sold at that price. Companies inflate their devices a lot. Does anyone actually think an iPhone is worth 900 euros? Or a Note 5 800? To actually make the iPhone 6s Plus, it costs 242 dollars. Yes, the newest model of the iPhone costs that. And that's a HUGE profit. Now, of course, R&D, salaries, etc. But the actual device costs NOTHING. If MS comes in charging 600 or 700 euros unlocked, that'll be a HUGE mistake. They should come in with 450 or 500 AT MOST. THEN people would consider windows phone. I would never pay that high price for a Samsung or iPhone or Windows Phone. It's just too much for ANY phone in my opinion!

    Hopefully Microsoft will be intelligent and not aim to make a HUGE PROFIT off of a 3% market share. They should increase their market share for this device that will be awesomely spec'd and then raise it a LITTLE bit like what Samsung has been doing over the past few years. Ever year their devices are MORE expensive.

    Galaxy note 5 http://www.techinsights.com/teardown...8312015/10.png 298 dollars
    Galaxy Note 2 cost 220 dollars.
    Iphone 6s Plus 242
    iPhone 3Gs cost 178
    iPhone 4 188

    Yes, they're more expensive today, but omg, NOW the price is INFLATED!
    There seems to be a misconception as to the measurement of an item's value. The value is not the cost of production plus a little markup for profit. Any retailer will tell you that the value of an item is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

    Stores have items where there is little or even no markup, and other items where they might have a 1,000% or more markup. It just depends on what we as customers are willing to pay.

    If Apple can sell 13 million iPhones in one weekend for $800 each, then obviously the value is there. You might not think so, but plenty of other people do. If you were Apple, would you price them at $400 if they'll sell for $800? Of course not!
    10-03-2015 08:28 AM
  12. Nuno Moz's Avatar
    Sold at a loss? Never.
    10-03-2015 09:42 AM
  13. lokeshkumar84's Avatar
    Samsung is spending a big amount for the promotion of its Galaxy S6, S6 Edge and Note lineup. All these are Samsung's Flagship devices. Microsoft have Lumia Icon, Lumia 930 and Lumia 1520 to compete with Samsung's Galaxy and Note lineup. But, have you ever seen any advertisement to promote these Lumia flagships? Microsoft is busy in promoting Lumia 540, 630 and 535 like low end devices. You are promoting your low cost devices and want profit from your Flagships. Is this right?

    Secondly, You are targeting wrong areas. Microsoft actually don't know where to sell its Smartphones and other Devices like Surface. That is why they are loosing. For example, India is a conventional market for Nokia/Microsoft. But Microsoft's priority is USA and European market only. From there, they start loosing. They provided a free space for other OEMs.

    I am expecting that Microsoft will learn by its previous experiences. I hope they will promote their Flagships with some interesting advertisements. And I also suggest that don't ignore your established markets like India, Brazil etc. People of these countries Like and Love Lumias and other Microsoft devices. So, fulfill the requirements at time, where and when it is needed.

    My last request to Microsoft is, please bring your newly announce devices to the market timely. Because, your newly announced devices gets older when others launch their new devices.
    Bloobed likes this.
    10-03-2015 09:58 AM
  14. leehab's Avatar
    The CEO came from the Clouds division and he said that is the future and he also said phone division will be scaled down as they do not want to pursue that .

    To me that is the greatest mistake MSFT has made . Cell phones are becoming more and more a daily device we are using thus ecosystem become a vital part of that . Samsung fell behind because it could not offer that and Apple offered it right away and constantly improved on it .

    The new CEO will fail in the Clouds as Amazon is not only #1 now but is set to revolutionize it next month . MSFT needs an outsider as CEO to save it

    The new phones should carry a low price because the hardware is outdated and price is the only way to get us , the current users , in upgrading . That is the only way to get new consumers to join
    Even when big companies want to promote a product they sell it at a loss to gain market share .
    Wendy started by giving away free burgers
    maktaba likes this.
    10-03-2015 10:23 AM
  15. 19Michael87's Avatar
    That's where the Universal App platform comes in. It is no longer only about the phones. If you develop for Windows 10 you develop for the 900 million users that are expected to come over from Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 to Microsofts latest and greatest within the next 11 months that the free upgrade plan will be available. The current 100 million Windows Phone users are more like icing on the cake.

