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  1. x I'm tc's Avatar
    The gap is vast. Absolutely vast.

    Rather than saying "there aren't very many missing apps on WP" I would say that there aren't very many good apps on Windows Phone. That is, even if there are alternatives available for many missing first-party applications, they are poor ones. And, in general, and even in the case of MS own apps, the first party apps we do have are just plain lousy.

    Indeed, I struggle to think of a single app on Windows Phone that is better than what is available on Android. Possibly, there isn't a single one.
    chmun77 likes this.
    08-24-2015 07:37 AM
  2. Alok Sinha2210's Avatar
    The gap is really vast. It's true that we do have almost all the useful apps on Windows platform but many of these apps lag behind if we compare them with their existing version on other platforms. Windows phone also lags a lot behind if we talk about the quality games on it.Android guys have a lot more to choose but on Windows the number sucks as we even do not have much options to choose from.
    08-24-2015 07:54 AM
  3. ynulsicx's Avatar
    I would say the gap is absolutely horrible. There was a time when some new official apps appeared but it's over. Windows Phone has already had it's "peak" if this word can be used. Now we can only expect apps getting unpublished. Vevo is no longer available. Instagram has been in BETA for 2 years and it's not fully functional. I won't be surprised if Spotify gets removed or will never be updated, the app is already outdated.
    chmun77 likes this.
    08-24-2015 07:58 AM
  4. RaRa85's Avatar

    I'd agree with your point if I also thought W10M was in the situation you think it's in.

    I suspect you view W10M as being MS' last ditch effort, with its popularity amongst consumers hanging from a thread which is close to snapping, which if it does, will signal the end of MS' mobile OS. That would make for a great tech-movie cliff hanger, but I don't see it that way at all.

    I think that thread has already snapped. W10M is already no longer the OS we knew. Whether we still love it is a matter of personal preference. Most just haven't realized it yet. Most of us still view WM as participating in a three way race for smartphone market share, but as far as I'm concerned, MS really was not kidding when they said they no longer see WM as competing with iOS and Android. MS are still competing in the overall mobile landscape, but specifically the smartphone battle is over and lost. W10M is primarily about adapting to the consequences of that lost battle, more than it's about continuing that battle.

    However, having lost that battle doesn't necessarily mean WM is going away. WM will stick around as a vehicle for innovation in the run up to whatever comes after the mobile revolution. Maybe MS will eventually come up with something that allows them to revisit the smartphone battle, but for now, it's over.

    In the mean time, I fully expect MS to be a significant force in pushing for those technical capabilities enabling OS neutral mobile apps. For reasons partly mentioned at the top of this post, I also think that would have the best chance of actually closing the app gap.
    Well I did kind of view this latest iteration of Microsoft's mobile vision as their last chance at mobile. I know this platform will never grow to the numbers Android and Apple have which is fine as long as we grow to 5,6, 10% and so on. That would be great. I took a year off from Windows Phone to try something different since we weren't getting a flagship last year anyway. I found Android to be a mostly pleasant experience and yes the apps are very nice. For me personally there are only a few missing apps from WP but again the quality of what is already available needs a huge boost in terms of speed and features. I will be getting either the Lumia 940/940XL (whichever comes to T-Mobile) because I believe in Windows 10 Mobile. So in reality maybe this is me giving the platform it's last shot as my mobile choice since now I know what's available outside of the Windows ecosystem. While we're on the app conversation, I would not mind if all the popular social media apps from either Android or iOS replace what we have available now.And while I'll give Windows 10 Mobile the chance it deserves, if the app QUALITY does not change within a year (and I would like to see a small number of missing apps become available along with some remote shutter apps for photography) I will settle down with Apple. But I just have a good feeling it won't come to that.


