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01-05-2017 10:56 AM
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  1. Pynchmail's Avatar
    Yes, you are right. I think it is designed for use with Continuum. For example, let's say you are an interior designer, you designed a beautiful room using your office x86 3D CAD software. You load the design onto your phone and go meet your client. You connect your phone to your client's LCD TV using Continuum and started going through the design. You can revise the design on your phone together with your client, and once done, you email the design to your client on the spot. All without having to bring a laptop. A true cellular 5 inch PC running Windows 10 ARM with Creator's Update.
    Last edited by Pynchmail; 12-09-2016 at 08:56 PM.
    MOBBAK likes this.
    12-09-2016 08:44 PM
  2. fatclue_98's Avatar
    This is a play for the enterprise, so businesses can port their applications to a mobile device. I don't see a consumer play here at all. If I want desktop applications I'll use my Surface Pro and not some tiny low power mobile device.
    There's nothing to port. Any Win32 prog you have laying around will do. This is not meant to replace anything, but it will do away with lugging around a laptop for remote locations especially since you can't make phone calls from a Surface Pro. If you've ever used any of the UMPCs from 10 years ago which had 7" resistive displays (I had the Samsung Q1 Ultra), this will make perfect sense.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    12-09-2016 09:10 PM
  3. Wolfjt's Avatar
    There's nothing to port. Any Win32 prog you have laying around will do. This is not meant to replace anything, but it will do away with lugging around a laptop for remote locations especially since you can't make phone calls from a Surface Pro. If you've ever used any of the UMPCs from 10 years ago which had 7" resistive displays (I had the Samsung Q1 Ultra), this will make perfect sense.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    There will have to be work done to fit to screen size and such, I can't believe it'll be a 1 to 1 type of experience. We will see, Continum has had zero play in business as it is. There is zero demand for UWP apps in the enterprise. I don't want to be a negative Nelly and I'll be open minded. We'll see how it goes, I just can't see wanting to run x86 on Arm, time will tell that's for sure.
    12-09-2016 09:15 PM
  4. fatclue_98's Avatar
    There will have to be work done to fit to screen size and such, I can't believe it'll be a 1 to 1 type of experience. We will see, Continum has had zero play in business as it is. There is zero demand for UWP apps in the enterprise. I don't want to be a negative Nelly and I'll be open minded. We'll see how it goes, I just can't see wanting to run x86 on Arm, time will tell that's for sure.
    As I mentioned, there have been XP and Vista-based PCs running on 7" screens. Been there and done that. The UWP apps are not even necessary. If you're not using them now on your PC, you won't need them later. This is a full Windows 10 OS we're talking about. It's not an emulation, it's the real deal. I completely disagree with the notion this is going to be for Enterprise only. The full weight of a Windows OS on a handheld device that has full telephony will be especially worthwhile in developing countries or even for the less fortunate right here at home. This is a game changer. You may not want to run x86 on ARM but there are many more who would, if not by sheer necessity.
    12-09-2016 09:44 PM
  5. Wolfjt's Avatar
    As I mentioned, there have been XP and Vista-based PCs running on 7" screens. Been there and done that. The UWP apps are not even necessary. If you're not using them now on your PC, you won't need them later. This is a full Windows 10 OS we're talking about. It's not an emulation, it's the real deal. I completely disagree with the notion this is going to be for Enterprise only. The full weight of a Windows OS on a handheld device that has full telephony will be especially worthwhile in developing countries or even for the less fortunate right here at home. This is a game changer. You may not want to run x86 on ARM but there are many more who would, if not by sheer necessity.
    I'll leave it with this. I know it's full blown Windows. My point about Continum and UWP apps is, they weren't enough to raise interest in the enterprise there was and is no demand for it. Have you ever used a low power laptop and experience how horrible it is to use? I can't see ARM being any different, that's all I'm saying. We shall see.
    12-09-2016 10:01 PM
  6. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    This really does open a world of interesting things.....
    HP and the X3 could fold the x86 emulation into Continuum + have the web portal for work. The chips can handle it now they just need to roll up their sleeves and do the work.
    A phone + dock + mouse for a mobile worker will be better on the budget in the long run.

