05-21-2017 11:03 AM
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  1. Luuthian's Avatar
    Before BUILD I know a lot of us around here were hoping that Microsoft would have some news regarding the future of their mobile vision. Since that didn't happen... Silence says it all? Anyone want to make their own interpretation?

    Seems like more than anything Build highlighted Microsoft's commitment to platform agnostic growth. My own take is they're going full speed ahead with mixed reality and cloud. Windows Phone is not a priority, it no longer completes either of those two visions. It's like everyone else said... the future is devices you can bring with you, just not the kind we currently put in our pocket. But until a full transition is made it's better to focus on the devices currently shaping the market and not ones of MS' own design.

    Considering what they showed off this seems like the right move. Windows Phone was clearly holding them back. Without having to commit so heavily to the platform they can invest elsewhere... and it seems to be paying off in spades.
    Tunde Fajimi and DavidinCT like this.
    05-13-2017 02:54 AM
  2. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well they have a multi-platform approach, which I have so say I deeply respect. Its the total opposite of how apple, and increasingly google are treating their consumers. Its very consumer centric.

    I don't think I'll ever stop heaping praise on that choice, especially as we enter into the IoT, where device incompatibility from other software providers will end up being a consumer nightmare.

    Windows 10 mobile was present at build, and it should offer a better experience for all the new software features mentioned too. When it's off feature2, the superior Cortana skills experience, and superior "timeline" experience will rest on the native platform.

    Last time MS mentioned mobile was the feature2 - they said it was on feature2 so they could focus on the onecore build. I suspect that is essentially connected to the migration of phone features in preparation for arm. And probably because they want to test some features before bringing them to mobile.

    I was hoping they would announce cshell, and mention something at build, but in view of the above, given mobile is still on feature too, it's not really time for any mobile announcments. They need to finish that onecore work first THEN start adding the held back desktop features to mobile, and clearly cshell has not been mentioned yet for anyone.

    I'm thoroughly confused as to what the late may hardware is given it can't really be - windows on arm, mixed reality, surface pro/book, invoke and it has to be something that's "next". I doubt its a phone though.

    In general I don't see slab phones being a huge money earner in the near future. Hype's dying down, maturation of markets is occurring, growth at the premium end is slowing, and budget is rising - whilst smart devices /IoT/Voice and AR/VR while nascent are experiencing solid growth.

    Those are the future money spinners. And phones are peripheral to AV/VR, although they have connection to IoT, IoT is a realm where device compatibility and crossplatform will be essential for survival commercially. So as such, there needs to be some crosstalk.

    I don't see phones going anywhere but I see them becoming sort of ho-hum tools to most people like laptops, or feature phones. Useful and interesting primarily for the power of the software they run, like machine learning, rather than the hardware itself.

    I think its important very important to include them, but without a major paradigm shift I think we are at the top of a bell curve that is only down from here. profit wise. Whereas AR/VR and IoT/Machine learning is at the start.

    AR/VR is also great news for stationary machines and also laptops. To get the best immersive experience, you need the most powerful hardware possible. This is a form of entertainment/productivity where pocket devices cannot compete. And that is good for MS, and good for windows.

    Mobility then becomes something also where voice is more primary - which is also good for windows, as the large 2.8 million app collection google has, becomes less important, because its all touch only. A semi-fresh playing field.

    I don't think MS _should_ abandon windows 10 mobile yet. I think they should make it the best damn machine learning and connected device system they can. A Cortana focused beast. Given the way the future is heading, now would not be the time to fold that opening.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-13-2017 at 03:46 AM.
    05-13-2017 03:35 AM
  3. MLXVI's Avatar
    I think BUILD was positive for Windows mobile enthusiasts. Although the focus was on integrating Microsoft services with android and IoS was the focus, Windows powered mobiles were present. This would simply not have been the case if Windows mobile was "dead".

