07-31-2018 04:20 AM
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  1. TgeekB's Avatar
    Speaking of sidelines, is Josh Allen the anointed starter or is he going to watch from afar?
    I betting on about 6 weeks in.
    05-11-2018 09:33 AM
  2. amits1024's Avatar
    How many multi billion dollar corporations have you run? It’s easy (for anyone) to go on the internet and play CEO. It’s another thing to do it. We all get to say “if they had only done this or that” and there’s no pressure at all.
    Apple and a Google currently own the smartphone market. Windows phone didn’t have a prayer. The apps that were missing are well documented. I’m not saying that the OS wasn’t efficient or the apps didn’t work, it just didn’t sell. There wasn’t enough interest overall. Playing armchair quarterback is easy.
    There were apps to cover up the app gap too. And in Europe & India there wasn't any app gap. Stop giving replies on a American perspective
    Timbre70 likes this.
    05-12-2018 07:48 AM
  3. amits1024's Avatar
    Ok, I’ll sit back and watch. I’d love a 3rd option, but I’m not holding my breath. I’ll watch from the sideline.
    Tell what options a guy has who has a budget of $300 and wants a smartphone and does not want to buy a Android phone due to it's poor battery and frequent hangs. The answer is NONE

    This is where Microsoft needs to provide a 2nd alternative. People here need to keep their hatred of Windows phone and USA-centrism aside and think of the rest of the world as well

    USA might not want a Windows phone, but Europe & India does want Windows phones
    05-12-2018 07:52 AM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    There were apps to cover up the app gap too. And in Europe & India there wasn't any app gap. Stop giving replies on a American perspective
    So you believe a company can survive only selling to some countries in Europe and India?
    05-12-2018 07:55 AM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Tell what options a guy has who has a budget of $300 and wants a smartphone and does not want to buy a Android phone due to it's poor battery and frequent hangs. The answer is NONE

    This is where Microsoft needs to provide a 2nd alternative. People here need to keep their hatred of Windows phone and USA-centrism aside and think of the rest of the world as well

    USA might not want a Windows phone, but Europe & India does want Windows phones
    All Android phones have poor battery and frequently hang? You’ve used them all?
    I didn’t want Windows phone to fail. I believe having more options to purchase is good for all, but making excuses for their failure doesn’t help. They need to be profitable to take on the current 2 giants and they weren’t. That is fact.
    xandros9, Elky64 and J Dubbs like this.
    05-12-2018 07:59 AM
  6. fatclue_98's Avatar
    All Android phones have poor battery and frequently hang? You’ve used them all?
    I didn’t want Windows phone to fail. I believe having more options to purchase is good for all, but making excuses for their failure doesn’t help. They need to be profitable to take on the current 2 giants and they weren’t. That is fact.
    Right now the BlackBerry KEYone and the Sony XA2 Ultra are the kings of battery life but unfortunately Androids still have a penchant for hanging and the odd Messaging app crash.
    aximtreo, xandros9 and Elky64 like this.
    05-14-2018 08:42 PM
  7. amits1024's Avatar
    So you believe a company can survive only selling to some countries in Europe and India?
    Yes. Some Chinese phone manufacturers survive by selling phones only in China & some Asian countries

    And Europe isn't a small market at all. And India is 1 of the biggest developing markets, so if Microsoft has a Europe + India approach towards Windows phones, they will make good profits. Once they make good profits, then relaunch them in USA
    Long Xuyen and xandros9 like this.
    05-17-2018 07:40 AM
  8. Long Xuyen's Avatar
    Not only did they throw away their ability to compete in smartphones they threw away the entry portal to computing.
    xandros9 likes this.
    05-18-2018 08:35 PM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes. Some Chinese phone manufacturers survive by selling phones only in China & some Asian countries

    And Europe isn't a small market at all. And India is 1 of the biggest developing markets, so if Microsoft has a Europe + India approach towards Windows phones, they will make good profits. Once they make good profits, then relaunch them in USA
    First of all I disagree. Just because you believe “some” Chinese phone company is selling only to India and Europe doesn’t make it true. If you have proof I would be happy to look at it though. What company? Will they be around in 5 years?
    Microsoft is a huge corporation who is not going to produce smartphones for a couple of countries. They have bigger fish to fry. I understand you want them to, because it involves you, but that doesn’t make it a smart business move.
    Elky64 likes this.
    05-18-2018 09:13 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    First of all I disagree. Just because you believe “some” Chinese phone company is selling only to India and Europe doesn’t make it true. If you have proof I would be happy to look at it though. What company? Will they be around in 5 years?
    Microsoft is a huge corporation who is not going to produce smartphones for a couple of countries. They have bigger fish to fry. I understand you want them to, because it involves you, but that doesn’t make it a smart business move.
    Nokia was a huge corporation that sold phones into all large markets except in the U.S. (at least they didn't actively themselves participate in the U.S. market and their market share in the U.S. was negligible). I think that counts as an example of such a company, does it not? Nokia was around for a very long time. Blackberry jumped in the gap and became North America's "Nokia" essentially, but Blackberry had very few places it was even marginally relevant outside of North America.