    I know many will say "It lacks the Power to do x86 work", however I work in the real world, a CFO will call for new equipment at less cost, no matter what IT will claim they then have to find a way to make it work.

    Companies are tight on spending, and this I know first hand...as the company I am with now runs it's welding robots from 3.5" Floppy.....none of them are connected the network, which could provide updates to programs so much faster. I would say 90% of the control units run Win95 at the core, under a custom shell.

    My prior company also in the auto parts field, was still rolling out Windows 7 to work stations as "Brand New" when Windows 8.1 was rolling out.

    Upper management does not understand tech, but they do understand Dollar amounts.....their wonderful saying is....."You wanted New, here it is, now make it work!"
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    12-10-2016 02:38 AM
  7. Ivan05il's Avatar
    Using phone for presentations with your customer's TV, there's something cheap about it there. If you want to impress, make an effort, bring your own equipment, use HoloLens instead, I'd say. I rather wonder what Intel people think about it. For MS it's the same, a Windows license for a license, but Intel will see a decline on the low end of their range.
    12-10-2016 03:25 AM
  8. JaimitoFrog's Avatar
    Originally posted by Ivan05il
    Using phone for presentations with your customer's TV, there's something cheap about it there. If you want to impress, make an effort, bring your own equipment, use HoloLens instead, I'd say. I rather wonder what Intel people think about it. For MS it's the same, a Windows license for a license, but Intel will see a decline on the low end of their range.
    A HoloLens type interface will be the ultimate mobile continuum. You can have a big screen experience without carrying or using a large screen. Sharing will require you to have two goggles I guess. But that might be what the Surface Phone/Mobile will be like. A handheld device with MR interface as option. With Win10 on ARMs, a Hololens can be made smaller, and last longer on battery, built in wifi, BT, GPS, LTE etc.
    12-10-2016 09:32 AM
  9. Joe920's Avatar
    So remember a year ago when Rubino, Thurrott etc all were saying 'omg we have seen the future, WP lives!!' followed by absolute silence? Have we finally seen what that was all about?
    libra89 and Pynchmail like this.
    12-10-2016 09:56 AM
  10. nate0's Avatar
    I don't think it actually runs on the 820 soc. The wording is very precise. The same "CPU" as the 820. The 820 is a soc which combines multiple things including a CPU. Sure it may run on the kryo cpu but it's possible the SOC contains a separate component that was developed by MS to go into newer qualcomm models. Or something else on the silicon that can make the emulation faster. If it's all done at the software layer there's no real need to even involve qualcomm in the process for compatibility.
    This is where I see this being exclusive to Microsoft in some way. Maybe in patents or other areas.
    12-10-2016 02:57 PM
  11. Pynchmail's Avatar
    This is where I see this being exclusive to Microsoft in some way. Maybe in patents or other areas.
    This is an interesting take on the processor. However, I feel that MS will not be complicating matter at this stage. They are hoping to have wider choice of chip sets running Windows 10 so that OEMs will be better able to produce affordable mobile devices that will increase market share. The partnering with Qualcomm is a marketing exercise as Qualcomm is the largest, with H1 2016 Antutu benchmark market share of almost 50%, and has the most powerful ARM chip. If MS were to show Windows 10 ARM without Qualcomm, it doesn't sound as imminent and raises the question of whether there is a processor that can support the OS.
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    12-10-2016 06:17 PM
  12. nate0's Avatar
    This is an interesting take on the processor. However, I feel that MS will not be complicating matter at this stage. They are hoping to have wider choice of chip sets running Windows 10 so that OEMs will be better able to produce affordable mobile devices that will increase market share. The partnering with Qualcomm is a marketing exercise as Qualcomm is the largest, with H1 2016 Antutu benchmark market share of almost 50%, and has the most powerful ARM chip. If MS were to show Windows 10 ARM without Qualcomm, it doesn't sound as imminent and raises the question of whether there is a processor that can support the OS.
    I'd be interested in seeing a flow chart or visio of how they have this built...
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    12-10-2016 06:27 PM
  13. Pynchmail's Avatar
    I'd be interested in seeing a flow chart or visio of how they have this built...
    10 years ago when Apple moved to Intel x86 processors from Motorola's PowerPC processors, they included a dynamic binary translator known as Rosetta in Mac OS X that allows old PowerPC applications to run on new Mac OS X. They managed to get up to 80% efficiency compared to running natively on PowerPC processors. So Windows 10 ARM could be something similar.
    Shamshi-Adad and nate0 like this.
    12-10-2016 06:41 PM
  14. nate0's Avatar
    10 years ago when Apple moved to Intel x86 processors from Motorola's PowerPC processors, they included a dynamic binary translator known as Rosetta in Mac OS X that allows old PowerPC applications to run on new Mac OS X. They managed to get up to 80% efficiency compared to running natively on PowerPC processors. So Windows 10 ARM could be something similar.
    True. Exponentially better I hope given that was 10 years ago.
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    12-11-2016 02:44 AM
  15. alodar101's Avatar
    Would be nice to see them make it run on older devices such as Surface RT or even the Lumia 950XL. Probably requires too much resources and speed for that though.
    Why? its the backward compatibility that makes it so hard. Especially an RT? That barely worked well when it was new. I'd like to see it work on the XL, but I would also love to see it NOT compromised by attempting to go backwards. Ideal CPU is 825...X3 has an 820...the xl is an 810(?). When features/stability must be compromised to get it to go backwards.
    12-14-2016 09:19 AM
  16. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    So remember a year ago when Rubino, Thurrott etc all were saying 'omg we have seen the future, WP lives!!' followed by absolute silence? Have we finally seen what that was all about?
    That was during/after the Elite x3 briefing. The idea of Win10 on ARM was still just rumor at that point and nothing was shared about that.
    Joe920 and libra89 like this.
    12-14-2016 10:42 AM
  17. Joe920's Avatar
    That was during/after the Elite x3 briefing. The idea of Win10 on ARM was still just rumor at that point and nothing was shared about that.
    Hey, thanks for clarifying this!!! At the time there was so much excitement, so it stayed in the back of my mind. So I take it you guys were all excited by the HP Workspace? Or just because it was a nice phone from a major vendor?

