08-29-2017 08:34 AM
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  1. slivy58's Avatar
    I think that can be a bit of an issue you can't get around though completely regardless of what OS you're using. If you have a company that sells a tremendous amount of phones then I'm guessing it'll be more likely that you're getting a phone that just off whatever "manufacturing line" the company uses more recently. And with more recent construction etc I'm also guessing the manufacturer will have had time to update the OS. So in other words, if MS produced X amount of phones and sold fewer than expected, then when we're buying them much later there's more for the phone to update.

    So I think that's a two-sided coin in that first of all MS said it's treating W10 as a service, where we're getting more frequent updates that include more features rather than fewer larger updates, and so along with that comes more volume in the actual updates. That's a bad thing if the phone has a lot of catching up to do, but it's a good thing once you're caught up assuming the updates are solid, because you get frequent security updates, bug fixes and new features.

    When I got my Lumia 950 it took a while to get it up to date, but once it was updated it's been more than fine, and it's gotten better with each update.

    And for the future the incremental updates should alleviate this, if I understand it correctly.
    It has nothing to do with the amount of updates but rather how they are implemented, MS approach is severely flawed, time consuming, and requiring way too much intervention from the user. Never thought I'd see a day when their phones took on the same traits as PCs but it has.

    Initial setup and applying 1 update should not take 2+ hours. This DOES NOT include one iota of personalization like tweaking settings, adding accounts, installing our own apps and so on, you know, the part that you'd think would take the longest but of course that is personal taste dependant. In the midst of all that you're constantly notified and required to do so... "your language was just updated, a restart is required", "Glance was just updated, a restart is required", blah blah blah. Sorry, to me that is not advancements in technology in that the process should become faster, more fluid and less painless for the user, MS obviously missed that memo.

    Then we get to the store, yup the store. Updating JUST the pre-installed apps, for me, took several interventions just to get the ball rolling. It took forever for the downloads to initiate, forever to complete, then with more time being spend intervening again because errors during the download process were encountered.

    Been through above scenarios with WP/WM enough times to know it is not a one-off affair and not relegated to just my part of the world.

    Then we compare our old 650 to the new, same builds with only 27 days separating the two, apps that WERE there are no longer and settings menu IS NOT the same. Goes for my 830 running SAME build, different in many ways including areas described. That's what I mean about consistency, MS can't keep things on an even keel which really can be frustrating at times. Just as they "changed direction" in regards to the platform/OS they continue to do so on a regular basis at every turn, that to me indicates they haven't a clue what direction they are headed in.
    01-08-2017 02:16 PM
  2. aximtreo's Avatar
    Yeah, I just wish Windows 10 mobile ran as beautifully solid as the Pixel does. I swear if Microsoft actually did serious investment in w10m it would be top notch. Instead it feels like Microsoft treats Windows phones the same way Apple treats Macs lol.
    Read the front page article on this site today about Windows in 2017. Reading between the lines, it says that development for WM is going in a different direction adding more and more embedded ARM capabilities. I think that the present WM 10 is being beefed up to fix some problems with the new direction in mind. Just my 2 cents. Don't give up.
    01-08-2017 02:51 PM
  3. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Been through above scenarios with WP/WM enough times to know it is not a one-off affair and not relegated to just my part of the world.

    Then we compare our old 650 to the new, same builds with only 27 days separating the two, apps that WERE there are no longer and settings menu IS NOT the same. Goes for my 830 running SAME build, different in many ways including areas described. That's what I mean about consistency, MS can't keep things on an even keel which really can be frustrating at times. Just as they "changed direction" in regards to the platform/OS they continue to do so on a regular basis at every turn, that to me indicates they haven't a clue what direction they are headed in.
    So perhaps it's dependent on what phone you're using then? Because as I said, the only time updating my phone was a big process was when I first got it. It took a long time and required several restarts. To me that indicates the problem I described. After I got up to date it's been smooth, including the last one.
    01-08-2017 03:01 PM
  4. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm sorry but every Android I've had has required a longer time to do its initial updates than any OS. At least Windows updates 2 apps at a time unlike Android which does them one at a time. Also, I never restart every time I'm asked to. I do all my updates and reboot once. Secondly, there's only so much you can ask from a device with only 1GB of RAM. It'll work, but it needs more time. A Kia Soul will run the 1/4 mile, but not as fast as a Corvette. You get what you pay for.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    01-08-2017 03:22 PM
  5. slivy58's Avatar
    I'm sorry but every Android I've had has required a longer time to do its initial updates than any OS. At least Windows updates 2 apps at a time unlike Android which does them one at a time. Also, I never restart every time I'm asked to. I do all my updates and reboot once. Secondly, there's only so much you can ask from a device with only 1GB of RAM. It'll work, but it needs more time. A Kia Soul will run the 1/4 mile, but not as fast as a Corvette. You get what you pay for.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    That hasn't been anywhere near MY experience unless we're talking about the BlackBerry Playbook Do have a few Android/iOS devices with 1GB (or less) of RAM with applying updates/updating apps being a far different outcome for me over WP/WM, less time and the least amount of user input.