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    Last edited by RaRa85; 08-24-2015 at 08:20 AM. Reason: A few more points
    08-24-2015 08:16 AM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    I know this platform will never grow to the numbers Android and Apple have which is fine as long as we grow to 5,6, 10% and so on <snipped> I would not mind if all the popular social media apps from either Android or iOS replace what we have available now. And while I'll give Windows 10 Mobile the chance it deserves, if the app QUALITY does not change within a year (and I would like to see a small number of missing apps become available along with some remote shutter apps for photography) I will settle down with Apple. But I just have a good feeling it won't come to that.
    I think there is a good chance you'll get that. Not in the form of a W10M app, but as a bridge-ported Android or (more likely) iOS app.
    To your eyes this would represent W10M hitting its stride and becoming a legitimate competitor. If a lot of people see it that way, great. I doubt anyone beyond existing WP users care. I don't see that as having any chance of moving the market share needle towards 5 or 6 yet alone 10%.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-24-2015 at 09:28 AM. Reason: last scentence
    RaRa85 likes this.
    08-24-2015 09:03 AM
  6. RaRa85's Avatar
    I think there is a good chance you'll get that. Not in the form of a W10M app, but as a bridge-ported Android or (more likely) iOS app.
    To your eyes this would represent WM hitting its stride and becoming a legitimate competitor. If a lot of people see it that way, great. I doubt anyone except existing WP users care.
    I think it just removes a lot of the initial resentments of switching to Windows Phone especially from the whiniest of the whiny, nitpicking naysayers of the platform. I say this all the time and I stoll believe it to be true: if Android, iOS, and Windows Phone all had the same exact apps the gap and perception between the platforms would shift greatly. I think even Windows Phone would be ahead of Apple in that case with Apple being the most basic and boring as far as customization goes. But that's just half the battle. With most phones being basically the same just with a different take on function, I really believe the potential is very high with the early success of Windows 10 and the possibilities with Continuum. I can't wait to see how it's going to change the way we use our phones. This feature is also great because it once again sets Windows Phone apart IF Microsoft doesn't lend this feature over as well.

    Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk
    a5cent and libra89 like this.
    08-24-2015 09:26 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I like your optimism! ;-)

    What we disagree on are ultimately subtle issues that have big consequences. As previously stated, I don't believe that putting WP on equal app-footing with iOS or Android will have any significant consequences whatsoever. You believe that could potentially put WP ahead of iOS. We probably won't resolve this difference here. I really hope you are right and I'm wrong about that. I'll leave it at that.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-24-2015 at 04:32 PM.
    RaRa85 likes this.
    08-24-2015 09:34 AM
  8. RaRa85's Avatar
    Yeah I have big hopes for Windows 10 Mobile more so than any other time because for the first time Microsoft already have their cores set up to support the vision. With Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8.1 the mobile side had some growth but the desktop vision was not received well. While Windows 10 still has some polishing left to do(from what I hear mostly on the tablet side), it has been well received, and it's free. With the technology available to have our phones integrate more than ever with our desktops and tablets, I think the apps are the last piece of the vision. We'll just have to wait and see if that pans out. 👍

    Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk
    a5cent likes this.
    08-24-2015 09:42 AM
  9. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I think it just removes a lot of the initial resentments of switching to Windows Phone especially from the whiniest of the whiny, nitpicking naysayers of the platform. I say this all the time and I stoll believe it to be true: if Android, iOS, and Windows Phone all had the same exact apps the gap and perception between the platforms would shift greatly. I think even Windows Phone would be ahead of Apple in that case with Apple being the most basic and boring as far as customization goes. But that's just half the battle. With most phones being basically the same just with a different take on function, I really believe the potential is very high with the early success of Windows 10 and the possibilities with Continuum. I can't wait to see how it's going to change the way we use our phones. This feature is also great because it once again sets Windows Phone apart IF Microsoft doesn't lend this feature over as well.

    Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk
    MS's image problems go beyond just WP. Many people moved to Apple simply because they got 'tired' of Windows and it's issues. Unfortunately 'issues' continue to be a problem with Windows 10 and I have people here who have had issues updating and others saying you should get a MAC because it 'just works'.

    MS's biggest stronghold is still enterprise and that's because Apple is too expensive and the software some companies use (like mine) don't exist on Apple. If there was more cheap Apple products for enterprise I have little doubt that there would be more companies using them beyond allow tablets and phones on their systems.