    Personally I find the full Win10 on ARM (aka Windows RT, Unleashed!) much more exciting, so I'm kind of glad you only clarified after we heard the latest news. :)
    12-14-2016 10:47 AM
  18. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    A little off topic however, I do hope XDA crew or someone find a way to hack this to the arm based Surface/ RT Tablets.
    12-15-2016 11:47 AM
  19. PerfectReign's Avatar
    Enjoy what you have today and don't worry about what's next. Negative and miserable ain't no way to go through life.
    good point!

    Sent from mTalk
    12-15-2016 05:40 PM
  20. vEEP pEEP's Avatar
    So help me out here.
    Does this address the app gap?
    Does this mean apps will be written for ARM and x86? Will phones be running an emulator for x86?
    Does this mean W10=W10M?
    Thanks,

    Mr. V
    12-21-2016 03:03 PM
  21. Kogling's Avatar
    Does this address the app gap?
    Yes and no.

    You'll get to run x86 applications, but the majority of these aren't "phone friendly" so it's not really going to address the "app gap" when we talk about applications available for a phone. In terms of tablets, majority of applications won't be "touch friendly" too, but this would be no different to the current Surface pro line i.e. fairly insignificant and bearable.

    It will probably be better on the tablet side of things (i.e. less of an app gap because of emulation), but probably not for phones since the application ranges and usages are quite distant. And desktops never had an app gap to begin with.

    Assuming it's all emulated in software, the performance degradation will also mean native ARM counterparts will perform better, and some x86 won't emulate at a usable level.

    Does this mean apps will be written for ARM and x86?
    Applications targeted for ARM architectures should continue being written for that architecture. x86 applications will still be written aimed towards x86. Some languages and toolsets allow targeting multiple platforms from one code base, in which case, they would have two compilations (arm and x86) and need not make use of emulation.

