Is MS giving up?

[Laura Knotek]

I don't remember that being the case, but it has been a while since I used WP 8.1. Regardless, having/defaulting/forcing the option to wait for WiFi isn't a bad thing. Data plans aren't always the cheap and overages can be expensive. I'd much prefer it done that way than just automatically sending massive files up over my data plan and draining battery.

Obviously it sounds like you don't prefer that, but I think there would be an overwhelming majority who wouldn't agree with you. I'm not saying you're wrong either, but I'd wager the majority has a different preference.

I have a 30GB/month data plan. Even if I did not, I feel that it is my responsibility to manage my data usage and my responsibility to pay the cost of any overages, not the phone manufacturer's job to limit my usage.

 

[Phillip Tshabalala1]

Whether MS has given up or not on is irrelevant to me now as I've given up. After years of using Windows Phone I'm monitoring the cost of Android devices. I'll rather deal with the adverts on Android then the crashes and degrading of Windows Phone 8.1 to 10. I had so much hope but looking at the smoothness of friends devices, latest trends and local apps availability on Android I realised that I have false hope I Windows 10 Phone. As has been said even the MS Apps on Android and IOS are much better.
I recently dumped Onedrive for Dropbox after I had numerous data losses on Excel due to constant conflicts. Had none on Dropbox regardless of whether I use documents while offline at times. I've had it.

 

[constantreader16]

I have a 30GB/month data plan. Even if I did not, I feel that it is my responsibility to manage my data usage and my responsibility to pay the cost of any overages, not the phone manufacturer's job to limit my usage.

Having a 30GB/month data plan isn't that common. Those plans are expensive and not many people are willing/able to pay for that. My phone allows me to limit that data so I can spend that money else where, as it does the same for many other people. I do get what you're saying, but your reality is an abnormality where as most people either choose or cannot use cellular data that liberally.

 

[fatclue_98]

Having a 30GB/month data plan isn't that common. Those plans are expensive and not many people are willing/able to pay for that. My phone allows me to limit that data so I can spend that money else where, as it does the same for many other people. I do get what you're saying, but your reality is an abnormality where as most people either choose or cannot use cellular data that liberally.

I agree with Laura, manufacturers should not dictate how users manage their data. That's Apple's MO and it seems people want to be led like.......sheep. Pun is 100% intentional.

 

[constantreader16]

I agree with Laura, manufacturers should not dictate how users manage their data. That's Apple's MO and it seems people want to be led like.......sheep. Pun is 100% intentional.

While I agree, the Microsoft approach of defaulting to not using your data plan over Apple's we don't care about your data plan attitude, is much more consumer friendly. Enabling me, and many other users, to save likely 2-3GB of data a month by not automatically uploading pictures over a mobile network is huge. That 3gb is likely $10-$30 a month, which ends up being $120-$360 a month in savings. For the average consumer (I.E. those who cannot afford or choose not to buy a 30gb/month data plan), Microsoft took the right approach.

I do not disagree with having the choice, but the opinion that Microsoft helping to save you money (How dare they!) is a terrible idea is just wrong. Look at the outrage Apple users had when they defaulted iOS to disconnect from bad WiFi networks and automatically use cellular data. That would be 10 times worse press coverage if Microsoft did that.

 

[fatclue_98]

While I agree, the Microsoft approach of defaulting to not using your data plan over Apple's we don't care about your data plan attitude, is much more consumer friendly. Enabling me, and many other users, to save likely 2-3GB of data a month by not automatically uploading pictures over a mobile network is huge. That 3gb is likely $10-$30 a month, which ends up being $120-$360 a month in savings. For the average consumer (I.E. those who cannot afford or choose not to buy a 30gb/month data plan), Microsoft took the right approach.

I do not disagree with having the choice, but the opinion that Microsoft helping to save you money (How dare they!) is a terrible idea is just wrong. Look at the outrage Apple users had when they defaulted iOS to disconnect from bad WiFi networks and automatically use cellular data. That would be 10 times worse press coverage if Microsoft did that.

You should've been here a few years ago when all the ranting was about not having the choice to use cellular data AT ALL! Now we have that choice, but I still maintain it's not the OEM's responsibility.

 

[Laura Knotek]

While I agree, the Microsoft approach of defaulting to not using your data plan over Apple's we don't care about your data plan attitude, is much more consumer friendly.

Apple had caps on data usage when downloading from the App Store. Those were rather restrictive at one time. I know the caps were increased, but they still exist. Hate The 100mb Download Limit - iPhone, iPad, iPod Forums at iMore.com

Android has never had enforced data restrictions.

 

[tgp]

Apple had caps on data usage when downloading from the App Store. Those were rather restrictive at one time. I know the caps were increased, but they still exist. Hate The 100mb Download Limit - iPhone, iPad, iPod Forums at iMore.com

Android has never had enforced data restrictions.