    I know this goes beyond the topic of this thread but this is the reality. MS has and continues to have an image problem and nothing has been done to really help it. Add in issues with the 'free upgrade' and you get unhappy people. Then complete that picture with most enterprises not upgrading to W10 any time soon and you have the other problems of people not being exposed to the latest and greatest that MS has to offer. IT admins are very very conservative especially in large corporations.

    So there are many different aspects that are effecting MS. The drop in PC use, the lack of enterprise upgrades, not focusing on enterprise initially with their WP offering to get more phones into people's hands. etc. There's been many missed opportunities and many blunders.

    All we can do is wait and see. Maybe a5cent is right and the advent of web apps is where we are heading. It's a good thought. Some reading I did recently talked about the ability to store information on devices from web apps would make this kind of thing more viable. There's little reason why a web app can't look and act like a mobile app if done correctly.
    Last edited by N_LaRUE; 08-24-2015 at 10:47 AM.
    a5cent and RaRa85 like this.
    08-24-2015 09:51 AM
  10. kevin_tenza's Avatar
    This post is rant central... Lol... I love it!
    08-24-2015 09:51 AM
  11. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    For Snapchat, such a hypothetical OS neutral web app would have absolutely nothing to do with supporting users who aren't on Android or iOS. Snapchat currently pays for development of both their iOS and Android apps. Leveraging future web based technologies (i.e. not necessarily browser based) would allow Snapchat to replace those two native apps with one single web app, thereby significantly reducing their development and support costs. For the overwhelming majority of businesses, reducing operating costs are a very powerful motivator. Furthermore, companies will still want/need a traditional web portal. Having all B2C portals employing the same technologies, and having them maintained by the same group of developers further reduces costs, while potentially also improving quality and consistency. That proposition will be almost impossible for any CTO to resist. There are quite a few more arguments to be made for this approach, but I think these two arguments alone are already more than enough...

    Finally, the exact same argument you are making now could also have been made 15 years ago. Why did any company even attempt to make web based applications, when there was no relevant market worth supporting outside of Windows? Well, web apps happened anyway... native mobile apps will get the same competition, for many of the same reasons... eventually...
    Then why haven't they already? If it was so lucrative to develop a web based version of Snapchat and cut out their development costs, why haven't they? I hardly think it leverages any technology that isn't available via the web currently.

    But while Snapchat might be easily "webbable," that isn't the case for a lot of apps.

    The bigger concern though, and that I think I implied in my more recent comments, is what is indicated by Bing's new Android app - which integrates with almost all content that can be on your Android phone's screen. Or in the many launcher/messaging/browser apps for Android. Or in apps that contain extensions to wearables, such as Uber allowing you to call a car via your Apple Watch, or Google Translate transcribing spoken text on Android Wear. These are services that certainly utilize the "web" extensively, but wouldn't be able to be done simply by web app. You mentioned real time games as another example.

    Web apps can do a lot - take Facebook Messenger, its a great web app - and using web tech like HTML5 et al. to build "universal" apps (like Microsoft has been pushing since Win 8) is great for a lot of stuff. But for the (multiple) device level access needed by the above examples just isn't doable via only that sort of app.

    The idea of everything being device agnostic web apps is admirable, but it just isn't realistic in a ton of scenarios - and with that being the case, when iOS - and even more Android, sort of the "Windows" of mobile OSes - have the adoption that they do, it makes sense to spend the bulk of your development on those platforms specifically.
    08-24-2015 10:19 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Then why haven't they already?
    I already explained why. Because we don't yet have the software technologies required to make that easy. It's simply not yet easily possible to replace native apps with web apps without making unacceptable sacrifices to the user experience.

    You might as well ask why a maps app like maps.google.com wasn't released back in 96? Why were Google apps and Online Office not yet released in 2004? There are thousands of examples like this, all of which have the same answer... because it wasn't yet possible at the time. Someone, at some time in the past, decided that it should be possible to make such applications using nothing but web based technologies. Some people ended up being tasked with inventing the software technologies and standards to turn those ideas into reality. Some of them were successful. Many failed. Some of those ideas are now part of HTML5 standard. The rest is history...

