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07-30-2017 12:04 PM
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  1. techiez's Avatar
    Coloured me puzzled by that response.

    No, they already exist?

    I was talking about a folding tablet. But the tech for that basically already exists, in the form of dual screen based laptops.

    If anything its the software of such a device where most of the innovation would happen IMO

    Unless one is talking flexible screens, or a creaseless design. In which case the tech already exists for that too, but its too expensive for everyday consumers.

    But there's no reason why the first folding tablets couldn't have creases. The westworld show ones do. And people still wow about them. The UI is just divided well across the screens, incorporating the creases.
    Well yes the tech exists but still as I mentioned its years away, Samsung is expert in displays and it first showed a creaseless foldable display prototype in 2011 and still couldn't get a device to consumers utilizing the same, there are supposedly production issues with the prototypes that Samsung is working on. I dont see MS beating Samsung to market with such a phone, though I want it happen.
    07-05-2017 11:09 PM
  2. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well yes the tech exists but still as I mentioned its years away, Samsung is expert in displays and it first showed a creaseless foldable display prototype in 2011 and still couldn't get a device to consumers utilizing the same, there are supposedly production issues with the prototypes that Samsung is working on. I dont see MS beating Samsung to market with such a phone, though I want it happen.
    Creaseless displays use graphene. Graphene is currently very expensive to produce. Samsung and microsofts dual development/co-patent of this creaseless screen tech design (forget the tm name) was as you mentioned demo'd years ago. I believe it was 2013?

    Could be 2011 I suppose, but I recall their co-announcement of the scroll proto being 2013, with it running windows 8.
    Of course Samsung got the most attention for this co-development and co-announcement, and went on to use it, as the basis for their practically useless curved screen design, which amusing people really liked. So much so, if you search this in youtube now, all you can really find is samsungs half of the announcement (which does show windows 8 on the proto, but no Microsoft portion of the speech)

    There have since been a few other companies demoing flexible OLED graphene screens. I don't think it will be a matter of any individual company being wildly 'first to market". A number of companies _can_ make such a thing, but they don't because it makes no economic sense.

    Graphene of course has many more scientific applications than screens. I can be used for bullet proofing, circuit boards, battery tech, chemical manuracture, water and other purification, super materials, spaceships, nano-manufacturing. The creation of low cost graphene will be a technological revolution.

    But its not here yet. Likely the first, slightly cheaper, creaseless folding/scrolling will be like the first mobile phones - so expensive as to be primarily for high end enterprise and the elite.

    I can see a case there for such devices being, like the patent, a co-development between MS and Samsung. It's the sort of product one would want major press on, shared risk/investment, and premium status. Or at least running windows makes more sense than android. Ultra-elite business users won't get much productivity benefit from a folding android tablet, after all, and people are unlikely to spend that kind of money on a slightly more portable Netflix!

    It will take that initial high expense product, like the original cell phones, to slowly reduce manufacturing costs, via scale and incremental improvements. It won't be a consumer product any time soon, barring some technological miracle. As such, it seems more logic its in MSFTs ballpark IMO.
    Certainly such a device could run DeX, but I think the real product will be running full windows 10, with the arm emu - which is probably what MSFT is cooking up with "Andromeda", a melting point between win10m and win on arm for folding devices.

    After all, such an expensive might be justified for running oracle, adobe products, office 365, accounting software, and a full suite of business applications, but snapchat or pokemon go is not really anywhere in the picture.

    I guess in a way, for all the hype around AR, it'll probably be similar for awhile - its main benefit to enterprise and other people with big pockets, until production methods can improve it down to consumer scale. For an enterprise user, or in medicine, AR makes a lot of sense - even with a high expense. However we are not seeing any immediate examples of a similar quality consumer product, and given the complexities of projecting light into the eye, FoV, latency and such, I don't think we will for a long time. Maybe something lower grade.

    Regardless, creaseless tech is not needed for a folding screen design. You simply need a hinge that creates a relatively low profile crease, and a UI, that is optimized to mostly conceal that crease (the tablets on westworld are a great example - they are all creased designs, but you don't notice because the UI is designed to hide it)

    If you look at some pics of the oft-touted future tech, the westworld tablets, you'll see they have creases. They are not some far off graphene tech, merely folding devices that are very thin, and have low profile hinge creases, with a UI design to hide those creases.

    It makes a lot of sense to make such a product, from very achievable and inexpensive existing technologies, as a development platform for a folding scaling OS of the future. Plus the OS end, requires a fair bit of development, more that slapping two screens together with a fancy hinge in likelihood. It's an enabling tech - it allows for development of the software of that eventual creaseless design, and later consumer product.