Ideally, the defaults would be as they are, but the user would be given the option to override and use mobile data. That is pretty much how Android does it, and it is perfect for me. I'm on Verizon with an unlimited data plan, and I almost never turn on wifi at all, even at home. My mobile data is faster than the cable at my house. Having the option of downloading and syncing anything and everything with mobile data is what I need.

 

[Laura Knotek]

The other thing that seems silly about some of these OEM-created data caps that cannot be controlled by the user is that it applies even if the user has a data plan that includes mobile hotspot. What's the point of limiting a user to 100 MB downloads from the App Store or requiring the user to wait for WiFi to upload full resolution pictures to OneDrive, when that user already has the capability to use much more data than that when using mobile hotspot?

 

[constantreader16]

You should've been here a few years ago when all the ranting was about not having the choice to use cellular data AT ALL! Now we have that choice, but I still maintain it's not the OEM's responsibility.

It may not be the OEM's responsibility, but how many average users are aware of how much data they're really using? It's not like OEM's have always been good about helping to inform users of that. My argument is not necessarily that nothing should ever go over cellular data, but that the OEMs should have options to help users from using unnecessary amounts of data or using more data than they would prefer to use. Data isn't free and unlimited (in most cases), and as long as that is the case, the OEMs should be consumer friendly and offer ways for the user to manage the data used.

We're way off topic on this thread... haha

 

[fatclue_98]

It may not be the OEM's responsibility, but how many average users are aware of how much data they're really using?

There isn't one mobile OS (modern) that doesn't have some sort of data monitoring on board. If a user doesn't have the wherewithal to learn his/her device's functions and capabilities, they deserve everything coming their way. Particularly if their data plan is very limited. You would think a person with a 1 or 2GB monthly allowance would go out of their way to use and find these monitors to their advantage to avoid overages or data throttling. Once again, not the OEM's responsibility nor should it be. The tools are there to help the end user, I think that's more than enough.

 

[constantreader16]

There isn't one mobile OS (modern) that doesn't have some sort of data monitoring on board. If a user doesn't have the wherewithal to learn his/her device's functions and capabilities, they deserve everything coming their way. Particularly if their data plan is very limited. You would think a person with a 1 or 2GB monthly allowance would go out of their way to use and find these monitors to their advantage to avoid overages or data throttling. Once again, not the OEM's responsibility nor should it be. The tools are there to help the end user, I think that's more than enough.

But that implies an expectation of everyone being a power user on some level, or at the very least requires them to have a family member or a friend who walks them through everything. You, I, and almost every member of this forum likely is aware of how much data they use, where the data is coming from, how to limit it, etc., etc. However, your grandma, next door neighbor, or any other stranger likely doesn't fully comprehend every aspect of how a cell phone works and what uses all that data. I'm not talking about you or I though, I'm talking about everyday consumers. I'm also not talking about people who can afford 30gb/month data plans. I'm also not saying that Microsoft should block you from using as much cellular data as you want to. What I am saying is that if Microsoft wants to be consumer friendly, their OS and apps, should be as friendly as possible to the average user's data plan.

Having OneDrive sync photos only over WiFi turned on by default is a great way to do that. The best part of that feature is that you can turn it off if you want to. I 100% agree with what you are saying about the fact that Microsoft shouldn't stop you from using cellular data, but if Microsoft ever wants to appeal to anyone other than power users and super fans, they have to have an OS that is friendly to the consumer, which includes having settings and tools that are generally defaulted to save you on cellular data.

Imagine if Microsoft suddenly picked up another 20 million average consumers as cell phone users next year, and every single one of them were defaulted to upload photos over cellular, there would be a massive uproar because these people would see unprecedented increases in their data usage. Especially considering that fact that Lumia's generally take much higher megapixel cameras which save much larger files. Lumia phones also do living images which require additional space as well. If someone takes 100 pictures, that's an insane amount of data especially if you add in .dng files.

For you, that's not an issue, you have a massive data plan. Most people don't have anywhere near that large of a data plan though. You are an anomaly. Maybe not on this forum, but in the larger scale of all smartphone users, the 30gb/month plan you have is not really that common.

 

[fatclue_98]

For you, that's not an issue, you have a massive data plan. Most people don't have anywhere near that large of a data plan though. You are an anomaly. Maybe not on this forum, but in the larger scale of all smartphone users, the 30gb/month plan you have is not really that common.

You're confusing me with someone else. I don't have a 30 gig plan because I don't need that much. Also, your presumption that only "power users" are aware of their device's capabilities is irresponsible at best. Not bothering to read the instructions is a surefire way to have something go awfully wrong. Just because a person is poor or doesn't speak a supported language does not make them ignorant or uneducated. Anybody, regardless of economic situation or education, who dives into a product without familiarizing themselves with said device deserves every piece of bad luck that comes their way. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out that way, but to suggest that ordinary folk don't possess the smarts to learn a device foreign to them is teetering on elitism. I didn't know jack about smartphones when I first thought about getting one. I must have spent hours researching what was available at the time (mid-2004ish) before I got my first Palm Treo. I thought it had the features I wanted as compared to Windows Mobile 2003 or Symbian.