    I have a theory that Microsoft is integrating its services with android and IoS not only because it's great business sense, but also in order to pinch those customers later on. A big stumbling block for Windows mobile was that too many people were too integrated with Google or Apple services which made switching to Windows mobile out of the question. If Microsoft can get people using Microsoft service, OneDrive instead of iCloud or Google Drive, etc, then it will make it easier for those consumers to switch to a Windows powered device in the future whatever that iteration may be. Windows 10 S already seems like an effort to boost the Windows store by locking people into it which should hopefully help with the app gap by attracting developers to create UWP apps. And the prestige they're building with the Surface brand means a phone with that brand, with all other factors included, could be huge.
    05-13-2017 06:26 AM
  4. garisa's Avatar
    As far as I know they haven't said anything specific about w10m. They were even showing off Cortina's feature with an iPhone...😒 That woman actually said "on my iOS device" or something like that.
    Mobility then becomes something also where voice is more primary - which is also good for windows, as the large 2.8 million app collection google has, becomes less important, because its all touch only. A semi-fresh playing field.
    I don't believe it's like that. Firstly, how is Cortana going to replace my recently lost banking app. Cortana cannot replace applications, it actually depends of applications. And secondly, in many situations it's far easier for us to handle something on a screen than by speech. Not to mention to for these speech commands you actually need to learn how to communicate with Cortana. Far from that she can understand you like computer from USS Enterprise. 😉

    I think that this build was far from positive. It more looks to me like Microsoft actually focuses on mobile, but not on their platform but on bringing their services to mobile platforms - primarily to Android and iOS.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    pedmar007, esco757, muvig and 2 others like this.
    05-13-2017 06:51 AM
  5. MLXVI's Avatar
    I think that this build was far from positive. It more looks to me like Microsoft actually focuses on mobile, but not on their platform but on bringing their services to mobile platforms - primarily to Android and iOS.
    What good would focusing all their attention on Windows mobile be if; a) hardly anyone is using it, b) hardly anyone will want to use it as they're too entrenched in the Google & Apple ecosystems, and c) they have a new vision for mobile which goes beyond what they currently have already? I'm not saying they're not focusing some attention on Windows mobile in its current iteration because they are, I think it is a great testing ground, but right now the customers are on android and IoS and they're entrenched in their Google and IoS ecosystems. Not only does it make sense to go where the money is, but, if a future iteration of Windows mobile is to have any success it will need to take customers from android and IoS and that will only be possible on a large scale if those customers are already integrated with Microsoft services. It makes perfect business sense to go where the money is right now, and it makes sense if they plan to re-enter the mobile market with a new device which seems very likely.

    I think they're making some smart moves. It's not what Windows mobile fans want in a world where a brand new smartphone is realised every month with a slightly better screen, and an ever so slightly better processor, but I think MS are playing the long game.
    05-13-2017 07:07 AM
  6. petvas72's Avatar
    Microsoft has a long term strategy and no short term. They acknowledge that the mobile OS wars are lost, so they are trying to keep Windows 10 relevant in today's world, until the OS is ready for use as a mobile phone also. Microsoft wants that people use its services. This is more important to the company, than having a dominant mobile OS.I think that Microsoft is doing the right thing here, by making its products even better. When the time comes, we will certainly see a mobile device from Microsoft that will be very interesting to consumers.
    05-13-2017 07:08 AM
  7. Drael646464's Avatar
    As far as I know they haven't said anything specific about w10m. They were even showing off Cortina's feature with an iPhone...������ That woman actually said "on my iOS device" or something like that.
    Windows 10 mobile was used for the demo of "files on demand".

    Although all of these cross device initiatives are designed to be platform independent, which is something I am a huge supporter of (it's the opposite of what apple and google are doing, and its great for consumers), clearly Cortana skills and "timeline" will work better on windows 10 mobile.

    It's pretty obvious why - Cortana is more complete and better intergrated into windows machines. We know that already. It's been explained that not all the skills will work with ios or android machines in the preview. You get the better version on windows machines.