    People might object to the idea of a crease all they like, but it's doubtful anyone much will be willing to pony up the many thousands an all graphene screen would cost.

    Even if MSFT or whomever was working on a scrolling or creaseless design - it still wouldn't be for consumers.

    The small proto, that Samsung demo'd in 2011/13/whenever cost several tens of thousands of dollars. 50,000? 40,000? Something in that ballpark.

    Mass manufacture would reduce that very little, and the cost of graphene production hasn't really changed, despite one person starting to build a plant for it.

    Even if they created a folding screen tech where only the hinge part was graphene based, or they significantly reduced the cost of graphene - it would likely costs many thousands at the RRP, probably 5+ thousand. Somewhere in the realm of a cheap car.

    That's not the sort of money consumers will spend for portable entertainment devices, generally speaking.

    Actually I don't think such tech is that far off either. Probably 3-5 years. But when it comes it will still cost A LOT. This is not the new iPhone. Its the new 80s mobile phone/90s palmpilot long before it will slowly morph into the new iPhone.

    The other element to consider is the fact that CPUs, circuits and batteries can all be built theoretically into transparent graphene substrates. So the ultimate evolution is probably something more like "computer paper", created by nano-manufacturing processes. But that's an even longer journey.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 07-06-2017 at 12:37 AM.
    nate0 likes this.
    07-06-2017 12:10 AM
  3. Charis Ntouroutlis's Avatar
    Originally posted by Drael646464
    Originally Posted by techiez
    Well yes the tech exists but still as I mentioned its years away, Samsung is expert in displays and it first showed a creaseless foldable display prototype in 2011 and still couldn't get a device to consumers utilizing the same, there are supposedly production issues with the prototypes that Samsung is working on. I dont see MS beating Samsung to market with such a phone, though I want it happen.
    Creaseless displays use graphene. Graphene is currently very expensive to produce. Samsung and microsofts dual development/co-patent of this creaseless screen tech design (forget the tm name) was as you mentioned demo'd years ago. I believe it was 2013?

    Could be 2011 I suppose, but I recall their co-announcement of the scroll proto being 2013, with it running windows 8.
    Of course Samsung got the most attention for this co-development and co-announcement, and went on to use it, as the basis for their practically useless curved screen design, which amusing people really liked. So much so, if you search this in youtube now, all you can really find is samsungs half of the announcement (which does show windows 8 on the proto, but no Microsoft portion of the speech)

    There have since been a few other companies demoing flexible OLED graphene screens. I don't think it will be a matter of any individual company being wildly 'first to market". A number of companies _can_ make such a thing, but they don't because it makes no economic sense.

    Graphene of course has many more scientific applications than screens. I can be used for bullet proofing, circuit boards, battery tech, chemical manuracture, water and other purification, super materials, spaceships, nano-manufacturing. The creation of low cost graphene will be a technological revolution.

    But its not here yet. Likely the first, slightly cheaper, creaseless folding/scrolling will be like the first mobile phones - so expensive as to be primarily for high end enterprise and the elite.

    I can see a case there for such devices being, like the patent, a co-development between MS and Samsung. It's the sort of product one would want major press on, shared risk/investment, and premium status. Or at least running windows makes more sense than android. Ultra-elite business users won't get much productivity benefit from a folding android tablet, after all, and people are unlikely to spend that kind of money on a slightly more portable Netflix!

    It will take that initial high expense product, like the original cell phones, to slowly reduce manufacturing costs, via scale and incremental improvements. It won't be a consumer product any time soon, barring some technological miracle. As such, it seems more logic its in MSFTs ballpark IMO.
    Certainly such a device could run DeX, but I think the real product will be running full windows 10, with the arm emu - which is probably what MSFT is cooking up with "Andromeda", a melting point between win10m and win on arm for folding devices.

    After all, such an expensive might be justified for running oracle, adobe products, office 365, accounting software, and a full suite of business applications, but snapchat or pokemon go is not really anywhere in the picture.

    I guess in a way, for all the hype around AR, it'll probably be similar for awhile - its main benefit to enterprise and other people with big pockets, until production methods can improve it down to consumer scale. For an enterprise user, or in medicine, AR makes a lot of sense - even with a high expense. However we are not seeing any immediate examples of a similar quality consumer product, and given the complexities of projecting light into the eye, FoV, latency and such, I don't think we will for a long time. Maybe something lower grade.