 

[a5cent]

In a nutshell, it needs to be a "team" effort, involving both the OS and the user. Just having the ability to monitor cellular data usage isn't enough however, because that can inform users about what is going on only after the fact. Ideally, an OS should help users of all experience levels avoid unintended consequences before they happen (that includes the ignorant who don't read manuals, and have only a fleeting interest in tech, because that describes 90% of consumers), while never restricting users from using their cellular data allowances for any type or size of download they choose.
I'm not going to say Android's approach is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than what iOS and WP currently offer.

 

[fatclue_98]

In a nutshell, it needs to be a "team" effort, involving both the OS and the user. Just having the ability to monitor cellular data usage isn't enough however, because that can inform users about what is going on only after the fact. Ideally, an OS should help users of all experience levels avoid unintended consequences, before they happen, while never restricting users from using their cellular data allowances for any type or size of download they choose.

I'm not going to say Android's approach is the best possible solution, but it's certainly better than what iOS and WP currently offer.

In W10M and Android's case, the effort has been made. If users aren't going to do their part then we desperately need to save some trees and forgo instruction manuals. Seriously, you can't fix stupid. I think toilet paper is the only product I know of that doesn't come with instructions or any warning labels.

 

[a5cent]

If users aren't going to do their part then we desperately need to save some trees and forgo instruction manuals. Seriously, you can't fix stupid.

Consumers very rarely do "their part". That's why these days, most software integrates the instruction manual into the product. Games are a very good example of that, and consumer OSes try to be similar, but often fail when users dismiss messages unread. Even then (without reading), software is often designed to easily be used correctly and hard to be used incorrectly. Most software developers call this "being user friendly". The whole data limits issue falls into that category too.

I understand your sentiment. It's just not a realistic expectation. If you asked people with a smartphone how many ever read a manual, you'd get very few positive responses. People just don't, whether we believe that to be stupid doesn't make a difference. Any consumer software that hopes to be successful must make accommodations for that reality.

 

[fatclue_98]

Consumers very rarely do "their part". That's why these days, most software builds the instruction manual into product. Games are a very good example of that, and consumer OSes try to be similar, but often fail when users dismiss messages unread. Even then (without reading), software is often designed to easily be used correctly and hard to be used incorrectly. Most software developers call this "being user friendly". The whole data limits issue falls into that category too.

I understand your sentiment. It's just not a realistic expectation. If you asked people with a smartphone how many ever read a manual, you'd get very few positive responses. People just don't, whether we believe that to be stupid doesn't make a difference. Any consumer software that hopes to be successful must accommodate that reality.

Good ergonomics is essential to good design, I'm all for that. Mess up because you didn't read the instructions, well, here's your sign.

 

[Alain_A]

Who's got the time to read the fine print?

 

[fatclue_98]

Who's got the time to read the fine print?

The same people who littered the early W10 preview threads. Whaaa! Windows broke my phone!! Whaaaa!

 

[constantreader16]

I'm not trying to come off as elitist, I'm being a realist. I've worked at jobs where I sold cell phones, I've worked at jobs where I've supported cell phones. I've also worked at jobs where I sell or serviced computers. I've designed software. I've done a variety of these things. It's not saying that power users are elitist or anything like that, hell I'm not even sure where you came up with the me being elitist thing at all. I'm saying that most users don't care enough about literally anything to figure out how things work, they just want them to work for them. I've seen this attitude with just about any piece of hardware, software, and operating system you could ever find. This happens everywhere between more power users to the absolute basic users who almost don't know how to turn a device on. People don't want a phone to just have the option to do task A, B, and C for them, they want it to do it for them without asking.

And to say that not reading every single instructional message or knowing how every feature works means it's the users fault if anything goes wrong, that's just kind of crazy. Yes, Windows 10 comes with a decent amount of instruction with it, but not on every single button and every single layer.

You know why people love Mac and iPhones so much? Because it just works. You don't have to learn a million different things, the device just works and is incredibly intuitive. People don't love Apple products because you can do a ridiculous amount of stuff with them, they have better hardware, better software, etc. It's because the products simply work.

Moreover, to expect someone to know every single in and out, every quick, every feature, and every function of every phone they buy is honestly asinine. A phone is supposed to be a phone. Most people probably won't touch half of the true features of the device. On top of that, it's just a piece of technology, there are in general more important things in life than knowing everything there is to know about your phone.

To me, that's why I enjoy Windows Mobile. It's always done the things I want it to do, and it does them well. It reads out text over the Bluetooth in my car. Live tiles make it easier for me to preview data and news without having to browse through an app, it integrates with Exchange, Office, and OneDrive really well, and it takes really great pictures. I don't need to know every quirk of Windows Hello, I don't need to manage all of the permissions of every app, I don't every single feature that's on the phone, but it's nice to know they are there. And until I need that feature, I don't need to know anything about what it does.