11-28-2017 12:55 AM
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  1. TgeekB's Avatar
    It just seems like not a day goes by that you don't hear about a developer closing up shop on the Windows Store. Yes, there are a lot of apps on the store, but how many of those are quality apps? How many of those are knock-off alternatives that don't work as well? You could ask the same for the rest, but I would say the ratio of good to bad apps are much better on Google, Amazon, and Apple than they are on Windows. And even if they are the same apps as the other platforms, they tend to run better because they are spending development funding on them. That money is coming from app purchases.

    It may not be the best solution, but they have to do something to shore up the store and give people more reason to pick up a Windows phone when comparing it to an Android or iOS device. Paying them off up front may not be the best or the right answer, but a deal has to be made somewhere to get them to even consider coming to the Windows Store. You're absolutely right, one or two apps is not going to do it. They need to improve the overall health of the store with high quality apps across the board. If you don't even have the user base to guarantee sales of apps, you have to get creative to sell the developers on Windows. It's the chicken and the egg problem. Which comes first, the users or the apps? No one's going to buy your devices if you can't do anything with them other than basic functions, and no developer is going to design an app for your device if no one is there to buy it.

    In my opinion, Windows is a better platform. As I've said elsewhere, I love my Nokia Lumia. I've had it for over three years now and it's the most stable phone I've ever owned. I have had essentially zero issues with it. It's been supported up to this point and I see no reason why that support should stop given the specs of my phone until something like Windows on ARM is on a telephony device and becomes the norm. But with the limited list of devices for the Creator's Update, I've come to the realization that I'm going to have to make a decision very soon.
    They're not going to do anything to convince people who think they need a bunch of apps to come to WP. That ship has sailed. Those of us who are left are more basis, business focused people who aren't on a million social apps, etc. Everything works perfectly for me and I thoroughly enjoy the OS and how I interact with it. MS is developing for the future and people need to accept that or spend their time on her complaining about something they have no control over which seems silly to me. If we have patience, I believe things will look quite nice soon.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    fatclue_98 and Laura Knotek like this.
    04-22-2017 02:11 PM
  2. Iain_S's Avatar
    for me now to return to windows mobile anything, they would have to have killer devices but more importantly they would have to have a very strong developer following and commitment out of the gate with major devs. anything less would be just a waste of time.
    Guytronic likes this.
    04-22-2017 05:17 PM
  3. Player Piano's Avatar
    04-22-2017 05:27 PM
  4. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    That rumored device above, if heavily advertised by both MS and Samsung, might turn a corner for us W10M hopefuls. They'd have to drop the price, though. It surely couldn't sell many at the same price point as the Android version. I'd be really interested in it, though.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    04-22-2017 05:54 PM
  5. Guytronic's Avatar
    Samsung exploring all avenues after the Note 7 thing.
    Still just a rumor though.
    04-22-2017 06:17 PM
  6. buzzard75's Avatar
    It would certainly be a nice device to run Windows on. Samsung device quality is top notch, with a couple exceptions of course. But again, if you want to sell a shload of devices and increase your market share, you have to have something other than a device that's already available with another popular OS on it that already has huge dev support in order to entice people to buy it. Yeah, everyone who's a Windows fan is probably going to buy it so they'll sell a lot of them that way, but that's not going to increase their market share. What about everyone else that has an Android or an iPhone? Why would they bother to switch? Microsoft has to catch up with dev support or the device and OS has to be able to do something critical that no other phone/OS in the world can do.
    RumoredNow likes this.
    04-22-2017 06:50 PM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    It would certainly be a nice device to run Windows on. Samsung device quality is top notch, with a couple exceptions of course. But again, if you want to sell a shload of devices and increase your market share, you have to have something other than a device that's already available with another popular OS on it that already has huge dev support in order to entice people to buy it. Yeah, everyone who's a Windows fan is probably going to buy it so they'll sell a lot of them that way, but that's not going to increase their market share. What about everyone else that has an Android or an iPhone? Why would they bother to switch? Microsoft has to catch up with dev support or the device and OS has to be able to do something critical that no other phone/OS in the world can do.
    But if it makes current WM users happy and gives them something to purchase they feel is equal to their counterparts, isn't that a good thing? How can it hurt?