    Regardless, creaseless tech is not needed for a folding screen design. You simply need a hinge that creates a relatively low profile crease, and a UI, that is optimized to mostly conceal that crease (the tablets on westworld are a great example - they are all creased designs, but you don't notice because the UI is designed to hide it)

    If you look at some pics of the oft-touted future tech, the westworld tablets, you'll see they have creases. They are not some far off graphene tech, merely folding devices that are very thin, and have low profile hinge creases, with a UI design to hide those creases.

    It makes a lot of sense to make such a product, from very achievable and inexpensive existing technologies, as a development platform for a folding scaling OS of the future. Plus the OS end, requires a fair bit of development, more that slapping two screens together with a fancy hinge in likelihood. It's an enabling tech - it allows for development of the software of that eventual creaseless design, and later consumer product.

    People might object to the idea of a crease all they like, but it's doubtful anyone much will be willing to pony up the many thousands an all graphene screen would cost.

    Even if MSFT or whomever was working on a scrolling or creaseless design - it still wouldn't be for consumers.

    The small proto, that Samsung demo'd in 2011/13/whenever cost several tens of thousands of dollars. 50,000? 40,000? Something in that ballpark.

    Mass manufacture would reduce that very little, and the cost of graphene production hasn't really changed, despite one person starting to build a plant for it.

    Even if they created a folding screen tech where only the hinge part was graphene based, or they significantly reduced the cost of graphene - it would likely costs many thousands at the RRP, probably 5+ thousand. Somewhere in the realm of a cheap car.

    That's not the sort of money consumers will spend for portable entertainment devices, generally speaking.

    Actually I don't think such tech is that far off either. Probably 3-5 years. But when it comes it will still cost A LOT. This is not the new iPhone. Its the new 80s mobile phone/90s palmpilot long before it will slowly morph into the new iPhone.

    The other element to consider is the fact that CPUs, circuits and batteries can all be built theoretically into transparent graphene substrates. So the ultimate evolution is probably something more like "computer paper", created by nano-manufacturing processes. But that's an even longer journey.
    Out of topic!
    You really need to open a blog. You remind me of Jason Ward here!
    nate0, faisalbaba and techiez like this.
    07-06-2017 08:43 AM
  4. Drael646464's Avatar
    Out of topic!
    You really need to open a blog. You remind me of Jason Ward here!
    Topic: "The next big thing in phones".

    I do take slight offence being compared to Jason ward. I think what I wrote just there is a little bit more grounded in business and science XD I'm no expert, but I do follow those things a bit more closely IMO than ward, who veers a bit more towards the imagine whats possible type of thinking, that also has its own place.

    I'd be happy to be a paid blog writer though. I've done that type of work in the past. Its hard work sometimes coming up with good material like a machine, but its also fun.
    Last edited by Guytronic; 07-25-2017 at 12:39 PM.
    nate0 likes this.
    07-06-2017 09:20 AM
  5. techiez's Avatar
    Creaseless displays use graphene. Graphene is currently very expensive to produce. Samsung and microsofts dual development/co-patent of this creaseless screen tech design (forget the tm name) was as you mentioned demo'd years ago. I believe it was 2013?

    Could be 2011 I suppose, but I recall their co-announcement of the scroll proto being 2013, with it running windows 8.
    Of course Samsung got the most attention for this co-development and co-announcement, and went on to use it, as the basis for their practically useless curved screen design, which amusing people really liked. So much so, if you search this in youtube now, all you can really find is samsungs half of the announcement (which does show windows 8 on the proto, but no Microsoft portion of the speech)

    There have since been a few other companies demoing flexible OLED graphene screens. I don't think it will be a matter of any individual company being wildly 'first to market". A number of companies _can_ make such a thing, but they don't because it makes no economic sense.

    Graphene of course has many more scientific applications than screens. I can be used for bullet proofing, circuit boards, battery tech, chemical manuracture, water and other purification, super materials, spaceships, nano-manufacturing. The creation of low cost graphene will be a technological revolution.

    But its not here yet. Likely the first, slightly cheaper, creaseless folding/scrolling will be like the first mobile phones - so expensive as to be primarily for high end enterprise and the elite.

    I can see a case there for such devices being, like the patent, a co-development between MS and Samsung. It's the sort of product one would want major press on, shared risk/investment, and premium status. Or at least running windows makes more sense than android. Ultra-elite business users won't get much productivity benefit from a folding android tablet, after all, and people are unlikely to spend that kind of money on a slightly more portable Netflix!

    It will take that initial high expense product, like the original cell phones, to slowly reduce manufacturing costs, via scale and incremental improvements. It won't be a consumer product any time soon, barring some technological miracle. As such, it seems more logic its in MSFTs ballpark IMO.
    Certainly such a device could run DeX, but I think the real product will be running full windows 10, with the arm emu - which is probably what MSFT is cooking up with "Andromeda", a melting point between win10m and win on arm for folding devices.