    Companies can do just fine without selling to the U.S. market. Many do.

    The U.S. is not a must-have market to sell into. The U.S. is a must-have market for software services however. For most companies this is irrelevant, but if you're Apple, Microsoft or Google, then it does matter. If your lofty goal is to create a computing ecosystem (rather than "just" hardware or software that participates in an existing ecosystem), you can either focus on China (a country that is a fully viable market all on its own), or you need mind-share in the U.S. Without U.S. developers, it's very unlikely you'll ever create an ecosystem that is successful in the western world.
    05-20-2018 05:10 PM
  11. TgeekB's Avatar
    Nokia was a huge corporation that sold phones into all large markets except in the U.S. (at least they didn't actively themselves participate in the U.S. market and their market share in the U.S. was negligible). I think that counts as an example of such a company, does it not? Nokia was around for a very long time. Blackberry jumped in the gap and became North America's "Nokia" essentially, but Blackberry had very few places it was even marginally relevant outside of North America.

    Companies can do just fine without selling to the U.S. market. Many do.

    .
    I’m certainly not saying smartphone makers need to sell exclusively to the U.S. My point is you can’t just sell in a few countries and survive unless you find a niche which creates a profit.
    I’m also speaking about now. While Nokia was a huge producer of phones, both they and BlackBerry failed in the modern market and now sell Android phones. Neither was able to compete with Apple and Google.
    I wish there was another choice, for nothing more than variety, but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.
    Elky64 likes this.
    05-20-2018 05:30 PM
  12. nate0's Avatar
    but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.
    It's ok to dream ain't it? Even if that is all it becomes or is, is a dream. Nobody's right nor wrong in that case. Or does it really matter who is right or wrong? That's all this thread seems to be about anyway...coulda woulda shouldas.
    05-20-2018 10:35 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    I’m certainly not saying smartphone makers need to sell exclusively to the U.S. My point is you can’t just sell in a few countries and survive unless you find a niche which creates a profit.
    I’m also speaking about now. While Nokia was a huge producer of phones, both they and BlackBerry failed in the modern market and now sell Android phones. Neither was able to compete with Apple and Google.
    I wish there was another choice, for nothing more than variety, but this dream that MS could have continued producing smartphones if only they had done this or that is a fable. It’s easy to play armchair quarterback on the Internet, but It’s not as easy as we make it out to be.
    Maybe the term "smartphone maker" is what's confusing us?

    IMHO MS and Google aren't smartphone makers. They are ecosystem and platform developers. For both, mind-share in the U.S. software market is absolutely essential.

    Apple is a smartphone maker but also an ecosystem and platform developer, so the same applies to them.

    A company like Xiaomi is a smartphone maker, just like Huawei. Both became huge while focused on a single country. They didn't even need access to "a few" countries to become large and sustainable corporations. A single country was enough, China. For smartphone makers, a few countries are more than enough to be profitable, provided it's the right ones.

    Maybe not making the distinction between "smartphone maker" and "platform developer" is also part of the disagreement between you and amits?
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-21-2018 at 08:42 AM.
    TgeekB likes this.
    05-21-2018 07:48 AM
  14. amits1024's Avatar
    Nokia was a huge corporation that sold phones into all large markets except in the U.S. (at least they didn't actively themselves participate in the U.S. market and their market share in the U.S. was negligible). I think that counts as an example of such a company, does it not? Nokia was around for a very long time. Blackberry jumped in the gap and became North America's "Nokia" essentially, but Blackberry had very few places it was even marginally relevant outside of North America.

    Companies can do just fine without selling to the U.S. market. Many do.

    The U.S. is not a must-have market to sell into. The U.S. is a must-have market for software services however. For most companies this is irrelevant, but if you're Apple, Microsoft or Google, then it does matter. If your lofty goal is to create a computing ecosystem (rather than "just" hardware or software that participates in an existing ecosystem), you can either focus on China (a country that is a fully viable market all on its own), or you need mind-share in the U.S. Without U.S. developers, it's very unlikely you'll ever create an ecosystem that is successful in the western world.
    Yes. And Windows phones were made popular by Nokia in 2011-2013 through the Nokia Lumia series. There was a time around 2012-2013 when the flagship Nokia Lumias used to be compared to I Phones & Samsung Galaxies and the Lumias used to beat them. The Nokia Lumia 1020 has a 41 megapixel camera and even after 5 years, no phone has come close to that