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-22-2017 07:10 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Samsung exploring all avenues after the Note 7 thing.
    Still just a rumor though.
    Two new tablets coming out now as well. Maybe Samsung has struck some kind of deal with Microsoft to get away from that whole "Note 7 thing". Tizen wasn't the ticket they were looking for to lessen the reliance on Google so we never know. W10M is certainly a more mature OS than Tizen and Microsoft is a known commodity.
    04-22-2017 07:33 PM
  9. Iain_S's Avatar
    even if this rumour were true that Samsung release this device it will suffer the same problems that all other windows phones suffer at the moment, absolutely no apps compared to other platforms. If MS have any chance of getting into the game again they need a solid commitment from devs and apps available at launch. If they don't have the apps that ios or android have it will just be another failure.
    04-22-2017 08:06 PM
  10. TgeekB's Avatar
    even if this rumour were true that Samsung release this device it will suffer the same problems that all other windows phones suffer at the moment, absolutely no apps compared to other platforms. If MS have any chance of getting into the game again they need a solid commitment from devs and apps available at launch. If they don't have the apps that ios or android have it will just be another failure.
    Yah, I'm sure they can just call up a few thousand devs and get them to whip up some apps in a couple months.
    If true, this is more than about just one phone. I'm more interested in a possible partnership moving into the future.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    Drael646464 likes this.
    04-22-2017 08:13 PM
  11. tgp's Avatar
    Samsung exploring all avenues after the Note 7 thing.
    Still just a rumor though.
    Reports are that the GS8/+ pre-orders have been higher than pre-orders of previous models. While manufacturers are always looking for ways to increase sales, I don't think Samsung is hurting in that respect.
    Guytronic and libra89 like this.
    04-22-2017 08:20 PM
  12. Guytronic's Avatar
    Reports are that the GS8/+ pre-orders have been higher than pre-orders of previous models. While manufacturers are always looking for ways to increase sales, I don't think Samsung is hurting in that respect.
    Well yes it does make sense that sales for a new phone from Samsung would be higher after a downturn.
    I'll say a 5 billion dollar loss to the company had to sting a little bit.
    libra89 and slivy58 like this.
    04-22-2017 08:48 PM
  13. slivy58's Avatar
    But if it makes current WM users happy and gives them something to purchase they feel is equal to their counterparts, isn't that a good thing? How can it hurt?

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    It'd be awesome for the present users but IMO, that's about it. Can't say it'll hurt either but on the other hand, highly doubtful it'll make a dent in the platforms already tainted image. For me personally, it's going to be years before I put my trust back in MS and the WM field.
    04-22-2017 08:58 PM
  14. buzzard75's Avatar
    But if it makes current WM users happy and gives them something to purchase they feel is equal to their counterparts, isn't that a good thing? How can it hurt?
    Not saying it wouldn't make current WM users happy or that it could hurt. I just don't know how much it's really going to help or be enough to keep current users. My point is, if you're not attracting new users or even able to keep the ones you have, you're not going to grow your market share. There's a saying. If you're not growing, you're dying. Granted, you can still be profitable and not grow, but the tech business is too competitive. If you're not growing your market share, you're probably losing it because everyone else is growing and their increase has to come from somewhere.
    slivy58 likes this.
    04-22-2017 09:15 PM
  15. slivy58's Avatar
    If true, this is more than about just one phone. I'm more interested in a possible partnership moving into the future.
    Samsung was in the game before (Ativ S/SE, Omnia M, etc etc), who's to say that won't fizzle again in short order? Besides, anything introduced now will be dealt the same cards as those already in existence. And the future, that's only a millisecond away, and after seeing MSFT's idea of the future we came to the realization that we may never see it where WM is concerned.
    04-22-2017 09:23 PM
  16. slivy58's Avatar
    Not saying it wouldn't make current WM users happy or that it could hurt. I just don't know how much it's really going to help or be enough to keep current users. My point is, if you're not attracting new users or even able to keep the ones you have, you're not going to grow your market share. There's a saying. If you're not growing, you're dying. Granted, you can still be profitable and not grow, but the tech business is too competitive. If you're not growing your market share, you're probably losing it because everyone else is growing and their increase has to come from somewhere.
    Ditto on this... Also don't see Enterprise being a saviour either. Would you want to depend on the platform in it's present state to support your company, I sure wouldn't?
    04-22-2017 09:37 PM
  17. libra89's Avatar
    Samsung exploring all avenues after the Note 7 thing.
    Still just a rumor though.
    Rubino shut it down on Twitter, said that it was "wishful thinking" basically