    Likewise when moving from a PC or tablet, to a windows 10 mobile device, with timeline, windows 10 mobile shares the UWP platform with those devices. Android and iOS do not. So windows 10 mobile is more likely to have the exact same app you were using (or the pc is more likely to have that same app, whatever). Were you to shift from a iOS app, to a windows machine - odds are there's no app for that. Timeline will work better within the UWP framework.

    I don't believe it's like that. Firstly, how is Cortana going to replace my recently lost banking app.
    Your bank writes a Cortana skill, or imports an alexa skill, or Microsoft bot which gives you your balances, and does transfers - you from your BT earpiece or headphones say "Cortana ask such and such bank what my balance is" etc.


    Cortana cannot replace applications, it actually depends of applications.
    That's what voice skills are. App for voice, via Cortana. You can currently, if in the US order a pizza, or get the latest news via the preview already. Apps and skills are entirely separate.

    And secondly, in many situations it's far easier for us to handle something on a screen than by speech.
    Yes, and vice versa. Touch is preferable for rich content, or complex input, voice is better for speed and convenience (ie you don't have to take your phone out, unlock and flick around on the lil screen). I guess you could see voice as a productivity tool in some ways, you can use voice more casually.

    I hope to see of course dual mic set-ups in phones soon though. You don't always want to use BT headpieces, car mics etc.

    Not to mention to for these speech commands you actually need to learn how to communicate with Cortana. Far from that she can understand you like computer from USS Enterprise. ������
    The intention stated in the demo, is that Cortana will pro-actively offer these to you. Right now, skills are special commands, like alexa. But that's not how they demo'd it, or whats intended for the project.

    I think that this build was far from positive. It more looks to me like Microsoft actually focuses on mobile, but not on their platform but on bringing their services to mobile platforms - primarily to Android and iOS.
    Would you rather Microsoft was like apple and tried to lock its consumers in a guilded cage?

    Or try and bring those users into the windows system with broad device compatibility? I mean it makes apple in particularly look outrageously restrictive. The reasons people often use to why they don't like apple, will now be reasons why they can like Microsoft.
    garisa, TgeekB, pedmar007 and 3 others like this.
    05-13-2017 07:18 AM
  8. garisa's Avatar
    And in long term: When/if they decide to come back to mobile OS, this OS is going to have an empty Store, and nobody would but that cr*p from then for the very same reason why they left this platform.

    I'm not saying that they should neglect Android and iOS, but it us their fault that there are so little Windows users right now - because they gave us no phones we could buy. As a result if that - right now we're having less applications in the Store by each day, and those existing applications are getting zero support.

    Just these days Viber has started to have some issues with stickers packs - which they previously sold to us. And now it seems like they are pretty much ignoring this fact as their support keeps repeating how "they have no plans in releasing new versions of their UWP app" and how "they have no plans in bringing new sticker packs to Windows". Go, thank Microsoft for that! Though I still hope that this is going to be solved, but who knows.

    Microsoft is the one who sold their phones to people. Lumia 650 was released only one year ago. They lied to those people who bought these phones! Everything what Microsoft does is making their anti-fans, people who see how much rotten their company actually is. But I'm still waiting for them to show me I'm wrong.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    05-13-2017 07:30 AM
  9. Drael646464's Avatar
    I think they're making some smart moves. It's not what Windows mobile fans want in a world where a brand new smartphone is realised every month with a slightly better screen, and an ever so slightly better processor, but I think MS are playing the long game.
    Also a world where device turn-over, growth in the premium markets are both slowing, budget is the biggest growth area, and practically the actual differences are relatively trivial with basically zero significant innovation.

    Phones have pretty much maxed.

    If someone releases a phone with a 3d screen, a foldable tablet, or dual mics and a kick *** machine learning assistant, well then I might feel jelly if its not windows. Otherwise its mostly pointless spec wars. Phones are moving to 6 and 8gb's now on android. UTTERLY pointless on android, and will be for a long time to come, longer than the life of the device. You may as well put a toaster function on it.
    05-13-2017 07:33 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    And in long term: When/if they decide to come back to mobile OS, this OS is going to have an empty Store, and nobody would but that cr*p from then for the very same reason why they left this platform.