    It shouldn't be so hard to believe that we're working on the future's history right now...

    I'll leave it at that. Believe it or don't believe it. Both are fine with me.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-24-2015 at 06:51 PM.
    Laura Knotek and Ntropy99 like this.
    08-24-2015 10:51 AM
  13. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Then why haven't they already? If it was so lucrative to develop a web based version of Snapchat and cut out their development costs, why haven't they? I hardly think it leverages any technology that isn't available via the web currently.

    But while Snapchat might be easily "webbable," that isn't the case for a lot of apps.

    The bigger concern though, and that I think I implied in my more recent comments, is what is indicated by Bing's new Android app - which integrates with almost all content that can be on your Android phone's screen. Or in the many launcher/messaging/browser apps for Android. Or in apps that contain extensions to wearables, such as Uber allowing you to call a car via your Apple Watch, or Google Translate transcribing spoken text on Android Wear. These are services that certainly utilize the "web" extensively, but wouldn't be able to be done simply by web app. You mentioned real time games as another example.

    Web apps can do a lot - take Facebook Messenger, its a great web app - and using web tech like HTML5 et al. to build "universal" apps (like Microsoft has been pushing since Win 8) is great for a lot of stuff. But for the (multiple) device level access needed by the above examples just isn't doable via only that sort of app.

    The idea of everything being device agnostic web apps is admirable, but it just isn't realistic in a ton of scenarios - and with that being the case, when iOS - and even more Android, sort of the "Windows" of mobile OSes - have the adoption that they do, it makes sense to spend the bulk of your development on those platforms specifically.
    Not entirely sure what information you have concerning web apps is but you're missing the point here I think.

    a5cent's point is not a IF but WHEN. It might not happen with HTML5 even though it probably has most of the capabilities needed, it may be HTML6 or above when we finally go this route.

    The requirements for web apps will also be reliant on what the handset has available to execute the code as well. Lacking anything and the app won't work as described. I think this is the main concern as to why they're not more readily used now. I have little doubt that Apple is a big reason why there isn't more web apps. They have a tendency to do things 'their own way'.

    So as long as Apple is a big player everyone will keep bowing to their demands. Until there's a big enough shift and more of a exodus to do thing different with companies finally demanding Apple do things their way we won't see much of a shift.
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    08-24-2015 10:57 AM
  14. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    Not entirely sure what information you have concerning web apps is but you're missing the point here I think.

    a5cent's point is not a IF but WHEN. It might not happen with HTML5 even though it probably has most of the capabilities needed, it may be HTML6 or above when we finally go this route.

    The requirements for web apps will also be reliant on what the handset has available to execute the code as well. Lacking anything and the app won't work as described. I think this is the main concern as to why they're not more readily used now. I have little doubt that Apple is a big reason why there isn't more web apps. They have a tendency to do things 'their own way'.

    So as long as Apple is a big player everyone will keep bowing to their demands. Until there's a big enough shift and more of a exodus to do thing different with companies finally demanding Apple do things their way we won't see much of a shift.
    I already explained why. Because we don't yet have the software technologies required to make that easy. It's simply not yet easily possible to replace native apps with web apps without making unacceptable sacrifices to the user experience.

    You might as well ask why a maps app like maps.google.com wasn't released back in 96? Why were Google apps and Online Office not yet released in 2004? There are thousands of examples like this, all of which have the same answer... because it wasn't yet possible at the time. Someone, at some time in the past, decided that it should be possible to make such applications using nothing but web based technologies. Some people ended up being tasked with inventing the software technologies and standards to turn those ideas into reality. Some of them were successful. Many failed. Some of those ideas are now part of HTML5 standard. The rest is history...

    It shouldn't be so hard to believe that that we're working on the future's history right now...

    I'll leave it at that. Believe it or don't believe it. Both are fine with me.
    Yeah - but the point of this thread remains - maybe in 15 years, using a Microsoft powered phone will allow you tap into the vast universe of platform agnostic apps on your phone and watch and tablet and AR/VR glasses, etc.