    So Microsoft doesn't have to chase market share in the short run with their phones, instead of that they can chase profits. If they can announce growing revenue figures and some profit figueres most of the pressure will be gone. As most major Android OEMs produce at a loss. The critics in the tech blogosphere will lose all their ammo, and most likely start writing positive articles about how good Windows 10 Mobile is and that Microsoft is on the right track.

    And with Microsoft making money on their own mobile platform other OEMs will take notice and most likely get intrigued enough to investigate the possibility to enter the Windows 10 Mobile market with their own handsets.
    10-03-2015 10:38 AM
  16. hb1x's Avatar
    If you develop for Windows 10 you develop for the 900 million users that are expected to come over from Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 to Microsofts latest and greatest within the next 11 months that the free upgrade plan will be available. The current 100 million Windows Phone users are more like icing on the cake.
    It's time to wake up brother. Don't fall for the numbers MS tell you. Windows store is good only for the phones. Desktop users hardly use the store. Ask any universal app developer and they'll tell you the truth. The developer of Poki openly stated it once that making Poki an universal app hasn't improved its sale a bit. He even said that he'd rather make a win32/classic Windows app than a Windows store app.
    maktaba and Bloobed like this.
    10-03-2015 10:51 AM
  17. uncle_maxim's Avatar
    Why do people quote such a nonsense figure?
    In modern economics cost includes everyhting - from R&D to storage and transportation. So yeah, it pretty much reflects everything. The companies ain't that stupid to calculate cost of assembly separately from R&D expenses.

    If you develop for Windows 10 you develop for the 900 million users that are expected to come over from Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 to Microsofts latest and greatest within the next 11 months that the free upgrade plan will be available.
    I heard a similar story about WP8 back in late 2013
    920Walker likes this.
    10-03-2015 10:57 AM
  18. zkyevolved's Avatar
    All consumer electronics cost virtually nothing to manufacture !!!!

    Manufacturing a CPU costs practically nothing, yet getting it to the point where you are able to have a functioning CPU roll off the production line often costs billions!

    It boggles the mind to see how you guys, despite theoretically understanding that this is no different for smartphones, can then turn around and claim all the work that went into engineering these devices should just be ignored. C'mon! It's nonsense..
    I actually MENTIONED that in my post. But ... OK... Regardless, the SAME R&D goes into the iPhone product,s and yet the iphone 4 was launched at a retail price of 599... It's INCREDIBLE how you, with the theoretical understand of how to comment my comment mentioning the same thing I mentioned, can not see how prices are marked up just because they can. Same R&D, manufacturing, pieces (basically, at the time 16gb cost the same thing that 64 today does, probably, and screens! don't even get me started on screens!). All I'm saying is that Microsoft should NOT follow Samsung and Apple and charge 800 euros for a device. Any layman would go to the store and would see "SAMSUNG galaxy blah or APPLE iPhone" with HUGE ecosystems, and years of support, followers, and popularity... And then there is Microsoft who is really launching its very first premium cell phone with an ecosystem that scares developers and dwindles... So, yes, as my original post stated: Microsoft, don't over charge for your device like Apple and Samsung CAN because they're what's in.

    You could just as well say that the price of a smartphone should never be more than $10, because that's what postage and packaging costs you. This is similarly drawing a line accross the path that must be travelled to get a smartphone into consumer's hands, and ignoring all the costs associated with the steps that came before it. Drawing that line just before manufacturing is just as arbitrary and ridiculous as drawing it just before postage and packaging!
    Are you OK?? How on earth did you get that 10 dollar gig? $10??? ... Lol. I think saying that my LG G4 which costs now 430 euros, which still generates an INCOME for LG is A LOT less than 800 euros for other devices. If LG can do R&D and manufacture and ship and advertise their device and make a profit selling their G4s, which by the way are selling VERY VERY well according to their latest reports. So yeah, $10 is your absolutely absurd exaggeration, but 400-500 euros for a premier device is not out of the question, especially for a struggling mobile division that can't really get their foot in the door. Look at OnePlus One and Two! They sell VERY good hardware with a GREAT software experience for a fraction of the cost of Samsung, Apple, HTC, etc.