    I'm not saying that they should neglect Android and iOS, but it us their fault that there are so little Windows users right now - because they gave us no phones we could buy. As a result if that - right now we're having less applications in the Store by each day, and those existing applications are getting zero support.

    Just these days Viber has started to have some issues with stickers packs - which they previously sold to us. And now it seems like they are pretty much ignoring this fact as their support keeps repeating how "they have no plans in releasing new versions of their UWP app" and how "they have no plans in bringing new sticker packs to Windows". Go, thank Microsoft for that! Though I still hope that this is going to be solved, but who knows.

    Microsoft is the one who sold their phones to people. Lumia 650 was released only one year ago. They lied to those people who bought these phones! Everything what Microsoft does is making their anti-fans, people who see how much rotten their company actually is. But I'm still waiting for them to show me I'm wrong.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    So far as I can see their plan for UWP seems pretty solid. Draw devs in via the centennial bridge, xamarin 2, and windows s. Then draw them over to UWP, and from other mobility based platforms, via windows on arm on tablets, hybrids and laptops. All seems to be going to plan so far IMO.

    Maybe it might be nice if Microsoft released a phone. But their surface range has such a high image it needs to be kind of ground breaking, and impressive. UWP still has a while to come, and their other plans are still works in progress.

    Fortunately there are a few new windows phones in the works this year.
    05-13-2017 07:39 AM
  11. garisa's Avatar
    Would you rather Microsoft was like apple and tried to lock its consumers in a guilded cage?

    Or try and bring those users into the windows system with broad device compatibility? I mean it makes apple in particularly look outrageously restrictive. The reasons people often use to why they don't like apple, will now be reasons why they can like Microsoft.
    Yes, you said it well, but I only wanted to reply on this. Microsoft may be trying to do that with their Windows 10 S. Though they don't seem to be in position to do that...

    Yeah, it is definitely a good thing that they make their services available everywhere, and even for Windows Phone users. For example, OneDrive can be far more useful to me if more of my friends it coworkers use it too...

    I'm just upset because of their carelessness to keep Windows 10 mobile in a good shape.☹ Even their current AU w10m builds are not as stable as they were in December 2016 or January 2017... In my option, that's when w10m with performances was on its peak. Now I feel everything is going downhill - their OS stability and reliability, and the entire ecosystem...☹

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    05-13-2017 07:43 AM
  12. garisa's Avatar
    So far as I can see their plan for UWP seems pretty solid. Draw devs in via the centennial bridge, xamarin 2, and windows s. Then draw them over to UWP, and from other mobility based platforms, via windows on arm on tablets, hybrids and laptops. All seems to be going to plan so far IMO.

    Maybe it might be nice if Microsoft released a phone. But their surface range has such a high image it needs to be kind of ground breaking, and impressive. UWP still has a while to come, and their other plans are still works in progress.

    Fortunately there are a few new windows phones in the works this year.
    I just thing l think that having any Windows phones, even non-groundbreaking would be good and helpful for this platform. Having w10m devices would motivate developers, and it far better than those things like Xamarin, etc. Sure, we can get some stuff from PC maybe, but many things that are not on PC are essential for phones, and that's what we're never get this way.

    I hope you're right about the new phones.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    05-13-2017 07:48 AM
  13. TgeekB's Avatar
    As far as I know they haven't said anything specific about w10m. They were even showing off Cortina's feature with an iPhone...😒 That woman actually said "on my iOS device" or something like that.