    But today? Or even in 2 or 3 years?

    You're missing out.
    Last edited by c0wb0ycliche; 08-24-2015 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Grammar
    08-24-2015 11:04 AM
  15. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Not entirely sure what information you have concerning web apps is but you're missing the point here I think.

    a5cent's point is not a IF but WHEN. It might not happen with HTML5 even though it probably has most of the capabilities needed, it may be HTML6 or above when we finally go this route.

    The requirements for web apps will also be reliant on what the handset has available to execute the code as well. Lacking anything and the app won't work as described. I think this is the main concern as to why they're not more readily used now. I have little doubt that Apple is a big reason why there isn't more web apps. They have a tendency to do things 'their own way'.

    So as long as Apple is a big player everyone will keep bowing to their demands. Until there's a big enough shift and more of a exodus to do thing different with companies finally demanding Apple do things their way we won't see much of a shift.
    I see Apple's influence being both good and bad. It was a positive that mobile Adobe Flash died, and that was due to Apple. Now we just need the death of desktop Adobe Flash.
    libra89, a5cent and N_LaRUE like this.
    08-24-2015 11:26 AM
  16. maevinj's Avatar
    If I could get Target's cartwheel app, I would switch back in a heartbeat! It's not easy to shop with a kid while carrying around my iPad and Windows Phone.
    Sadly the main question I get from people about Windows phone is, well is this *insert specific app* on there. Most of the time I have to say no...
    08-24-2015 11:28 AM
  17. libra89's Avatar
    I would say the gap is absolutely horrible. There was a time when some new official apps appeared but it's over. Windows Phone has already had it's "peak" if this word can be used. Now we can only expect apps getting unpublished. Vevo is no longer available. Instagram has been in BETA for 2 years and it's not fully functional. I won't be surprised if Spotify gets removed or will never be updated, the app is already outdated.
    Spotify is actually updated though randomly. Not as often as it can be but more than some of the other official apps have been.

    I am considering a sub with them sometime in the future, and since they actually do update their app, there is a possible chance that they can continue to support.
    08-24-2015 11:42 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Yeah - but the point of this thread remains - maybe in 15 years, using a Microsoft powered phone will allow you tap into the vast universe of platform agnostic apps on your phone and watch and tablet and AR/VR glasses, etc..
    That's not really the point of this thread. I do find that a more interesting topic however. IMHO the original question of whether an app gap exists at all, is simply not worthy of a debate. The app gap exists. Period. That gap has multiple dimensions to it, which have been pointed out over and over again in this thread. Denying that is simply delusional or ignorant or both. All anyone can say is that they don't care, because they aren't impacted by that app gap. I'm in that camp.

    But today? Or even in 2 or 3 years? You're missing out.
    Yup. If all you're interested in is getting your app-fix on WM NOW, no matter the cost, then don't worry. MS has your poison almost all bagged up and ready for delivery. That's what MS hopes their iOS and Android bridges will provide. That's not 2 or 3 years away. Those are very close to being released.

    From a consumer's point of view that is probably the only topic of interest. From a developers point of view that is nowhere close to putting WP on equal footing. That's where this topic of OS independent app development comes in, which I don't want to get any further into than we already have.

    Two different things...
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    08-24-2015 11:50 AM
  19. c0wb0ycliche's Avatar
    Yup. If all you're interested in is getting your app-fix on WM NOW, no matter the cost, then don't worry. MS has your poison almost all bagged up and ready for delivery. That's what MS hopes their iOS and Android bridges will provide. That's not 2 or 3 years away. Those are very close to being released.
    But here is our (more on topic) disagreement.

    The iOS and Android app programs require that the developers (very easily) "port" their apps to Windows... and I'm not convinced that will happen. Especially when you consider that Amazon's Fire devices natively run Android apps - and STILL don't have "ports" of apps like Snapchat/Cartwheel etc. or anything that requires Google Play Services.