    Updates 2 apps! My Android/iOS devices can have 5 apps updated in the time it takes just to initiate the process on WP/WM, seriously it's pathetic. If it has come down to needing a higher-end CPU and more ram to accomplish this feat alone then something ain't right here.

    I'm fully aware something less powerful will struggle more than the higher end, but if I'm seeing similar traits playing out on a W10 PC w/i7/8GB RAM/SSD then something tells me MS got things a little askew, on both mobile and PC, as to the proper way to implement updates... Guess though in this instance, since we got the upgrade to W10 for free, we get what we DIDN'T pay for, here too.
    01-08-2017 05:31 PM
  6. fatclue_98's Avatar
    That hasn't been anywhere near MY experience unless we're talking about the BlackBerry Playbook Do have a few Android/iOS devices with 1GB (or less) of RAM with applying updates/updating apps being a far different outcome for me over WP/WM, less time and the least amount of user input.

    Updates 2 apps! My Android/iOS devices can have 5 apps updated in the time it takes just to initiate the process on WP/WM, seriously it's pathetic. If it has come down to needing a higher-end CPU and more ram to accomplish this feat alone then something ain't right here.

    I'm fully aware something less powerful will struggle more than the higher end, but if I'm seeing similar traits playing out on a W10 PC w/i7/8GB RAM/SSD then something tells me MS got things a little askew, on both mobile and PC, as to the proper way to implement updates... Guess though in this instance, since we got the upgrade to W10 for free, we get what we DIDN'T pay for, here too.
    In MY experience, I've never spent more than 45-60 minutes to set up a new Windows phone from a backup. That includes 640s and other low end phones. I used to dread hard resets but this Idol rips through the process in well under an hour with updates and all. Obviously your mileage has indeed varied.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Guytronic, slivy58 and libra89 like this.
    01-08-2017 05:59 PM
  7. slivy58's Avatar
    In MY experience, I've never spent more than 45-60 minutes to set up a new Windows phone from a backup. That includes 640s and other low end phones. I used to dread hard resets but this Idol rips through the process in well under an hour with updates and all. Obviously your mileage has indeed varied.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    That's another thing with me, not quite sure why but never had all that much luck w/backups on WP. At this point and time we just want to give the 650 an honest go and see how it fairs under daily usage, think if we can achieve that goal without too many hiccups we'll be a relatively happy camper.
    fatclue_98, libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    01-08-2017 07:05 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    That's another thing with me, not quite sure why but never had all that much luck w/backups on WP. At this point and time we just want to give the 650 an honest go and see how it fairs under daily usage, think if we can achieve that goal without too many hiccups we'll be a relatively happy camper.
    That's the spirit!

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    slivy58 and Guytronic like this.
    01-08-2017 07:39 PM
  9. libra89's Avatar
    Maybe I'm just weird but to me, iOS felt like it was the quickest with setup when it comes to a new phone. Android has varied with the phone but it could take just as long as a Windows Phone or be longer.
    slivy58 and Guytronic like this.
    01-08-2017 07:57 PM
  10. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Maybe I'm just weird but to me, iOS felt like it was the quickest with setup when it comes to a new phone. Android has varied with the phone but it could take just as long as a Windows Phone or be longer.
    For the very reasons I mentioned to Elky64 - horsepower. Even the little SE has the A9 chip and iOS has never needed 40GB of RAM to function properly. Any Android without flagship specs will be an exercise in patience. Give Mother Teresa an $80 Blu and she'll make Andrew Dice Clay blush.
    libra89, slivy58 and Guytronic like this.
    01-08-2017 08:12 PM
  11. libra89's Avatar
    For the very reasons I mentioned to Elky64 - horsepower. Even the little SE has the A9 chip and iOS has never needed 40GB of RAM to function properly. Any Android without flagship specs will be an exercise in patience. Give Mother Teresa an $80 Blu and she'll make Andrew Dice Clay blush.
    That's a great point. I do believe you on that.
    fatclue_98 and Guytronic like this.
    01-08-2017 08:22 PM
  12. slivy58's Avatar
    That's the spirit!

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    We've been trying, trust me we have
    fatclue_98 and aximtreo like this.
    01-08-2017 08:25 PM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    In the midst of all that you're constantly notified and required to do so... "your language was just updated, a restart is required", "Glance was just updated, a restart is required", blah blah blah.
    Setting up my 650 wasn't as painful as you described in your post, but I did come across an interesting scenario that applies here. I turned off Touch vibration, and it said a reboot was required. I was quite surprised, to put it mildly!