    I don't believe it's like that. Firstly, how is Cortana going to replace my recently lost banking app. Cortana cannot replace applications, it actually depends of applications. And secondly, in many situations it's far easier for us to handle something on a screen than by speech. Not to mention to for these speech commands you actually need to learn how to communicate with Cortana. Far from that she can understand you like computer from USS Enterprise. 😉

    I think that this build was far from positive. It more looks to me like Microsoft actually focuses on mobile, but not on their platform but on bringing their services to mobile platforms - primarily to Android and iOS.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    You're not looking past today. Everything will not stay the way it is forever, it will change. Microsoft it planning for that future.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    05-13-2017 07:52 AM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    Microsoft has a long term strategy and no short term. They acknowledge that the mobile OS wars are lost, so they are trying to keep Windows 10 relevant in today's world, until the OS is ready for use as a mobile phone also. Microsoft wants that people use its services. This is more important to the company, than having a dominant mobile OS.I think that Microsoft is doing the right thing here, by making its products even better. When the time comes, we will certainly see a mobile device from Microsoft that will be very interesting to consumers.
    I agree. It would be a waste of time to focus on mobile right now. The building blocks are being placed right now and when ready mobile devices (in a different form perhaps) will be relevant again.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    05-13-2017 07:55 AM
  15. garisa's Avatar
    It wouldn't be a waste of time because this way by the time they bring something "revolutionary" users and developers will have given up on Windows. Especially because Windows 10 on ARM would be a continuation of Windows 10 mobile thanks to UWP, so even after Windows 10 on ARM is released Windows 10 mobile devices wouldn't be left behind. In fact they would still be relevant because Windows 10 on ARM would only work on expensive devices.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    Jelmar Andree likes this.
    05-13-2017 08:04 AM
  16. Patrick Nexxus Pasia's Avatar
    Saw some pics of Fluent Designs in W10M. Ill take that as a good sign
    garisa likes this.
    05-13-2017 08:09 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    I just thing l think that having any Windows phones, even non-groundbreaking would be good and helpful for this platform. Having w10m devices would motivate developers, and it far better than those things like Xamarin, etc. Sure, we can get some stuff from PC maybe, but many things that are not on PC are essential for phones, and that's what we're never get this way.

    I hope you're right about the new phones.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    I hear ya. Win10 mobile is a bit of a backburner for MS right now, and that's a bit frustrating as a user.

    Windows on arm, out late this year, will bring telephony, LTE always connected networking, GPS, longer battery life, and cheaper than intel prices to tablets, hybrids and notebooks. That's what I believe MSFTs plan is for bringing "mobility apps" to the UWP platform, as well as pushing further into the tablet/notebook market.

    Just like you see iTunes, and Spotify now coming to the centennial bridge halfway house, a new OS with a whole bunch of new hardware will also bring chat apps, banking apps, GPS based to the full UWP platform, and perhaps some of those other centennials fully into UWP.

    What I see MS doing is essentially "slowly going smaller and more connected", such that these new windows on arm devices serve in part as a "bridge" to mobile. Like a graduated step down that started with surface, who's next stage is maybe/probably including 8-10 inch tablet/hybrid devices with telephony.

    Mini-pcs with a stylus you can carry in a bag and use an earpiece or similar to make calls with basically. If that type of size and form can be established over time, the leap to mobile, originally from win32 on desktop, is then small. You are basically already there.

    Re the new phones, we've had Wiley fox and Moly say they have phones coming soon. HP will probably make a part 2, is everyone's guess. I _hope_ TCL brings a 4s mark two, but we will see. Which is all a little sparser than everyone would like, but as a "less competitive market" its still attractive to "up and comers", and I believe HPs productivity play netted them something.

    At least its not entirely quite on the home front. Even a MS optimist like myself would find that troubling for mobile.