    With Nokia being almost non-existant in USA, Windows phone even in their best days never became popular in USA. Nokia was popular in Europe and India, so Windows phones also became popular in Europe and India. When Microsoft took over Nokia, they were able to sell phones in Europe and India mainly and as Nokia was never popular in USA, so Microsoft were not able to sell much phones in USA

    The main reason for Windows phone being killed by Microsoft was turning a blind eye to the markets which needed it and forcing it to the market which didn't need it. Here Europe & India were the ones who loved Windows Phones and who needed Windows Phones. USA never had the need of Windows Phones and just because Windows Phones flopped in USA, people in Europe & India also had to suffer for something they never did

    If we see the stats, in some years in some European countries, Windows phones had a market share of over 15% and in India, Windows OS was 2nd biggest in Mobile and even beat IOS in it's peak time. Only in USA Windows Phones didn't make a mark and Microsoft made their fans, mostly non-Americans suffer due to that
    05-21-2018 03:44 PM
  15. amits1024's Avatar
    Also when Microsoft released the Anniversary update in 2016 and Creators update in 2017 for Windows phones with lots of new features, why didn't Microsoft release any new phones with those updates. Lack of phones was also 1 of the main reasons for Windows OS dying

    The OS kept getting better and better till 2017 and the number of phones kept getting lesser and lesser and slowly people were turned off

    If Microsoft had released 1 good phone with each of Anniversary update & Creators update (The phones also having Continuum as well), Windows phone would have been very much alive today. Some OEMs would have also joined in and Microsoft might have even released a budget Windows phone too sometime in 2017. The Fall creators update in 2017 would have brought a new phone and another would have come with the 2018 update
    05-21-2018 03:57 PM
  16. TgeekB's Avatar
    It's ok to dream ain't it? Even if that is all it becomes or is, is a dream. Nobody's right nor wrong in that case. Or does it really matter who is right or wrong? That's all this thread seems to be about anyway...coulda woulda shouldas.
    That’s my point. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Anyone can say that, not so easy to pull it off.
    None of us will ever know and if it makes people happy to make things up, why not. I deal with facts which makes me a boring SOB! Maybe I should dream more.
    05-21-2018 04:20 PM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Also when Microsoft released the Anniversary update in 2016 and Creators update in 2017 for Windows phones with lots of new features, why didn't Microsoft release any new phones with those updates. Lack of phones was also 1 of the main reasons for Windows OS dying

    The OS kept getting better and better till 2017 and the number of phones kept getting lesser and lesser and slowly people were turned off

    If Microsoft had released 1 good phone with each of Anniversary update & Creators update (The phones also having Continuum as well), Windows phone would have been very much alive today. Some OEMs would have also joined in and Microsoft might have even released a budget Windows phone too sometime in 2017. The Fall creators update in 2017 would have brought a new phone and another would have come with the 2018 update
    As much as we would all have loved for that to happen, it still boils down to the app gap. The OS was getting better but apps were leaving the Store in droves. How exactly would new phones with the Fall Creator Update attract users away from Android or iOS?
    TgeekB, Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    05-21-2018 05:34 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    If we see the stats, in some years in some European countries, Windows phones had a market share of over 15% and in India, Windows OS was 2nd biggest in Mobile and even beat IOS in it's peak time. Only in USA Windows Phones didn't make a mark and Microsoft made their fans, mostly non-Americans suffer due to that
    I think what you are saying reflects exactly the misunderstanding I pointed out earlier. You're blaming MS for world wide "suffering" due to failing "only" in the U.S. You seem to think this is unfair or crazy.

    However, like I said, the U.S. is where most app innovation occurs. MS can't maintain a viable ecosystem without their platform going mainstream in the U.S.! It didn't. How much marketshare WP had in India or Europe simply doesn't matter at that point, because selling hardware is only a means to an end. The platform and the ecosystem are what are actually important.

    In that light, MS bailing out despite having some market share outside the U.S. isn't crazy at all! What actually is crazy is that MS failed so miserably in their home market.
    tgp, fatclue_98, nate0 and 2 others like this.
    05-21-2018 07:49 PM
  19. amits1024's Avatar
    As much as we would all have loved for that to happen, it still boils down to the app gap. The OS was getting better but apps were leaving the Store in droves. How exactly would new phones with the Fall Creator Update attract users away from Android or iOS?
    The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones. What was the point of releasing Anniversary update (2016) & Creators update (2017) with new features when no new phones were released with those updates. Had both updates been accompanied with 1 phone each, Windows phone would have slowly & steadily grown with a improved OS in 2017 rather than dying
    05-27-2018 07:55 AM
  20. amits1024's Avatar
    I think what you are saying reflects exactly the misunderstanding I pointed out earlier. You're blaming MS for world wide "suffering" due to failing "only" in the U.S. You seem to think this is unfair or crazy.