    I agree with you that setting up a WM device is more hassle than doing the equivalent on iOS or Android. Just getting all updates installed was an exercise in patience!
    slivy58, libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    01-09-2017 12:21 AM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Setting up my 650 wasn't as painful as you described in your post, but I did come across an interesting scenario that applies here. I turned off Touch vibration, and it said a reboot was required. I was quite surprised, to put it mildly!

    I agree with you that setting up a WM device is more hassle than doing the equivalent on iOS or Android. Just getting all updates installed was an exercise in patience!
    In my humblest of opinions, I believe WM is going to become a resource hog like Android requiring lots of RAM to function at a basic level. I'm not a programmer but I believe this cohesiveness with desktop is slowly contributing to the problem. Just look at Facebook, you need 2GB to get it to run. I'm no expert but I don't think ANY app should require that much horsepower. Maybe when x86 on ARM rolls around that may be the case but certainly not now with present hardware. Oh well, it's not like MS hasn't pulled this stunt before.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Laura Knotek, libra89, tgp and 1 others like this.
    01-09-2017 06:21 PM
  15. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    But again, we should separate apps from the OS, the two aren't the same. Google+ and Facebook made my G2X unworkable on Android. I can't blame Google for Facebook's performance, only for that of Google+.

    Of course we could argue that the OS vendor shouldn't allow heavy apps on OS that can't handle it, or on phones that can't handle those OS' or apps, but then we're stuck with a likely lack of progress as apps bloat, or a slower progress, along with complaints not only of that but also aging hardware, neither we can then do anything about.

    In other words, if Facebook is a resource hog I'm not sure that's either Google's or MS' fault. Or Apple's. And then we have to decide if we want to artificially limit what an OS can become based on the resources it would consume. Is that what we want? No? Then we need to just accept that either future OS won't run on smartphone X because it's too old and slow and we get a new phone, or we run the new OS on an old phone and it gets sluggish.

    I just don't see much of a way around this.
    01-09-2017 07:47 PM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    But again, we should separate apps from the OS, the two aren't the same. Google+ and Facebook made my G2X unworkable on Android. I can't blame Google for Facebook's performance, only for that of Google+.

    Of course we could argue that the OS vendor shouldn't allow heavy apps on OS that can't handle it, or on phones that can't handle those OS' or apps, but then we're stuck with a likely lack of progress as apps bloat, or a slower progress, along with complaints not only of that but also aging hardware, neither we can then do anything about.

    In other words, if Facebook is a resource hog I'm not sure that's either Google's or MS' fault. Or Apple's. And then we have to decide if we want to artificially limit what an OS can become based on the resources it would consume. Is that what we want? No? Then we need to just accept that either future OS won't run on smartphone X because it's too old and slow and we get a new phone, or we run the new OS on an old phone and it gets sluggish.

    I just don't see much of a way around this.
    From what I read elsewhere on this site, the Facebook issue is a Microsoft issue having to do with UWP. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    libra89 likes this.
    01-09-2017 08:19 PM
  17. tgp's Avatar
    In my humblest of opinions, I believe WM is going to become a resource hog like Android requiring lots of RAM to function at a basic level.
    Yes, I believe that Android and WM have already switched places. I think WM took that "crown" awhile ago, with W10M.

    As I see it, this hype about W10 on ARM has downsides in resource requirements and security. I don't think it is a good solution to Microsoft's mobile dilemma. But then again, I think it's the fan base hyping it up as Microsoft's answer to mobile more than anything.
    libra89 and fatclue_98 like this.
    01-09-2017 10:58 PM
  18. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    From what I read elsewhere on this site, the Facebook issue is a Microsoft issue having to do with UWP. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
    I searched and found nothing like that.
    01-09-2017 11:40 PM
  19. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    As I see it, this hype about W10 on ARM has downsides in resource requirements and security. I don't think it is a good solution to Microsoft's mobile dilemma. But then again, I think it's the fan base hyping it up as Microsoft's answer to mobile more than anything.
    Obviously full Windows 10 has higher requirements than W10 Mobile. Whether or not that's a downside is debatable. We all want more for less, but sometimes physics just get in the way of that.

    As for it being hype as an answer to some sort of "dilemma" it really isn't I think. IF you can run regular Windows 10 on ARM devices, AND they're powerful enough then you absolutely solve a lot of issues for mobile that non-users repeatedly complain about. The "app-gap" gets turned upside down when you have access to all Windows 10 apps, UWP or not. Obviously, a heavy app that need great hardware will end up in an expensive hardware purchase, but that's beside that point.