    After all, such an expensive might be justified for running oracle, adobe products, office 365, accounting software, and a full suite of business applications, but snapchat or pokemon go is not really anywhere in the picture.

    I guess in a way, for all the hype around AR, it'll probably be similar for awhile - its main benefit to enterprise and other people with big pockets, until production methods can improve it down to consumer scale. For an enterprise user, or in medicine, AR makes a lot of sense - even with a high expense. However we are not seeing any immediate examples of a similar quality consumer product, and given the complexities of projecting light into the eye, FoV, latency and such, I don't think we will for a long time. Maybe something lower grade.

    Regardless, creaseless tech is not needed for a folding screen design. You simply need a hinge that creates a relatively low profile crease, and a UI, that is optimized to mostly conceal that crease (the tablets on westworld are a great example - they are all creased designs, but you don't notice because the UI is designed to hide it)

    If you look at some pics of the oft-touted future tech, the westworld tablets, you'll see they have creases. They are not some far off graphene tech, merely folding devices that are very thin, and have low profile hinge creases, with a UI design to hide those creases.

    It makes a lot of sense to make such a product, from very achievable and inexpensive existing technologies, as a development platform for a folding scaling OS of the future. Plus the OS end, requires a fair bit of development, more that slapping two screens together with a fancy hinge in likelihood. It's an enabling tech - it allows for development of the software of that eventual creaseless design, and later consumer product.

    People might object to the idea of a crease all they like, but it's doubtful anyone much will be willing to pony up the many thousands an all graphene screen would cost.

    Even if MSFT or whomever was working on a scrolling or creaseless design - it still wouldn't be for consumers.

    The small proto, that Samsung demo'd in 2011/13/whenever cost several tens of thousands of dollars. 50,000? 40,000? Something in that ballpark.

    Mass manufacture would reduce that very little, and the cost of graphene production hasn't really changed, despite one person starting to build a plant for it.

    Even if they created a folding screen tech where only the hinge part was graphene based, or they significantly reduced the cost of graphene - it would likely costs many thousands at the RRP, probably 5+ thousand. Somewhere in the realm of a cheap car.

    That's not the sort of money consumers will spend for portable entertainment devices, generally speaking.

    Actually I don't think such tech is that far off either. Probably 3-5 years. But when it comes it will still cost A LOT. This is not the new iPhone. Its the new 80s mobile phone/90s palmpilot long before it will slowly morph into the new iPhone.

    The other element to consider is the fact that CPUs, circuits and batteries can all be built theoretically into transparent graphene substrates. So the ultimate evolution is probably something more like "computer paper", created by nano-manufacturing processes. But that's an even longer journey.
    I agree to what you say and that why I believe the kind of device ppl imagine as a to-be surface phone is years away(for mass market consumption)
    07-06-2017 01:44 PM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    I agree to what you say and that why I believe the kind of device ppl imagine as a to-be surface phone is years away(for mass market consumption)
    "The full monty", yeah, it probably is, the folding screen tech, with full windows on the opened screen. I think we'll see "early versions" before then, but they might not be exactly what people have in mind when they imagine the surface phone, as you say.
    07-06-2017 09:39 PM
  7. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    The reason I say SP is 3-4 yrs away is due to the expectations and talks all around that it will be a foldable form factor, and a durable and usable foldable form factor is definitely years away(as a consumer mass product). Anything less than that cannot be called the next big thing and MS has already hinted that SP will not be the next candybar phone.
    I completely disagree that a prerequisite to viewing a device as the next big thing is that it has a foldable form factor.

    To me a small device that runs full windows (well) and accepts i/o devices wirelessly and contains LTE connectivity is really the next big thing. It would be an absolutely fantastic device.
    07-07-2017 03:23 PM
  8. techiez's Avatar
    I completely disagree that a prerequisite to viewing a device as the next big thing is that it has a foldable form factor.