    However, like I said, the U.S. is where most app innovation occurs. MS can't maintain a viable ecosystem without their platform going mainstream in the U.S.! It didn't. How much marketshare WP had in India or Europe simply doesn't matter at that point, because selling hardware is only a means to an end. The platform and the ecosystem are what are actually important.

    In that light, MS bailing out despite having some market share outside the U.S. isn't crazy at all! What actually is crazy is that MS failed so miserably in their home market.
    It is unfair. Remember Nokia even in it's prime wasn't succesful in USA, but over the world they were the biggest phone brand. When Windows phone came and Nokia came out with Nokia Lumia, in the countries where Nokia was popular, Windows phone also became popular, but in USA as Nokia wasn't popular, so Windows phone couldn't be popular too

    And USA isn't the only country in the world. Lot of innovations happen in Europe, India & China too. Microsoft made the rest of the world suffer for something which they didn't do

    Microsoft should have forgotten USA for Windows phones and pushed it in Europe & India where the demand for Windows phones was there rather than force it on USA where no one needed them

    And sadly due to this, people who want to buy phones for less than $300 have no other option apart from lag-droid with it's pathetic battery life & frequent hangs :( And Microsoft's USA-centrism is to blame for this

    And nothing crazy in Microsoft failing in their home market. Windows phones were synonymous to Nokia and when Nokia in their prime couldn't be succesful in USA, Microsoft should have realised earlier that Windows phone wasn't going to be succesful in USA, but they could have had Windows phone make it big in Europe & Asia, something which they never even tried
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-27-2018 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Merged two posts
    05-27-2018 08:01 AM
  21. TgeekB's Avatar
    The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones. What was the point of releasing Anniversary update (2016) & Creators update (2017) with new features when no new phones were released with those updates. Had both updates been accompanied with 1 phone each, Windows phone would have slowly & steadily grown with a improved OS in 2017 rather than dying
    We don’t know that for sure. There are many things needed for an OS to grow, including apps. It’s a catch 22: you need apps to draw people and you need people to draw apps. Like I tell BlackBerry diehards, I think it was all timing. iOS and Google hit at the right time and I don’t think much be could be done by anyone else to stop it. Until something drastically new comes along, we have our market.
    a5cent, Laura Knotek and J Dubbs like this.
    05-27-2018 08:03 AM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft should have forgotten USA for Windows phones and pushed it in Europe & India where the demand for Windows phones was there rather than force it on USA where no one needed them
    And USA isn't the only country in the world. Lot of innovations happen in Europe, India & China too. Microsoft made the rest of the world suffer for something which they didn't do
    Yes. There is a lot of innovation outside the U.S. For example, most hardware components in the iPhone were neither designed nor built in the U.S. That just has absolutely nothing to do with the problem MS had.

    As innovative as some other economies are, MS, Google and Apple are platform developers, and to be successful themselves, they are dependent on a SPECIFIC KIND of innovation. Most of that does occur in the U.S. I already explained this, so if you can address what I said and explain why you disagree with it, then I'll be glad to discuss it further. However, if you're just going to restate your previous position while ignoring all the points that have been made against it, there is no point to discussing it further.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-27-2018 at 11:51 AM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-27-2018 10:19 AM
  23. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The apps were leaving the store because Microsoft wasn't releasing new phones.
    Many of the apps that left the Store is because they were abandonware that hadn't been updated since before 8.1 and needed to be updated for use on W10M. The Idol 4S and the HP x3 were released with the Anniversary Update so your statement holds no water. I think you meant to say that no Lumias were released to accompany the AU.
    Laura Knotek, a5cent and aximtreo like this.
    05-27-2018 12:03 PM
  24. amits1024's Avatar
    Many of the apps that left the Store is because they were abandonware that hadn't been updated since before 8.1 and needed to be updated for use on W10M. The Idol 4S and the HP x3 were released with the Anniversary Update so your statement holds no water. I think you meant to say that no Lumias were released to accompany the AU.
    Yes I was talking of Lumias. And no phone was released by Microsoft or any other OEM with the Creators update in 2017

    If Microsoft had released just 1 Lumia with Continuum with each of Anniversary update & Creators update, Windows phones would have been very much alive today
    05-28-2018 01:37 AM
  25. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes I was talking of Lumias. And no phone was released by Microsoft or any other OEM with the Creators update in 2017

    If Microsoft had released just 1 Lumia with Continuum with each of Anniversary update & Creators update, Windows phones would have been very much alive today
    That’s your opinion, not fact.
    a5cent likes this.
    05-28-2018 07:35 AM
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