03-30-2016 03:05 AM
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  1. fatclue_98's Avatar
    It may not be the OEM's responsibility, but how many average users are aware of how much data they're really using?
    There isn't one mobile OS (modern) that doesn't have some sort of data monitoring on board. If a user doesn't have the wherewithal to learn his/her device's functions and capabilities, they deserve everything coming their way. Particularly if their data plan is very limited. You would think a person with a 1 or 2GB monthly allowance would go out of their way to use and find these monitors to their advantage to avoid overages or data throttling. Once again, not the OEM's responsibility nor should it be. The tools are there to help the end user, I think that's more than enough.
    Last edited by fatclue_98; 02-10-2016 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Serious grammatical flubs.
    02-10-2016 05:13 PM
  2. constantreader16's Avatar
    There isn't one mobile OS (modern) that doesn't have some sort of data monitoring on board. If a user doesn't have the wherewithal to learn his/her device's functions and capabilities, they deserve everything coming their way. Particularly if their data plan is very limited. You would think a person with a 1 or 2GB monthly allowance would go out of their way to use and find these monitors to their advantage to avoid overages or data throttling. Once again, not the OEM's responsibility nor should it be. The tools are there to help the end user, I think that's more than enough.
    But that implies an expectation of everyone being a power user on some level, or at the very least requires them to have a family member or a friend who walks them through everything. You, I, and almost every member of this forum likely is aware of how much data they use, where the data is coming from, how to limit it, etc., etc. However, your grandma, next door neighbor, or any other stranger likely doesn't fully comprehend every aspect of how a cell phone works and what uses all that data. I'm not talking about you or I though, I'm talking about everyday consumers. I'm also not talking about people who can afford 30gb/month data plans. I'm also not saying that Microsoft should block you from using as much cellular data as you want to. What I am saying is that if Microsoft wants to be consumer friendly, their OS and apps, should be as friendly as possible to the average user's data plan.

    Having OneDrive sync photos only over WiFi turned on by default is a great way to do that. The best part of that feature is that you can turn it off if you want to. I 100% agree with what you are saying about the fact that Microsoft shouldn't stop you from using cellular data, but if Microsoft ever wants to appeal to anyone other than power users and super fans, they have to have an OS that is friendly to the consumer, which includes having settings and tools that are generally defaulted to save you on cellular data.

    Imagine if Microsoft suddenly picked up another 20 million average consumers as cell phone users next year, and every single one of them were defaulted to upload photos over cellular, there would be a massive uproar because these people would see unprecedented increases in their data usage. Especially considering that fact that Lumia's generally take much higher megapixel cameras which save much larger files. Lumia phones also do living images which require additional space as well. If someone takes 100 pictures, that's an insane amount of data especially if you add in .dng files.

    For you, that's not an issue, you have a massive data plan. Most people don't have anywhere near that large of a data plan though. You are an anomaly. Maybe not on this forum, but in the larger scale of all smartphone users, the 30gb/month plan you have is not really that common.
    a5cent and libra89 like this.
    02-10-2016 05:37 PM
  3. fatclue_98's Avatar
    For you, that's not an issue, you have a massive data plan. Most people don't have anywhere near that large of a data plan though. You are an anomaly. Maybe not on this forum, but in the larger scale of all smartphone users, the 30gb/month plan you have is not really that common.
    You're confusing me with someone else. I don't have a 30 gig plan because I don't need that much. Also, your presumption that only "power users" are aware of their device's capabilities is irresponsible at best. Not bothering to read the instructions is a surefire way to have something go awfully wrong. Just because a person is poor or doesn't speak a supported language does not make them ignorant or uneducated. Anybody, regardless of economic situation or education, who dives into a product without familiarizing themselves with said device deserves every piece of bad luck that comes their way. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out that way, but to suggest that ordinary folk don't possess the smarts to learn a device foreign to them is teetering on elitism. I didn't know jack about smartphones when I first thought about getting one. I must have spent hours researching what was available at the time (mid-2004ish) before I got my first Palm Treo. I thought it had the features I wanted as compared to Windows Mobile 2003 or Symbian.
    Guytronic, Laura Knotek and tgp like this.
    02-10-2016 06:24 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    In a nutshell, it needs to be a "team" effort, involving both the OS and the user. Just having the ability to monitor cellular data usage isn't enough however, because that can inform users about what is going on only after the fact. Ideally, an OS should help users of all experience levels avoid unintended consequences before they happen (that includes the ignorant who don't read manuals, and have only a fleeting interest in tech, because that describes 90% of consumers), while never restricting users from using their cellular data allowances for any type or size of download they choose.
    I'm not going to say Android's approach is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than what iOS and WP currently offer.
    02-10-2016 06:28 PM
  5. fatclue_98's Avatar
    In a nutshell, it needs to be a "team" effort, involving both the OS and the user. Just having the ability to monitor cellular data usage isn't enough however, because that can inform users about what is going on only after the fact. Ideally, an OS should help users of all experience levels avoid unintended consequences, before they happen, while never restricting users from using their cellular data allowances for any type or size of download they choose.