    They would not be mixing x86 code with ARM code. In theory, they could if they needed to use a 3rd party library written elsewhere, but the idea here is to make applications only available on x86 architectures working for ARM, not for developers to create x86 targeted specifically for ARM.

    We may see developers create x86 applications that know they are being emulated on ARM (WOW64 allows this) and maybe alter how they function (make phone orientation friendly, for example) but since most programming solutions allow for compilation into both x86 and ARM, somewhat pointless.

    Will phones be running an emulator for x86?
    I'm inclined to believe it's software emulation so yes. Others are inclined to say there's some hardware involved, and so no to a varying degree.

    Basically, there's no solid confirmation on how it's done yet.
    libra89 and vEEP pEEP like this.
    12-22-2016 08:13 AM
  22. Sedp23's Avatar
    So when can we expect the first lower priced snapdragon 2 in 1 tablets?

    Sent from Idol 4s with Windows
    12-22-2016 02:24 PM
  23. vEEP pEEP's Avatar
    @Kogling - Thanks for your answer!

    It seems like we are going towards two diverging OSes....that seem about right?


    Yes and no.

    You'll get to run x86 applications, but the majority of these aren't "phone friendly" so it's not really going to address the "app gap" when we talk about applications available for a phone. In terms of tablets, majority of applications won't be "touch friendly" too, but this would be no different to the current Surface pro line i.e. fairly insignificant and bearable.

    It will probably be better on the tablet side of things (i.e. less of an app gap because of emulation), but probably not for phones since the application ranges and usages are quite distant. And desktops never had an app gap to begin with.

    Assuming it's all emulated in software, the performance degradation will also mean native ARM counterparts will perform better, and some x86 won't emulate at a usable level.

    Applications targeted for ARM architectures should continue being written for that architecture. x86 applications will still be written aimed towards x86. Some languages and toolsets allow targeting multiple platforms from one code base, in which case, they would have two compilations (arm and x86) and need not make use of emulation.

    They would not be mixing x86 code with ARM code. In theory, they could if they needed to use a 3rd party library written elsewhere, but the idea here is to make applications only available on x86 architectures working for ARM, not for developers to create x86 targeted specifically for ARM.

    We may see developers create x86 applications that know they are being emulated on ARM (WOW64 allows this) and maybe alter how they function (make phone orientation friendly, for example) but since most programming solutions allow for compilation into both x86 and ARM, somewhat pointless.

    I'm inclined to believe it's software emulation so yes. Others are inclined to say there's some hardware involved, and so no to a varying degree.

    Basically, there's no solid confirmation on how it's done yet.
    12-22-2016 06:33 PM
  24. Kogling's Avatar
    It seems like we are going towards two diverging OSes....that seem about right?
    I honestly don't follow the Windows scene enough to really know what Microsoft is planning, I just grab occasional glimpses of information from here and elsewhere.

    But in terms of ARM /x86 architectures and emulation, I can at least say I believe it will be software emulation, that an ARM counterpart will always be faster than it's emulated variety (providing it's always ran as JiT and not a hard conversion), and that even if the feature is enabled for phones, the practicality of using the phone's screen instead of continuum will mostly ensure the "app gap" will stay relatively consistent, simply making a phone more of a portable PC than a "x86 apps for phone" type of feature.

    Of course, no doubt we will see x86 developers make x86 applications intended for phones even though they likely have the option to compile out into an ARM image... Some people will probably see it as a means of getting out of the sandbox restrictions and whatnot.

    Microsoft has been investing in the "IoT" scene, and with the mobile scene and now x86 emulation (and the ARM windows OS of Surface RT lines) I'm guessing their main incentive is "Windows on everything"
    12-24-2016 05:54 PM
  25. Iain_S's Avatar
    The Qualcomm guy had the X3 running with this new x64ARM OS, so we can keep our fingers crossed.
    12-31-2016 06:02 PM
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