    If you're just going to flat out ignore all the engineering work that went into these devices, why stop there? Why not ignore manufacturing costs too? After all, selling for $10 is better than selling for $160. Right?

    There is absolutely no logic to this...
    I actually believe you're the only one who is ignoring it... which by the way only means you didn't see this: 10.png

    Which includes manufacturing .... So... BOOM! Good bye :)
    920Walker likes this.
    10-03-2015 11:13 AM
  19. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    The issue here is that some of you speak of the avergae consumer as if they're as knowledgeable about the product as you are about Windows Phone. You should be thinking about hipsters and those who simply want what's either perceived as cool or exclusive. Part of the marketing that goes into that involves pricing it inline with it's competitors. If those $120 jeans that youngsters buy only cost $60, they wouldn't but them. They won't come right out and admit that price was a factor and in their defense sometimes it's subconscious. The price DID play a factor though.

    If they only want the members of Windows Central and the small percentile of Windows Phone enthusiasts to buy the phone then sure, lowball. To everyone else it won't be as sexy if it's priced in the range of the rest of the uncool, not sexy devices.
    10-03-2015 11:15 AM
  20. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Problem is Nadella has stated Microsoft is no longer interested in chasing marketshare with their phone business and instead will be moving away "from a strategy to grow a standalone phone business", in that scenario seems they would be less willing to take a loss on however many handsets they do manage to sell.
    For them to say they are not interested in chasing Market share, is 100% BS. If they are not chasing market share why even make Windows Phone ? The market is clearly showing that iOS and Android are outselling Windows Phone every day. So, they invest BILLIONS in Nokia but, they have no interest in Market share ? Really ? Are people that clueless to believe that for one second ?

    It comes down to basic math, Microsoft owns the Windows Phone store, when you sell an app, Microsoft makes a profit (Just like Apple does and Google does)., if your not selling phones (aka building market share), the apps will sell less and in turn make less money. Microsoft is a business above anything else, if it's not making them ANY MONEY and it keeps LOSING MONEY, for them, it would be a multi billion dollar tax write off. We are not talking a little mom and pop shop, we are talking a global company who is involved in business in every country in the world, that makes many billions of dollars a year. They make large investments like this all the time (maybe 2 times a year) and if they don't turn a profit, or they use their tech for something of their own, they sell or close them down.

    Microsoft has been pushing low end phones for a few years now, why do that ? Think about it, How to make market share is to flood the market with lower price point phones, more people with less income will jump at a full featured smartphone with at this price point, and there are a lot of "well off" people who just want a phone, that does "smartphone" features but, with a low cost because they don't really care about them that much. Again, business 101 would see what they are trying to do with this.

    Now that they captured (or competing very well) in the low end market, now it's time to make 2 super high end phones. These HAVE to be true flagships, to go HEAD TO HEAD to the iOS and Android offerings in this segment. Anything less would be a disappointment for anyone who is buying phones at this level. Don't worry with the feature set that they are claiming, it should be able to go HEAD TO HEAD with them.

    I am someone who watches this market very well, they will sell these phones for a loss but, only to hit a price point. I see the 2 models being priced about $50-75 less than the iPhone models (6 and 6+) and same in the flagship Android devices in the FULL retail price area. If the iPhone 6 is $199 (on contract) and the 6+ is $299, then you will see the 950 for around $130-150 and the LX to be in the $200-250 range.

    All the talk about this is interesting, think your getting a 950xl for $300 at full retail, that is not going to happen, they will be VERY aggressively priced but, directly priced under the big competitors that they are going head to head with.

    No matter what everyone thinks, Microsoft as a company is not dumb, they have 100's of people studying the marketplace, they know EXACTLY where these need to be priced at to make them FIT in the marketplace. Too much and they wont sell, to little and they get the thought of it being a lower end cheap phone.

    So, all in all, expect these phones to be full retail priced about $50-75 less than iOS, or Android flagships. I would be shocked if it was less by much and if it's more, they could be shooting themselves in the foot.

    It will be interesting to see how it plays out...
    IndyJG likes this.
    10-03-2015 11:29 AM
  21. Bloobed's Avatar
    No.