    I'm not going to say Android's approach is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than what iOS and WP currently offer.
    In W10M and Android's case, the effort has been made. If users aren't going to do their part then we desperately need to save some trees and forgo instruction manuals. Seriously, you can't fix stupid. I think toilet paper is the only product I know of that doesn't come with instructions or any warning labels.
    Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    02-10-2016 06:36 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    If users aren't going to do their part then we desperately need to save some trees and forgo instruction manuals. Seriously, you can't fix stupid.
    Consumers very rarely do "their part". That's why these days, most software integrates the instruction manual into the product. Games are a very good example of that, and consumer OSes try to be similar, but often fail when users dismiss messages unread. Even then (without reading), software is often designed to easily be used correctly and hard to be used incorrectly. Most software developers call this "being user friendly". The whole data limits issue falls into that category too.

    I understand your sentiment. It's just not a realistic expectation. If you asked people with a smartphone how many ever read a manual, you'd get very few positive responses. People just don't, whether we believe that to be stupid doesn't make a difference. Any consumer software that hopes to be successful must make accommodations for that reality.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-13-2016 at 03:00 AM. Reason: spelling
    02-10-2016 06:48 PM
  7. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Consumers very rarely do "their part". That's why these days, most software builds the instruction manual into product. Games are a very good example of that, and consumer OSes try to be similar, but often fail when users dismiss messages unread. Even then (without reading), software is often designed to easily be used correctly and hard to be used incorrectly. Most software developers call this "being user friendly". The whole data limits issue falls into that category too.

    I understand your sentiment. It's just not a realistic expectation. If you asked people with a smartphone how many ever read a manual, you'd get very few positive responses. People just don't, whether we believe that to be stupid doesn't make a difference. Any consumer software that hopes to be successful must accommodate that reality.
    Good ergonomics is essential to good design, I'm all for that. Mess up because you didn't read the instructions, well, here's your sign.
    02-10-2016 07:04 PM
  8. Alain_A's Avatar
    Who's got the time to read the fine print?
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    02-10-2016 07:51 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Who's got the time to read the fine print?
    The same people who littered the early W10 preview threads. Whaaa! Windows broke my phone!! Whaaaa!
    libra89, Guytronic, tgp and 2 others like this.
    02-10-2016 08:05 PM
  10. constantreader16's Avatar
    I'm not trying to come off as elitist, I'm being a realist. I've worked at jobs where I sold cell phones, I've worked at jobs where I've supported cell phones. I've also worked at jobs where I sell or serviced computers. I've designed software. I've done a variety of these things. It's not saying that power users are elitist or anything like that, hell I'm not even sure where you came up with the me being elitist thing at all. I'm saying that most users don't care enough about literally anything to figure out how things work, they just want them to work for them. I've seen this attitude with just about any piece of hardware, software, and operating system you could ever find. This happens everywhere between more power users to the absolute basic users who almost don't know how to turn a device on. People don't want a phone to just have the option to do task A, B, and C for them, they want it to do it for them without asking.

    And to say that not reading every single instructional message or knowing how every feature works means it's the users fault if anything goes wrong, that's just kind of crazy. Yes, Windows 10 comes with a decent amount of instruction with it, but not on every single button and every single layer.