    To me a small device that runs full windows (well) and accepts i/o devices wirelessly and contains LTE connectivity is really the next big thing. It would be an absolutely fantastic device.

    thats what surface mini was but was cancelled by ms
    Guytronic likes this.
    07-07-2017 04:34 PM
  9. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    thats what surface mini was but was cancelled by ms
    Not as far as I can see. Windows RT + not "small".
    07-07-2017 04:48 PM
  10. mtf1380's Avatar
    07-25-2017 11:31 AM
  11. faisalbaba's Avatar
    I think it will take time

    Sent from (iOK)
    07-25-2017 12:35 PM
  12. mtf1380's Avatar
    My concern is that Microsoft had better get the lead out, before their "game changer" is common place:(

    If they want to win hearts, and influence minds, they can't second to introduce the new tech!
    nate0 likes this.
    07-25-2017 01:10 PM
  13. faisalbaba's Avatar
    07-26-2017 12:59 AM
  14. nickx91's Avatar
    I wanted Google Ara project to continue so we wouldn't have to change the entire phones but only the parts, but they have suspended the project.
    07-26-2017 04:00 AM
  15. faisalbaba's Avatar
    There is rumor Facebook is also working on modular phone

    Sent from (iOK)
    07-26-2017 09:33 PM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    There is rumor Facebook is also working on modular phone

    Sent from (iOK)
    Another Facebook phone? Weren't the last two a resounding flop?

    Sent from my Acer Liquid Jade Primo on mTalk
    07-26-2017 09:55 PM
  17. faisalbaba's Avatar
    Has Facebook made any phone earlier

    Sent from (iOK)
    07-27-2017 10:50 AM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Has Facebook made any phone earlier

    Sent from (iOK)
    There was the HTC Status that was a quasi-Facebook phone and it flopped. Then came the HTC First which was an unequivocal dumpster fire. Look them up and read about them if you can stand the pain.

    Sent from my Acer Liquid Jade Primo onmTalk
    nate0 likes this.
    07-27-2017 02:54 PM
  19. HeyCori's Avatar
    IMO, the next big thing in phones is IoT. With so much "digital media" surrounding us, it's easy to forget that we're still living in an analog world. Your average person doesn't have a smart home, or a smart device, or a self driving car, or even a smart <insert blank>. But as smart devices become ubiquitous, a device that can track and control our new IoT life will become a necessity. Even my "smart" Amazon Echo is dependent on a web browser/app to configure the settings.

    Plus companies are greedy. So while you may logically be thinking that any phone should be able to control any device. I expect a lot of "exclusive" deals where only phone X will be able to take advantage of some "must have" new feature.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    07-28-2017 03:57 PM
  20. sinime's Avatar
    Pc or mobile

    Sent from (iOK)
    Xbox

    HeyCori likes this.
    07-28-2017 08:01 PM
  21. sinime's Avatar
    My concern is that Microsoft had better get the lead out, before their "game changer" is common place:(

    If they want to win hearts, and influence minds, they can't second to introduce the new tech!
    That's my biggest fear... Their device to win back a slice of the market share is taking so long to get to market (not sure if it's a hardware or software issue causing the delay)... That by the time it's released, it will already be available on Android and be a moot point.
    mtf1380 and dgr_874 like this.
    07-28-2017 08:05 PM
  22. nate0's Avatar
    There is rumor Facebook is also working on modular phone

    Sent from (iOK)
    nice...they have a movie too. TV show soon. Mark Zuckerberg is either an aspirational guy or only trying to keep up with the Jones'.
    07-28-2017 11:42 PM
  23. nate0's Avatar
    IMO, the next big thing in phones is IoT. With so much "digital media" surrounding us, it's easy to forget that we're still living in an analog world. Your average person doesn't have a smart home, or a smart device, or a self driving car, or even a smart <insert blank>. But as smart devices become ubiquitous, a device that can track and control our new IoT life will become a necessity. Even my "smart" Amazon Echo is dependent on a web browser/app to configure the settings.

    Plus companies are greedy. So while you may logically be thinking that any phone should be able to control any device. I expect a lot of "exclusive" deals where only phone X will be able to take advantage of some "must have" new feature.
    Did you know that the Elite X3 is an AT&T certified IoT device? I found this out recently...
    HeyCori, fatclue_98 and sinime like this.
    07-28-2017 11:43 PM
  24. HeyCori's Avatar
    I did not know. That's pretty cool.
    07-29-2017 09:07 AM
  25. sinime's Avatar
    The more I think about it, I think we are all wrong about the "next big thing" in mobile from MS.

    Won't we all be disappointed if it's not what we've built it up to be? Just thinking about how slow MS seems to be at reacting to things lately.... and I can't help but feel that the next big thing MS is betting on isn't a foldable screen, or anything to do with holograms... but simply what's been right in front of us all this time... Simply a phone, that when in continuum, can run x86/64 apps.

    I do hope I'm wrong, but I won't be shy to say "I told you so" if that's all MS has up it's sleeve.

    Don't think I'll take the blue pill if that's all it is.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    07-30-2017 12:05 AM
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