    As a side note, I'd probably happily use one of those sort of WoA mini surface type devices. I prefer tablets to phones anyway, and basically always carry a bag. The ability to play dope games like trine 2 and civ 5, write music on the go, Ink on my device, would happily make up for the increased size versus a phone. I'd be particularly keen if the size was 8.9. I've tried a lot of tablets, and that seems to be the sweet spot for the max size you can hold in one hand easily, and the minimum size for running win32's without scaling too huge.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-13-2017 at 08:37 AM.
    garisa likes this.
    05-13-2017 08:24 AM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    Saw some pics of Fluent Designs in W10M. Ill take that as a good sign
    Screenshot or pic! Please, that would be like manna from heaven to the worried folk like the OP.
    garisa likes this.
    05-13-2017 08:26 AM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    It wouldn't be a waste of time because this way by the time they bring something "revolutionary" users and developers will have given up on Windows. Especially because Windows 10 on ARM would be a continuation of Windows 10 mobile thanks to UWP, so even after Windows 10 on ARM is released Windows 10 mobile devices wouldn't be left behind. In fact they would still be relevant because Windows 10 on ARM would only work on expensive devices.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    I understand your frustration but, if you were running the company, you may see it differently. Remember, some third parties may still be releasing some W10M phones soon. That would be nice to hold us over. The future can't get here soon enough sometimes, but we have to be patient and wait out their strategy.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    05-13-2017 08:29 AM
  20. garisa's Avatar
    Just like you see iTunes, and Spotify now coming to the centennial bridge halfway house, a new OS with a whole bunch of new hardware will also bring chat apps, banking apps, GPS based to the full UWP platform, and perhaps some of those other centennials fully into UWP.
    I just hope they will be motivated to make these apps UWP instead of win32. This could be a decision between Windows 7/8/8.1 and Windows mobile devices. I hope Windows mobile devices won't be less relevant than these desktop OS's for this matter by that time.

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    05-13-2017 08:54 AM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    Saw some pics of Fluent Designs in W10M. Ill take that as a good sign
    Searched that up using duckduck go. Turns out you are totally right about them developing fluent design for win 10 mobile.

    Dunno why this isn't on the front page with all the other FDS news.

    (People have noted they visually differ slightly from desktop: indeed groove looks nothing like this on my desktop CU, and Films & TV doesn't have any FDS for me - is it insiders for mobile or still coming?)

    TV & Movies on windows 10 mobile:
    fluent-movies.jpg

    Groove Music on windows 10 mobile:
    img-20170513-wa0002.jpg
    Last edited by Drael646464; 05-13-2017 at 10:26 AM.
    05-13-2017 09:50 AM
  22. garisa's Avatar
    But these are on Redstone 3 I assume? Are they going to come to Redstone 2 as well? They should if I remember correctly?

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 PC
    05-13-2017 11:50 AM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    But these are on Redstone 3 I assume? Are they going to come to Redstone 2 as well? They should if I remember correctly?

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 PC
    The fast insiders w10 mobile ring got them last night. So redstone 3 aka "FCU", but perhaps they'll roll them out to us via cumulative updates IDK.
    05-13-2017 10:59 PM
  24. garisa's Avatar
    Silly how FCU reminds of GTFU... 😂

    Joke aside, though it sounds a little bit strange, it makes sense.😊

    Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone
    05-14-2017 03:59 AM
  25. faisalbaba's Avatar
    Before BUILD I know a lot of us around here were hoping that Microsoft would have some news regarding the future of their mobile vision. Since that didn't happen... Silence says it all? Anyone want to make their own interpretation?

    Seems like more than anything Build highlighted Microsoft's commitment to platform agnostic growth. My own take is they're going full speed ahead with mixed reality and cloud. Windows Phone is not a priority, it no longer completes either of those two visions. It's like everyone else said... the future is devices you can bring with you, just not the kind we currently put in our pocket. But until a full transition is made it's better to focus on the devices currently shaping the market and not ones of MS' own design.

    Considering what they showed off this seems like the right move. Windows Phone was clearly holding them back. Without having to commit so heavily to the platform they can invest elsewhere... and it seems to be paying off in spades.
    I think they didn't talk mobile at build because they will talk future of mobile at may 23 event in china

    Sent from mTalk
    05-14-2017 04:21 AM
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