    You know why people love Mac and iPhones so much? Because it just works. You don't have to learn a million different things, the device just works and is incredibly intuitive. People don't love Apple products because you can do a ridiculous amount of stuff with them, they have better hardware, better software, etc. It's because the products simply work.

    Moreover, to expect someone to know every single in and out, every quick, every feature, and every function of every phone they buy is honestly asinine. A phone is supposed to be a phone. Most people probably won't touch half of the true features of the device. On top of that, it's just a piece of technology, there are in general more important things in life than knowing everything there is to know about your phone.

    To me, that's why I enjoy Windows Mobile. It's always done the things I want it to do, and it does them well. It reads out text over the Bluetooth in my car. Live tiles make it easier for me to preview data and news without having to browse through an app, it integrates with Exchange, Office, and OneDrive really well, and it takes really great pictures. I don't need to know every quirk of Windows Hello, I don't need to manage all of the permissions of every app, I don't every single feature that's on the phone, but it's nice to know they are there. And until I need that feature, I don't need to know anything about what it does.
    02-10-2016 09:55 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Good ergonomics is essential to good design, I'm all for that. Mess up because you didn't read the instructions, well, here's your sign.
    I think pretty much anyone that has ever given a course on ergonomic software design would tell us that instruction manuals aren't ergonomic. Instruction manuals are typically a last resort, which developers turn to when all previous attempts at ergonomic software design fail, or when developers feel that a feature is potentially dangerous enough that they must cover their *** (so that we developers can point to something and say "I told you so").

    For some things, like the ToS people agree to when using the insider preview, there probably aren't any decent alternatives to the typical walls of text. WCentral provides daily proof that few read that stuff. For these kinds of things I'm sympathetic to your position because I can't think of a better alternative. I'm not sure one exists.

    However, the issue at hand is unrelated to ToS. It's about how OSes can best support users in making decisions related to cellular data usage and ensure users don't unintentionally (out of ignorance or mistakenly) inflate their cellular data costs. This sort of thing is directly related to everyday use of the device, and for these sorts of problems there are usually hundreds of potential solutions that can all work fine without requiring that users have an in-depth understanding of technology or read instruction manuals. Any solution to that sort of problem, which depends on users willingness to read instruction manuals, just isn't as ergonomic as it could/should be.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-11-2016 at 06:34 AM. Reason: slight improvements and formatting
    02-11-2016 12:49 AM
  12. Theri0n's Avatar
    I am getting to think, that choosing Nadella over Elop was dramatic mistake of MSFT board. Nadella was excellent at his previous position and could continue the success of cloud computing. MSFT was desperate to get at least 10% of the mobile market, but now it's share in sales even lower, than of Nokia. Adding recent layoff in sales department of the mobile division, MSFT suffers significant risks not only at mobile but soon at desktop and nowadays successful cloud market. MSFT is not Nokia, not even Google. MSFT is backbone for global IT industry and it is critical to have presence everywhere. Mobile is especially critical while desktop sales are falling.
    02-12-2016 04:41 AM
  13. SlickShoesRUCrazy's Avatar
    I am getting to think, that choosing Nadella over Elop was dramatic mistake of MSFT board. Nadella was excellent at his previous position and could continue the success of cloud computing. MSFT was desperate to get at least 10% of the mobile market, but now it's share in sales even lower, than of Nokia. Adding recent layoff in sales department of the mobile division, MSFT suffers significant risks not only at mobile but soon at desktop and nowadays successful cloud market. MSFT is not Nokia, not even Google. MSFT is backbone for global IT industry and it is critical to have presence everywhere. Mobile is especially critical while desktop sales are falling.
    Sorry dude or dudette, but following Balmers plans was just going to be a continuous money sink hole. There was no future where Microsoft would gain market share to make money and please investors following Balmers plan if Elop was chosen over Nadella. People don't seem to understand that a publically traded corporation's duties are to shareholders first, not consumers.

    microsoft was late to the party with Windows phone. Balmer wrote off the iPhone and took them 3 years to respond. By the time WP 7 released it was too late. Then they started over again 2 years later with WP 8 which again was them shooting themselves in their foot alienating part of their market.