    dan.png

    https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rubino/st...54849002545152
    04-22-2017 09:44 PM
  18. Guytronic's Avatar
    Rubino shut it down on Twitter, said that it was "wishful thinking" basically
    Yoop...
    The other rumor link from that "Win Central" site looked slightly suspect also.
    libra89 and Scienceguy Labs like this.
    04-22-2017 09:49 PM
  19. libra89's Avatar
    Yoop...
    The rumor from that "Win Central" site looked slightly suspect.
    Agreed. I get the hope but it's hard to put in so much into one like that. Glad he commented on it.
    Guytronic likes this.
    04-22-2017 09:53 PM
  20. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    If only a reputable company would release a phone with dual operating systems. Android on the mobile side and full Windows on the other, or both W10M and Android. I'm not talking about the Chinese OEMs like Chuwi and Cube. I want a real mobile player. They are ok, but updating devices from those companies is a painful experience. Maybe even Microsoft could release a 6 to 7 inch mobile PC running both. A man can dream...
    libra89 and RumoredNow like this.
    04-22-2017 10:30 PM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    It just seems like not a day goes by that you don't hear about a developer closing up shop on the Windows Store. Yes, there are a lot of apps on the store, but how many of those are quality apps? How many of those are knock-off alternatives that don't work as well? You could ask the same for the rest, but I would say the ratio of good to bad apps are much better on Google, Amazon, and Apple than they are on Windows. And even if they are the same apps as the other platforms, they tend to run better because they are spending development funding on them. That money is coming from app purchases.

    It may not be the best solution, but they have to do something to shore up the store and give people more reason to pick up a Windows phone when comparing it to an Android or iOS device. Paying them off up front may not be the best or the right answer, but a deal has to be made somewhere to get them to even consider coming to the Windows Store. You're absolutely right, one or two apps is not going to do it. They need to improve the overall health of the store with high quality apps across the board. If you don't even have the user base to guarantee sales of apps, you have to get creative to sell the developers on Windows. It's the chicken and the egg problem. Which comes first, the users or the apps? No one's going to buy your devices if you can't do anything with them other than basic functions, and no developer is going to design an app for your device if no one is there to buy it.

    In my opinion, Windows is a better platform. As I've said elsewhere, I love my Nokia Lumia. I've had it for over three years now and it's the most stable phone I've ever owned. I have had essentially zero issues with it. It's been supported up to this point and I see no reason why that support should stop given the specs of my phone until something like Windows on ARM is on a telephony device and becomes the norm. But with the limited list of devices for the Creator's Update, I've come to the realization that I'm going to have to make a decision very soon.
    Can you provide an example of a developer closing up shop in the windows store?

    I see a lot of developers coming to the windows store (kodi, evernote, facebook, Instagram, leo's fortune etc etc), and the store has definately gotten much bigger and better over the last two years or so numerically, and to my eye, so perhaps you could fill me in?

    PS, the amazon store IS NOT better than the windows store. Go have a look, and see how much is missing. Amazon devices sell because of price, not because of the app offerings, which these days are quite poor. I've used it quite a bit, because I have a BB10 phone.

    MS is addressing the apps problem by pushing itself on markets where it has strength - tablets, hybrids and laptops, into those budget markets this year via windows on arm, and windows cloud. If it can capture significant tablet marketshare for example, and gain some ground with windows cloud, both will expand the userbase of windows store users.

    You can't really artificial create economies. "stimulus" as governments perform is sometimes ineffective, sometimes effective, and is extremely expensive.

    What MS has is an area where there are real growth possibilities - tablets. The only two areaa where there is growth in tablets is budget, and windows. Samsung and Apple have both had negative growth for years of quarters in a row. Hence, windows on ARM being a great, smart move -ultra-cheap windows tablets, a FF where the app gap doesn't matter because of win32 apps (which in many cases are more powerful than android apps, such as the adobe suite, games or oracle).

    This is why one of the surface versions is rumoured to be ARM, not intel. It'll be a budget version. Possibly a cheap surfacebook too?