    It really is a completely new situation. If you look at the one big competitor in the personal computing space, Apple, you'll see a clear distinction between mobile devices with OSX and those with iOS. The device types are very different. Everything I've seen MS say about mobile's future, including the Surface department's general views on innovation (or development), tells me that MS wants to get users to use MS Windows 10 along with the surrounding ecosystem, regardless of device form factor and functionality. So, it seems they want to streamline it all so that you experience Windows 10 on any device you use, regardless of how you input data and get it back. So what we've been stuck with so far is that as device sizes hit a certain 'smallness' we move from x86 to ARM, because of power consumption and radio. And then we've just gotten used to that being on tablets and smartphones. Now, rather than having to make a decision about whether to shove an iOS or OSX CPU into a tablet-size device like Apple 'has to', a maker of an ARM device can choose to put Windows 10 on it. Period. They can market it any way they want, but it's a Windows 10 device.

    So Windows 10 Mobile, in my opinion, still has a place here. For less horsepower consuming apps and longer batter life etc a smaller lighter OS makes sense, to me at least. And then it scales seamlessly across the eco system as you switch devices.....
    01-09-2017 11:51 PM
  20. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    "batter life".... lol....
    xandros9 likes this.
    01-09-2017 11:54 PM
  21. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Obviously, a heavy app that need great hardware will end up in an expensive hardware purchase, but that's beside that point.
    Actually, I think that IS the point. The Elite x3 is not moving the needle one iota (according to AdDuplex) and it's not even going to be able to run W10 on ARM when it eventually comes out. Many consider the device too expensive as is so imagine what will happen to our lowly numbers when really expensive hardware will be required.
    01-10-2017 12:04 AM
  22. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Actually, I think that IS the point. The Elite x3 is not moving the needle one iota (according to AdDuplex) and it's not even going to be able to run W10 on ARM when it eventually comes out. Many consider the device too expensive as is so imagine what will happen to our lowly numbers when really expensive hardware will be required.
    The point of Windows 10 on ARM is that you can run Windows 10 on ARM. People not buying a Windows 10 Mobile device because it's too expensive is a completely different issue. It says nothing about what people want to pay for a Windows 10 (non-"Mobile") device running ARM.

    So, as an example; suppose you have a user that is happy using bluetooth headsets for listening to music and talking to people. Now, this person doesn't mind a very large screen. In the Apple ecosystem, large screen that isn't a laptop means tablet, an iPad. Still need a phone though, which in turn means iPhone. Pretty expensive. Suppose the person also needs OSX because of some OSX-specific software. Three devices now. But for those users that are wiling to pay for two, or even three devices, but really want a large screen that's close to tablet size (perhaps foldable), but with cellphone capability, and preferably also the ability to run a desktop app, for those users an all-in-one smaller form factor mobile device will make complete sense.

    So rather than get a Lumia 950 for like $400, a tablet for $500, and a laptop for $1000, you'd get that smaller device which does it all (with compromises). At that point it could cost you $1,200, and you'd still be saving $700 relatively speaking. Know what I mean? So that's why you can't compare the two.

    It'd be like saying that people are upset over the iPhone being expensive so they wouldn't buy one that ran OSX. Apples and oranges.
    01-10-2017 01:29 AM
  23. Joe920's Avatar
    I just discovered that force touch on the iPhone keyboard turns it into "move cursor". Awesome! Super zippy. It's way more convenient than the pretty clever WP joystick/trackpoint in the keyboard.
    02-18-2017 05:46 PM
  24. Joe920's Avatar
    Now that I own a 6S+ I guess I'll just keep going with little OS differences that I notice.

    Here's one: on iOS when you clear a text message notification from the lock screen, it actually marks the message as read, and removes the corresponding 'badge' counter on the icon. On WP the unread counter doesn't budge, and the message still shows unread iirc.
    Laura Knotek and libra89 like this.
    02-19-2017 11:05 AM
  25. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Now that I own a 6S+ I guess I'll just keep going with little OS differences that I notice.

    Here's one: on iOS when you clear a text message notification from the lock screen, it actually marks the message as read, and removes the corresponding 'badge' counter on the icon. On WP the unread counter doesn't budge, and the message still shows unread iirc.
    From what I can tell from memory, that's actually not necessarily a bad thing (for me at least).

    While it could be practically annoying to have things marked unread if you feel like you've read them, to me it actually makes sense in some cases because the lock-screen notification message isn't the entire message. Same with the drop-down menu. Clearing the listed new messages there, including emails, won't mark them read, and it makes sense since in a lot of cases my emails are far longer than the preview that is shown.

    So from that standpoint it makes sense. To me. Unless I misunderstood something or am remembering incorrectly.
    02-19-2017 02:41 PM
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