    For a Windows phone user now and in the next couple years - I don't think there is good evidence that the app gap will get much better. And that is disconcerting.
    08-24-2015 12:04 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ We have no disagreement here. I was deliberate in my choice of words when I said "that's what MS hopes their iOS and Android bridges will provide". I don't know enough to risk any of my own predictions, so I neither agree nor disagree with you. Either way, I'm not a fan of their bridges, and I won't be even if they do work (for reasons I won't get into here either).
    Laura Knotek and N_LaRUE like this.
    08-24-2015 12:07 PM
  21. gernerttl's Avatar
    What Microsoft needs is another one of these. The huge event when Windows 95 was released 20 years ago. It was marketing genius. Apple didn't come up with HUGE events like this. Microsoft was in the for front. Nadella needs to put together something like this. You could almost say it was the Woodstock of the tech industry. It was a keystone event that really got people truly excited about Microsoft. Something that I really haven't seen Microsoft do in quite awhile. At least not at the level this event was at.

    Remembering the Windows 95 launch: A triumph of marketing
    08-24-2015 02:11 PM
  22. MikeX74's Avatar
    As I've said in similar posts, the gap isn't just about the quantity, or even quality of the apps on WP vs. iOS or Android, it's the apps people use in their daily lives or routines. For me, the lack of apps for banking, local transit, and local businesses/interests(among other things) sour me on using a WP as my daily driver. Of course, someone will come along and say, "Just use the browser," and that's a logical argument, but if I'm a consumer, and I have a phone/OS that has dedicated apps for what I need/want, why would I switch to a phone/OS that doesn't?
    chmun77 likes this.
    08-24-2015 02:39 PM
  23. wgs84's Avatar
    The app situation is definitely better with iOS and Android. It's been nine months since I switched from Android to Windows Phone, and even though I've managed to make do with apps available on the Windows Store, I'd be lying if I said the quality was the same. Take, for example, apps for the WD My Cloud. All that exists is WD 2GO, and it's buggy and hasn't been updated in almost two years. Or the Xfinity TV Remote app. Again, buggy and hasn't been updated in almost two years. Even MS own apps aren't as good. OneNote, OneDrive, Office are far better on iOS and Android. I'm not saying that apps don't work on Windows Phone, and I have managed to make it work good enough on my Lumia, but you have to be in denial to think there isn't an app gap in terms of quality and quantity.
    chmun77 likes this.
    08-24-2015 03:59 PM
  24. ianberg's Avatar
    I'm a longtime Windows Phone 7 user. I recently got a Android Lollipop rather than upgrade to Windows Phone 8 as several companies I do business with still had not offered a Windows Phone app. But the biggest app gap hole that I filled by going to Android was Google Chrome. Chrome syncs with ease between my Windows 10 laptop, iPad and Android phone while Internet Explorer on my Windows Phone does not offer this feature.

    But I have not given away or recycled my Windows Phone 7. It has always worked fine for texting, calling, taking pictures, browsing the web on WIFI, and using as a portable media device. But that no longer is enough. I do not expect to go back to a Windows phone as long as Android is ahead in the app game.
    08-24-2015 03:59 PM
  25. chmun77's Avatar
    As I've said in similar posts, the gap isn't just about the quantity, or even quality of the apps on WP vs. iOS or Android, it's the apps people use in their daily lives or routines. For me, the lack of apps for banking, local transit, and local businesses/interests(among other things) sour me on using a WP as my daily driver. Of course, someone will come along and say, "Just use the browser," and that's a logical argument, but if I'm a consumer, and I have a phone/OS that has dedicated apps for what I need/want, why would I switch to a phone/OS that doesn't?
    Right to the points!

    And not forgetting that with beautiful devices like Note 5 and S6 Edge+ releasing, more and more people will be flocking over to Android. Will the upcoming 930 XL be as posh as Note5 / S6 Edge+? I highly doubt so. Will Continuum, and Universal apps be good enough to pull Android/iOS users over to W10M? Again, I highly doubt so. Without the looks and strong app supports, who in the right mind to get a W10M in the near future?
    08-24-2015 08:47 PM
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