    By positioning windows in both growth sectors, it opens up the possibility of a "tablet coupe"

    Windows cloud on the other hand is another market, education, where windows has ceded 50% to ChromeOS. Budget tablets have lost MS ground. Windows cloud will run entirely on the windows store, offering upgradability to full windows, stylus/ink, and touch screen ability, and hybrid designs as strong points of difference.

    If it could capture both these markets, windows store would be strong. It would even be strong in areas related to phones, like chat programs, because all these devices are cellular PCs - they can send texts, make phone calls, give GPS, become hotspots.

    The other area where microsofts strategy addresses this problem of apps, is by ceding them. The bot intergration into Cortana will create a conversational "skills" ecosystem, MS's conversation as a platform. You see conversation changes a lot of things. Current touch ecosystems will be much less useful, if people mainly use voice. And by outsourcing all that to developers, microsofts bot system already being more popular than facebook's bot system, Cortana will be able to do a lot of things we use apps for - order a cab, find a hotel, send a message, make a call etc.

    And the other thing MS has in place is its co-development of flexibile OLED with Samsung. That might be a few years off, versus all three above which will be released this year, but when it also comes, it also allows win32 legacy apps in the pocket, by having large screens in the pocket - a FF where windows is doing well, tablets. Interestingly, Nadella didn't even put that one in place, it was balmer. But it works just as well to address MS's app issues, and "create the next big thing"

    There's just no easy way to save a failing product like windows 10 mobile. It's even harder to convince shareholders to even try, given it will generally be perceived as burning money. Fortunately for MS, there is a way to expand the store, and UWP. A way to leverage into mobile, by capturing larger cellular PC devices, and leveraging desktop. It's a play they have been executing, and planning for years.

    If you go look at the windows store, right now, you'll see it is themed with education apps. Theres an education section at the bottom, that is extremely repleat with education apps. And the ones on display like earth 3d, anatomy, the space one - are of very high quality. So how did all that happen, a few weeks out from the announcement of windows cloud huh....

    There's plenty going on at MS, they just don't telegraph their moves to their opponents. That would not be smart. And if they were any other company, they would have dropped windows 10 mobile like a stone. The fact they are keeping the platform on ice, keeping it on life support, shows they think that windows has a future in mobile devices - but they cannot afford to spend money on it right now, when there are important battles to win on the way having a real shot at pocket cellular devices.

    You must keep in mind too, when markets reach saturation as smartphones will, they experience a shift toward budget, a lowering of margings, and a gutting of premium products. Every company that exists is also looking for the next big thing. Amazon has an assistant, Samsung has an assistant, google, apple. Apples new phone has augmented reality features. Its only "the next big thing" that will drive the next wave of mass consumer adoption and thus the next wave of abundant profits. Smartphones as much as it may not seem that way to consumers, are already strongly slowing, even going negative in mature markets - we are not far from a time where selling iphones and s8's as a business model isn't going to be enough to make you a tech giant.

    So indeed apps as currrently realised could/will also one day be a thing of the past. They are small screen focused, touch focused, not voice intergrated. I have little doubt if you sent the current app ecosystem five years, or ten years into the future, it might be considered pretty much useless. They are powerful in the meantime, but what you want isn't just apps, and it's not even just developers - its a market. And the only way to have a market is to have a moat - a product point of difference that sells your product.

    MS is working on that via multiple angles. If you don't have the patience to see how that plays out, or you want a new phone, by all means buy a Samsung or a blackberry android. All good by me. But all this armchair CEO'ing by embittered phone users is just a bit OTT in my mind. Go to crackberry and see what a REALLY abandoned OS looks like, with no new handsets, and no updates for anyone. And there you'll see loads of people saying "how blackberry should save bb10". Crowdfunding and alls sorts is discussed. But of course most of those people couldn't run a business to save their lives - I have a small business, and I would be utterly lost as the CEO of Microsoft.

    You can't really be mad at MS, given they still seem to have plans for mobile, and still support it. Yes, its on life support, but if it was any other company it'd be dead. This is a company with vision - they have no given up on mobile, they are just fighting their way to it via a bunch of other strategies.