    I'm sure it's been said before, but at this point the problem is the Windows Phone OS and ecosystem, and the perception of them. Going cheap would only strengthen the perception that there is less inherent value in WP. That tactic might have worked 3-4 years ago (same with the low-end barrage), but not with the established ecosystems of today. It's also not comparable to Nexus phones which are a rotating OEM -endorsement -system. At this point ,the ones considering 950/XL will purchase them or mid range versions even without low pricing.
    10-03-2015 11:36 AM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    For them to say they are not interested in chasing Market share, is 100% BS.
    Maybe the term "interested" isn't quite right. Nadella wasn't kidding when he said that he no longer considers WP to be in competition with iOS and Android however.

    MS surely wouldn't say no if W10M suddenly grabbed a lot of market share, but MS will no longer be chasing it. That's what being "not interested" meant. There will be no more multi-hundred million dollar marketing campaigns. There will be no more attempts to flood the market with phones. There will be no more huge investments into the smartphone sector. All that is over.

    WP is along for the ride, and may eventually play a role as an enabler for some alternative strategy to enter the mobile market, but the view that W10M as a smartphone OS, is being pitting directly against Android or iOS in a bid for consumer favor and market share.. that chapter is over.

    Of course MS has other ideas on how to become more relevant in the mobile sector, but W10M / smartphones won't be the business unit leading that charge.
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    10-03-2015 12:05 PM
  23. ymcpa's Avatar
    The subsidized model has been replaced with the leasing model. After Apple announced their program, all the carriers followed. You trade in your old iphone and get a new one for a low monthly fee and you can replace the phone every year or the do the installment payments for 24 months. No one is buying these phones upfront. So, even though the carriers finally separated the cost of the phone from the plan, people still make monthly payments for it. They are too stupid to see that these phones are perfectly fine after 2 years and they could save a few hundred dollars by buying the phone and using it longer than 2 years. It's the old lease vs buy debate. Buying is always cheaper over the long term but leasing is cheaper currently and it gets you a new device more often. Selling the phones at cost won't have any effect. All people see is that they are paying and $30/ mo for the iphone. A windows might be $19/mo but people will think that $11/mo is no big deal. They don't see that it is a $264 savings over 24 months. They also probably won't notice that with an iphone you have to pay an extra $100 to get a usable amount of storage.
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    10-03-2015 12:28 PM
  24. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    In modern economics cost includes everyhting - from R&D to storage and transportation. So yeah, it pretty much reflects everything. The companies ain't that stupid to calculate cost of assembly separately from R&D expenses.



    I heard a similar story about WP8 back in late 2013
    And all of it is still an analyst guessing.
    10-03-2015 12:33 PM
  25. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Maybe the term "interested" isn't quite right. Nadella wasn't kidding when he said that he no longer considers WP to be in competition with iOS and Android however.

    MS surely wouldn't say no if W10M suddenly grabbed a lot of market share, but MS will no longer be chasing it. That's what being "not interested" meant. There will be no more multi-hundred million dollar marketing campaigns. There will be no more attempts to flood the market with phones. There will be no more huge investments into the smartphone sector. All that is over.

    WP is along for the ride, and may eventually play a role as an enabler for some alternative strategy to enter the mobile market, but the view that W10M as a smartphone OS, is being pitting directly against Android or iOS in a bid for consumer favor and market share.. that chapter is over.

    Of course MS has other ideas on how to become more relevant in the mobile sector, but W10M / smartphones won't be the business unit leading that charge.
    Yea, I agree but, on the other side of it, they are clearly interested in Market share due the facts I claimed. If they didn't really care, why create Universal apps ? Why create a plugin to port iOS and Android apps directly to Windows phone ? Why even create these *new flagships* ?

    They are pushing Windows 10 (PC) really hard and if Windows 10 does really well, I think their end goal here Windows 10 does well, Devs use the quick mod to their apps to make them Universal apps, WP gets more apps, and in the end sells more phones. It's showing that Windows 10 Mobile COULD be the last OS for them on the mobile market, they are really counting on this to work.

    No question, there is a BIGGER story here, would love to hear in to one of their corporate meetings about this subject.

    I hope they are after market share, I really do, as a Windows Phone user, more phones that sell, mean more apps, and make ME enjoy Windows phone more.

    Again, as a WP fan, my eyes and hears will be on this announcement in a few days, I guess more details will be laid out then.
    10-03-2015 12:39 PM
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