    Microsoft accepted the failure of Windows Phone and the Nokia acquisition when Nadella wrote it off.

    But hey, there is a bright side. Microsoft isn't going to stop releasing Windows phones. They can't. They need to have a device in the market in order to achieve their philosophy of one unified ecosystem across all device types. Further on the bright side, they are not going to make cheap Lumia phones anymore or they will be strictly for emerging markets. The rumored surface phone is going to be the premium device WP fans have always wanted. Microsoft wants premium devices to showcase their software.

    Microsoft's entire business philosophy has changed and it is time for people to accept this. You are mistaken about Microsoft suffering from significant risks in the global IT industry because that exactly the market they are focusing on. That is why they have pumped billions of dollars in to their cloud infrustructure, Azure. I believe they are as big or bigger than even Amazon AWS now. Further, Microsoft has completely recognized the declining declining desktop sales and mobility being more important. Again why do you think their services are on iOS and Android? Why do you think the investment in premium hardware like surface and surface book and eventually the surface phone most likely? They very much understand the market and where it is going under Nadella. More so than under Balmer and most likely Elop in my opinion.
    RumoredNow, ajayden and libra89 like this.
    02-12-2016 09:14 PM
  14. Josh Harman's Avatar
    Wasn't WP gaining market share under Ballmer?
    02-13-2016 09:01 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Wasn't WP gaining market share under Ballmer?
    Yes, but correlation does not imply causation.
    RumoredNow and Guytronic like this.
    02-14-2016 01:49 AM
  16. Josh Harman's Avatar
    Yes, but correlation does not imply causation.
    But it does for Nadella?
    02-14-2016 11:51 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    But it does for Nadella?
    No.

    I know that it's tempting to blame Nadella for everything, because WP/WM lost market share since Nadella took over. That little factoid is something we can all easily point to, which anyone can grasp without having to understand anything about software technology or WPs strategic market position (during the last two years). In short, it's a nicely wrapped up piece of information that is simple, seems intuitive, and is therefore easily spread. It's also wrong, but that's typically not very important.

    There is no single event or person we could point to that deserves all the blame. WP arrived where it is today through a very long list of poor decisions, bad timing, ineffective strategies and engineering teams having to focus on architectural and development related issues rather then user scenarios. Most of those things occurred long before Nadella became CEO.
    02-15-2016 02:04 AM
  18. giustopio's Avatar
    Ballmer made the legendary wp 8 phones, the phones which made me love the lumia world. I'll always thank him.
    HeyCori and xandros9 like this.
    03-22-2016 04:18 PM
  19. conurus's Avatar
    Maybe Nadella's logic was, what good does it do to catch up to be a distant third in a mature market? He is putting all the hopes on Office.

    I bought a 1020 because I had been a Symbian user, I needed offline maps and a great camera. Behold, even HERE Maps moved to iOS/Android only. I was frustrated but I could see this is a losing battle.

    Nadella said take a couple of years off and re-enter gestation. It was the same as saying a free-falling market share was fine but we needed time to brew something better this time. What worse way to drive apps away than this? Next year, even if something earth-shattering emerges, does it still matter to the mature smartphone market? I am holding a very dim view on the outlook, and I think it is a great loss to the smartphone world. WP had a great new approach to UI, a clean, readable design language with concise, large text, making it very usable. It had a great Continuum story.

    By 2017 or 2018, the only strategy remaining viable is to simply put Intel processors into WP and had them run the full Windows x64. Then consumers will take notice. I don't know if from a business standpoint you'll get even richer by selling Office to Andrioid/iOS which seems to be Nadella's so called strategy, but I had no idea why after more than 30 years MS would start thinking losing grip of the platform was fine. This line of thought was so un-Microsoft. Every time it was unforeseen that something else became the "platform" instead of the OS (of a PC). First we had Google Chrome, then we had iOS and Android. There was not much "platform" left still ruled by MS, but it was obviously non-zero (actually, 14% per their own estimation, which is not bad) and it was strategically wrong to not put what little that remains into some good use.
    03-30-2016 03:05 AM
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