    If you want a new phone- BB hub is great for MS intergration, and buying a Samsung Microsoft edition is more or less supporting MS too to a small degree. Plus Samsung like MS is a google competitor, and they are inclined to work with MS to dethrone google - hence bixgy, their watch OS and all the other google rivalling products they have, and all the work with MS they do. You could also go apple, ios has great quality software, better than google (although its a forced closed system, that sometimes doesn't give you options you want)
    04-22-2017 10:43 PM
  22. Drael646464's Avatar
    Yah, I'm sure they can just call up a few thousand devs and get them to whip up some apps in a couple months.
    If true, this is more than about just one phone. I'm more interested in a possible partnership moving into the future.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    I think Samsung and MS have probably had this partnership in the works for awhile. If Samsung is returning to windows phones, it's likely because things like windows cloud, windows on arm, and Cortana bot intergration are coming to fruition - Ie there will be some momentum to ride.

    It seems quite possible given Samsung and microsofts close relationship, and samsungs desire to compete with google. We will see, but at some point I expect Samsung will jump more onboard, even if its when graphene OLED comes to market.

    You also have to look at the fact that MS helped Samsung with DeX. It could be a tit for tat deal. Microsoft also streamlined making roms for android phones with the mi4, so its possible they have made the process easier.

    Last but not least, the s8 has the 835. 835 is the chipset that runs can run WoA. And the s8 already has docking peripherals for DeX. Could be a very specific desire of Samsung to push the iPhone out of enterprise.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-22-2017 at 11:59 PM.
    04-22-2017 11:12 PM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    Reports are that the GS8/+ pre-orders have been higher than pre-orders of previous models. While manufacturers are always looking for ways to increase sales, I don't think Samsung is hurting in that respect.
    They've had at least three quarters of lost growth. Mostly lost to apple, like in the US.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 04-23-2017 at 12:13 AM.
    04-22-2017 11:57 PM
  24. Drael646464's Avatar
    Rubino shut it down on Twitter, said that it was "wishful thinking" basically
    I've a few thoughts on that, if his list is legit -

    1) Could it not be like the mi4, where its officially supported, but not shipped with windows 10? We've had literally no word, on why MS did that with xiaomi, or what they plan for the whole "windows 10 on android devices as a ROM" angle.

    2) If he has a list of upcoming phones - come on, spill the beans!

    3) If its on the snapdragon 835, it could be windows 10 on arm, and thus both top secret, and not in a list of "windows 10 mobile" devices.

    4) This talk of insiders than dan relies on, reminds me somewhat of conspiracy theorists channels - is that any more reliable than Chinese rumours? (which turn out to be wrong and right in roughly equal proportion) I mean alex jones and david Wilcock have "insiders".

    May 6th or whatever is close. We should definitely get the windows cloud announcement (and we get windows on arm later this year, and likely Cortana bots), so its hardly going to be a fizzle of a year for windows, its a big year, it should be exciting! :)

    I ain't going to be replacing my phone until the paradigm shifts more anyway. My phone does everything I need it to. If anything I'll be looking to the new ARM tablets....
    04-23-2017 12:05 AM
  25. libra89's Avatar
    I've a few thoughts on that, if his list is legit -

    1) Could it not be like the mi4, where its officially supported, but not shipped with windows 10? We've had literally no word, on why MS did that with xiaomi, or what they plan for the whole "windows 10 on android devices as a ROM" angle.

    2) If he has a list of upcoming phones - come on, spill the beans!

    3) If its on the snapdragon 835, it could be windows 10 on arm, and thus both top secret, and not in a list of "windows 10 mobile" devices.

    4) This talk of insiders than dan relies on, reminds me somewhat of conspiracy theorists channels - is that any more reliable than Chinese rumours? (which turn out to be wrong and right in roughly equal proportion) I mean alex jones and david Wilcock have "insiders".

    May 6th or whatever is close. We should definitely get the windows cloud announcement (and we get windows on arm later this year, and likely Cortana bots), so its hardly going to be a fizzle of a year for windows, its a big year, it should be exciting! :)

    I ain't going to be replacing my phone until the paradigm shifts more anyway. My phone does everything I need it to. If anything I'll be looking to the new ARM tablets....
    2) He's not going to do that, that's not his style. He might hint to some of them in time but that's about it.

    4) It's more reliable than Chinese rumors since he actually has Microsoft contacts, just like Zac Bowden, and Mary Jo Foley do, along with some others.

    Edit: Additionally Dan is usually on the money, unless a feature is dropped or scrapped last minute which has happened.
    Guytronic likes this.
    04-23-2017 12:42 AM
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